Pokemon vs Great Red Wyrm

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-21 02:24pm

BlackWarMewtwo wrote:
SAMAS wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Hell in D&D world psychic attack aren't exactly the most reliabel and still one of you most powerful is up against a beign who has lived for hundreds of years, has enourmous defense, and is capable of making most human mages at their most powerful look like pansies.
True, in D&D, Psychics are unreliable.

In Pokemon,[/i] however, the're among the most powerful in the game, and the more powerful ones essentially warp reality.

Which would definitely hint that the dragon's normal defenses against psychic manipulation aren't going to be as effective, since they were tailored for someone weaker.

Ah, this ridiculous argument. Dragonic resistance goes up to the Wish spell, which trumps everything in Pokemon.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-21 02:26pm

I see so when cannot explain the The time stop...go now to Psis

Oh wait...Dragon and other larger(who have undefinable age) can learn psi as well.

Oh and better still Psi are made for virtually any race, not just weaker...prove beyond your own words that a Great Wyrm Psi user is the same as a 10th level human.

What would MewTwo rate...a (15~20) level psi, vs a creature who has learned how to deflect and shield his/her own mind from such attacks hundreds of years ago and has natural defense against that sort of attack.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2002-11-21 05:27pm

BlackWarMewtwo wrote: Which would definitely hint that the dragon's normal defenses against psychic manipulation aren't going to be as effective, since they were tailored for someone weaker.

Dragons defense against Psi is always the same. Psi unsing creatures
tend to be away more powerfull than the typical lowlevel human with
psi powers. MewToo isn't in the same league as the dragons most
powerfull opponents e.g. Solars, Abyssal Lords other dragons ...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-21 06:47pm

Let's face it, Smaug is a wimp compared to a D&D red of the same age. Still with his invulnerability, Fear, the ability to see invisible, The Flame breath, and claws and teeth that CAN injure non corpreal things (Like Wraiths and Wights) There isn't much that can stop one.

Now your average D&D dragon, has this plus magic, plus encreadable resistances, plus dragon breath is also magically charged, so even if your immune to fire, you still take damage from dragon fire.

Now you want Even Dave Dragavon from the Ironwood fantasy porn series, would scare the shit out of the normal inhabitants (Inhuman strength on par with Superheroes), reflexes, Invulnerable to fire including dragon fire, physical resistance (Magical weapons needed to hurt him), Oh and he's still stuck in human form until he matures in about 5 centures)

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-21 11:01pm

*Dragon casts timestop, then proceeds to cast spells that dont use will saves, like disintegrate, finger of death, magic missile(one spell that the pokemon CANT dodge) melfs acid arrow, meteor swarm, fireball, chain lighting cone of cold, flesh to stone, stone to mud, polymorph, prismatic spray. Then when the pokemon is reduce to 100 hp power word kill(no save)

Or he could just cast magic missile a shit load of times and do a lovely... 7560 dammage in one round under timestop without the use of the multi-spell feat. Either way, mewtwo dies. He cant dodge that spell, and it will pass right through his psi-shields

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2002-11-21 11:03pm

For reference:

3rd Edition Monster Manual wrote:Red Dragon
Dragon (Fire)

...

Combat
Because red dragons are so confident, they seldom pause to appraise an adversary. On spotting a target they make a snap decision whether to attack, using one of many strategies worked out ahead of time. A red dragon lands to attack small, weak creatures with its claws and bites rather than obliterating them with its breath weapon, so as not to destroy and treasure they might be carrying.

- Breath Weapon (Su): A red dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of fire.

- Fire Subtype (Ex): Fire immunity, double damage from cold except on a successful save.

- Locate Object (Sp): The dragon can use this ability as the spell of the same name, once per day per age category.

- Other Spell-like Abilities: 3/day - suggestion; 1/day - eyebite and discern location.

- Skills: Red dragons have the Jump skill for free at 1 rank per Hit Die.

Red Dragons by Age:
Age ----------- Size --Hit Dice (hp)--- AC--- Attack Bonus---Fort---Ref--Will
...
Great Wyrm--- C -----40d12 (660)--- 41 -------+49---------+32--+22--+30

[Breath Weapon: 24d10, DC for half damage 40; Fear DC 38; Spell Resist. 32]

Red Dragon Abilities by Age
Age------- Speed ------ Str--Dex-- Con -Int --Wis --Cha -Spec.Abil. CastLvl
...
Grt Wyrm -40ft (fly 200)45--10 ---- 31 --26 -- 27 -- 26 -- DR 20/+3 --19th
*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-21 11:48pm

Any "smart" dragon will of course at this point have levels of sorcerer as a character class under his/her scaly belt. Tese would stack with the sorcerer levels he/she already has naturaly, they would also use spels to alter ability scores.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-22 09:21am

We also worry about really smart dragons who adopt "Pets" to help in their defense....

You have never faced a dragon, until you see one who knows how to use lesser creatures to mine more treasure for it, and defend it's home to their deaths.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-11-22 09:58am

SirNitram wrote:
BlackWarMewtwo wrote:
SAMAS wrote: True, in D&D, Psychics are unreliable.

In Pokemon,[/i] however, the're among the most powerful in the game, and the more powerful ones essentially warp reality.

Which would definitely hint that the dragon's normal defenses against psychic manipulation aren't going to be as effective, since they were tailored for someone weaker.

Ah, this ridiculous argument. Dragonic resistance goes up to the Wish spell, which trumps everything in Pokemon.

Go watch Spell of the Unoun, and say that again.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-11-22 10:17am

Ghost Rider wrote:Hell I'm waiting to hear SAMAS' response against the Soul Steal, and Polymorph spells

Soul-taking is something done by Ghost Pokemon way back in the first season.

In the anime, a wild Haunter pulled Ash and Pikachu's souls from their bodies.

In the Manga, Sabrina(Saffron City Gym Leader and the most powerful human Psychic(This is a girl who, in the anime, turned people into dolls, and made her house implode when she was six)) had her soul stolen by a massive Haunter(was once worshipped as a god). That didn't stop her from using her powers to help Ash and a group of hunters in battling the Haunter.

Polymorph is again, a spell he can fight through his power and force of will. And if you tried it on a Mew, it would be equally useless, as one of Mew's abilities is to transform. Turn him into a bird, or rock, he turns himself into you, with all your abilities.

Let alone Time Stop.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-11-22 10:22am

Ghost Rider wrote:It nice to see someone who cannot understand what they hell time stop is, and have another spew something else.

You both know what Time Stop entails?

Right?

Unless you're now saying MewTwo is a diety(not diety like...a straight I can do things no mortal being can...and oh wait wasn't the little gimp created?)

He can, and has, done things no mortal being can.

And he wasn't created, he was cloned from the fossil of a Mew's eyelash. Mew was not created by anybody.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-22 10:26am

Christ.

Scry ----> Maximized Yugman's Wildfire -----> Dead Mewtwo.

Can't see the dragon to kill him.

Your only defense is that Mewtwo's will is beyond a normal human. Player characters aren't exactly normal humans. And all the dragon needs to do is turn invisible and use nondetection and wehere will Mewtwo be?
Up shit creek without a paddle, that's where.

Dracoliches are also immune to psi, if you want to use them. And being able to create minor elemental effects does not in any way save you from dragon's breath (though I consider it wimpy compared to what powerful wizards can do).

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-22 10:53am

Not bad, I think my first foray into this, was pointing out that the Dragon spells in Arduin version of 1st edition AD&D allows the dragon to make specteral attacks for ungodly amout of damage through their own scyring tools.

That's not counting desolation of the Wyrm (read dispoils/kills everything for about a mile or so)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-22 11:58am

Nice of SAMAS to back up my MEWTWO was created....thank you

And yes Bear...nice going with the 1st edition rules...ah the Dragon truly a piece of work isn't she

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-22 03:17pm

Dude AD&D has been getting watered down ever since 1st edition.

BlackWarMewtwo · Post by **BlackWarMewtwo** » 2002-11-23 01:14am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I will assume he gets a +12 (as per 20th level psion) to his will save,

Well, Mewtwo isn't, exactly, a 20th level psion, that's just speculation.

To convert the dragon into pokemon terms, he'd be a fire/dragon type with the most powerful attacks. Due to his age, which matches that of Lugia, Ho-oh, and the legendary dogs; between 40 and 70. Mewtwo himself is level 70, so at the very least they'd be evenly matched.

But, of course, that's only if we translate the different game systems.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-23 01:24am

That level of conversion is hogwash...you basically strip the dragon of everything to make MewTwo seem more a representative of combat skills.

The Red Dragon already supercedes most normal mortals and continues a legacy of knowledge, to say that a overblown rooster for a boy vs a 100 year old monester of near unequaled power is akin to saying let's reduce a ISD to ST terms.

Accept that they may be of different universe but the Red Dragon has shown much more powerful effects and has a far greater arsenal than what Pokemon did. It's akin to going the Enterprise can take on the ISD but I have to slot one into another universe because that's the only way I can make my argument work.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2002-11-23 01:55am

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Dude AD&D has been getting watered down ever since 1st edition.

WHAAAAAAT!? Try reading the 3rd Editon Epic Level Handbook, and flip to "Dragon, Epic: Prismatic Dragon" go down the page until you get to Challenge Rating, find great wyrm. It reads "66".

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-23 02:06am

Although the Attribute boosting is nice, little things like the assassins instant kill, or the fact that spells didn't use to have level caps. or all of the classes you had to be to become a Bard, playing a Balrog/Firegiant hybrid. Cood evil things.

BlackWarMewtwo · Post by **BlackWarMewtwo** » 2002-11-23 02:25am

Ghost Rider wrote:That level of conversion is hogwash...you basically strip the dragon of everything to make MewTwo seem more a representative of combat skills.

The Red Dragon already supercedes most normal mortals and continues a legacy of knowledge, to say that a overblown rooster for a boy vs a 100 year old monester of near unequaled power is akin to saying let's reduce a ISD to ST terms.

I took into account the age. The Legendaries and Lugia and Ho-oh are hundreds of years old and have hundreds of years experience, and Mewtwo's skill and power trumps them.

And maybe Mewtwo isn't a level 20 Psion

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-23 04:04am

JediNeophyte wrote:
THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Dude AD&D has been getting watered down ever since 1st edition.
WHAAAAAAT!? Try reading the 3rd Editon Epic Level Handbook, and flip to "Dragon, Epic: Prismatic Dragon" go down the page until you get to Challenge Rating, find great wyrm. It reads "66".

Force Dragon is more powerful IMO. Cone of force (hits ethereal targets, die ghostie boy) does 60d12, Reflex half DC 72. Naturally invisible with displacement field and spellcasting. Prismatic Dragon's improvement is incremental and breath weapon sux0r.

And if it's a Paragon Force Dragon... eheheh

To wit, even a level 70 psyker will lose... to Mind Blank! No domination or detections, thank you very much. Plus, when an invisible creature attacks Mewtwo, he gets no Dex bonus to AC. Since Mewtwo has no natural armor to speak of... Mewtwo dies horribly.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2002-11-25 05:34am

Stellar Dragons are pretty funny too.

1000 km(Great Wyrm some older dragons are
said to be millions of km long) long.
Internal Sphere of anhillation.
Can cast any wizard/sorcerer spell and it is able to combine/modify
them as it wants
Can cast an unlimited number of spells per round.

They are normaly unintrested in mortal afairs. They are only
intrested in knowledge/information telling them lies/misinformation
is the best method to piss them off.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 08:22am

Thunderfire wrote:Stellar Dragons are pretty funny too.

1000 km(Great Wyrm some older dragons are
said to be millions of km long) long.
Internal Sphere of anhillation.
Can cast any wizard/sorcerer spell and it is able to combine/modify
them as it wants
Can cast an unlimited number of spells per round.

They are normaly unintrested in mortal afairs. They are only
intrested in knowledge/information telling them lies/misinformation
is the best method to piss them off.

What the hell kind of cheap-ass dragon is this?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-25 10:53am

Sounds like the uber munchkin dragon for what it sounds.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 10:54am

I trick Ao into blowing it up. No dragon, no problem.