Fundie Logic, Aggression and Mindset (FLAM)

[Mouseychan]

My personal fav tactic is to point out all the horrible God condoned things in the Bible. Such as rape, murder and all that.

[Enforcer Talen]

but sometimes you run into the serious fundies who endorse it, ala phelps, falwell and robertson.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Are there any good sources for contradictions\fuck ups in the new testament or Koran for the next time i see an Fundie christian\Muslem nutjob?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

My personal fav tactic is to point out all the horrible God condoned things in the Bible. Such as rape, murder and all that.

Except there are people who genuinely believe that murder is okay if God orders it, since obviously anyone God wants to die, like the "fags" and "Sodomites" and the "baby-killers," must be hell-bound sinners anyway.

There are people who believe that it was okay for the small children to be killed by God, because they're 'pure' and they're going straight to heaven anyway.

Jonathan Boyd, featured on Mike Wong's hatemail page is a prime example of this sort of fundamentalist.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Are there any good sources for contradictions\fuck ups in the new testament or Koran for the next time i see an Fundie christian\Muslem nutjob?

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is your friend. And it now also has the Quran, and the Book of Mormon.

[wolveraptor]

Okay, sue me. I'm too lazy to sludge through the tripe that is the book of Mormon. Can someone outline Mormon beliefs real quick? My only source of info so far has been South Park.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Okay, sue me. I'm too lazy to sludge through the tripe that is the book of Mormon. Can someone outline Mormon beliefs real quick? My only source of info so far has been South Park.

Gee, where to start... Jesus appearing in America, eternal celestial reproduction, ooooh don't forget the sacred underwear!

[wolveraptor]

According to South Park, they believe the Native Americans were Jews, and some Joseph Martin guy looked into a hat and read some shit, but couldn't repeat it word for word. Yet some how they still believe it.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, sue me. I'm too lazy to sludge through the tripe that is the book of Mormon. Can someone outline Mormon beliefs real quick? My only source of info so far has been South Park.

Among other utterly preposterous claims, the Book of Mormon claims that white people lived here in North America and built a huge technologically advanced civilization long before Columbus appeared. But it all fell apart and disappeared without a trace when they sinned against God.

[wolveraptor]

Okay, quick check: Is mormonism a cult, like Scientology, or is it a real religion? I have more respect for religions whose founders were sincere, and really believed in what they were saying.

[Nephtys]

Okay, quick check: Is mormonism a cult, like Scientology, or is it a real religion? I have more respect for religions whose founders were sincere, and really believed in what they were saying.

Let me explain it this way. It's made by a man who used a magic hat to get his visions, one of which is that it's perfectly okay for him to have twelve wives, and unless you're a good and obeeeedient wife, you won't go to heaven unless your husband wants you. Oh, and there were super techno-white people who lived here, and rode animals and had technology there was no trace left.

It's basically Scientology Version 1, with ancient cultures instead of... Space Emperor.

[Zero]

Actually, I'd say Scientology is almost more feasable then mormonism. We know where native americans came from. Some bullshit about thetans and some dipshit space emporer can't really be disproven, but mormonism has been. Both are really just fucking stupid...

[wolveraptor]

Okay, this is what I've got so far.

In some random town in the US, some Joseph Martin guy looks in a hat and has some revalations, but he can't repeat it word for word when asked to read it again. Among these revalations are:

1. There was a race of former super technowankers that lived in North America but were destroyed by God because they were sinful.

2. There Jews somehow managed to migrate to the new world, and were what we thought were Native Americans.

3. Mormonism is seriously fucked up.

I'd been operating under the assumption that Mormonism was actually a facet of Christianity. I guess I was wrong. Do they even have Jesus in their pantheon?

[Surlethe]

I'd been operating under the assumption that Mormonism was actually a facet of Christianity. I guess I was wrong. Do they even have Jesus in their pantheon?

I thought of Mormonism more like a cousin to Christianity, or a bastard stepchild, in classifying religions by family.

If a religion acknowledges Jesus as son of God/messiah, they are Christian, despite whatever else baggage they carry. Thus, as the

6:14 And behold, according to the words of the prophet, the Messiah will set himself again the second time to recover them; wherefore, he will manifest himself unto them in power and great glory, unto the destruction of their enemies, when that day cometh when they shall believe in him; and none will he destroy that believe in him.
6:15 And they that believe not in him shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.

[Darth Servo]

I'd been operating under the assumption that Mormonism was actually a facet of Christianity. I guess I was wrong. Do they even have Jesus in their pantheon?

It is a sect of Christianity. The subtitle of the Book of Mormon is "Another testament of Jesus Christ" However ridiculous some of the book's claims are, it is undeniable that the people described in it believed in and worshiped Jesus and the full name of the Mormon Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Darth Wong]

I'd been operating under the assumption that Mormonism was actually a facet of Christianity. I guess I was wrong. Do they even have Jesus in their pantheon?

It is a sect of Christianity. The subtitle of the Book of Mormon is "Another testament of Jesus Christ" However ridiculous some of the book's claims are, it is undeniable that the people described in it believed in and worshiped Jesus and the full name of the Mormon Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Its claims are really no more preposterous than those of standard Christianity; the reason people more freely scoff at them is the fact that Mormonism is largely a regional phenomenon, and people haven't been conditioned to treat it with kid gloves.

Is it wildly unrealistic to have 100 million technologically advanced white people living in North America a thousand years ago who disappeared without a trace? Yes. But no more unrealistic than 1 million Jews wandering through the desert outside Egypt for 40 years without leaving so much as a single campsite or burial ground for archaeologists to find.

[Darth Servo]

Its claims are really no more preposterous than those of standard Christianity;

And I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying Mormonism IS a Christian religion.

[Darth Servo]

unless you're a good and obeeeedient wife, you won't go to heaven unless your husband wants you.

Such an asshole husband would never get into heaven in the first place. If one's usband doesn't make it, the wife CAN chose another.

[wolveraptor]

If mormonism is anything like regular Christianity, then it doesn't matter how much of an asshole you are, so long as you suddenly under go some deathbed repent, and accept Jebus in to your heart.

[Darth Servo]

If mormonism is anything like regular Christianity, then it doesn't matter how much of an asshole you are, so long as you suddenly under go some deathbed repent, and accept Jebus in to your heart.

In that manner, its not. Deathbed repentance is not seen as true repentance. There must be a true change of heart in the process. And Mormons certainloy aren't your typical "just believe and be saved" Christians. In Mormon theology, Faith in Jesus is only the first step.

[wolveraptor]

Good. That's one of the aspects of Christianity I found disgusting.

[Civil War Man]

If mormonism is anything like regular Christianity, then it doesn't matter how much of an asshole you are, so long as you suddenly under go some deathbed repent, and accept Jebus in to your heart.

In that manner, its not. Deathbed repentance is not seen as true repentance. There must be a true change of heart in the process. And Mormons certainloy aren't your typical "just believe and be saved" Christians. In Mormon theology, Faith in Jesus is only the first step.

IIRC, there are cases of missionaries baptizing dead people in order to make them posthumous mormons.

[Surlethe]

If mormonism is anything like regular Christianity, then it doesn't matter how much of an asshole you are, so long as you suddenly under go some deathbed repent, and accept Jebus in to your heart.

In that manner, its not. Deathbed repentance is not seen as true repentance. There must be a true change of heart in the process. And Mormons certainloy aren't your typical "just believe and be saved" Christians. In Mormon theology, Faith in Jesus is only the first step.

IIRC, there are cases of missionaries baptizing dead people in order to make them posthumous mormons.

You're right!

LttP

Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.

"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

[Coyote]

Okay, sue me. I'm too lazy to sludge through the tripe that is the book of Mormon. Can someone outline Mormon beliefs real quick? My only source of info so far has been South Park.

Mormonism: Behold. Reprinted from an earlier post. Because this is just too rich to pass up.

Mormonism in a Nutshell. Or a Magic Hat
Theoretically, a Hebrew family, headed by a scribe named Nephi settled in America, fleeing from the Romans, IIRC. They colonized the US and their descendants split into two groups-- those that stayed faithful to the teachings of God (Nephites) and those that turned away from God and refuted his church.

The ones that turned from God were "cursed with dark skin" and became the Lamanites ("Indians"). Eventually there was a war between the Nephites and Lamanites, and the Lamanites won. There were two Nephite survivors: Mormon and his son, Moroni. Mormon was killed and Moroni went into hiding where he told the story of his father's people in the Book of Mormon, which he inscribed on gold tablets.

Hundreds of years later, a fellow named Joseph Smith in New York State was dabbling in the Occult. He was into witches and soothsaying, etc, and met up with a girl who had a "seeing stone". She taught him to put the stone in a hat, and bury his face in it so that no light came in, and he could see whatever mystical truths he was seeking.

Okay, so picture a grown man with his face in a hat, stumbling around looking for ghosts. Whatever.

So in a dream, Moroni (now an angel of God) comes to Smith and tells him of the gold tablets, where to find them, etc. Smith finds the tablets and "magic spectacles" that enable him to read the sorta-Egyptian-like writing on them. Moroni won't let him take the tablets with him until he is "pure" enough, part of it means getting married.

Smith convinces a girl to marry him (I think it was his chick with the seeing-stones but I don't remember) and they get the tablets and show them to 11 other people who become Smith's disciples. Smith partially translates the tablets and give sthe translation to one of his disciples to study.

It gets better.

The disciples wife is infuriated that her husbands is wasting his time and destroyes the manuscript. Moroni starts taking the tablets away because he thinks Smith is being irresponsible with them. Smith begs Moroni to let him copy more of the tablets. Moroni lets Smith have the tablets but-- minus the ones that were already copied (of which the copies were destroyed) and without the magic spectacles that allowed him to read the inscriptions.

So Smith uses his stone-in-the-hat-trick to translate the rest, while his friend dictates. (So now you have a grown man with his face in a hat leaning over some tablets, "reading" them while his friend very seriously writes down whatever the dude mumbles).

Thus is the Book of Mormon born.

The polygamy angle came much later, with Smith as the Mormon Church's "Revelator, Seer, and Prophet". Smith had some 135 "Revealtions" from God, which were recorded in "Doctrines and Covenant", the second-most important book of the Church. Revelation 132 said that no man could get into heaven without a plurality of wives, and it started a polygamy custom that horrified other US citizens to the point of lynching Smith shortly afterwards.

The polygamy Revelation was revoked in the 1880's, IIRC, so as to avert a war with the US government over it. Still, several fundamentalist Mormon breakaway groups insist that it is the "will of God" and practice polygamy, frequently in little enclaves and among their stepdaughters, nieces, half-sisters, and so on.

(Jon Krakauer, "Under the Banner of Heaven", Anchor Books, 2003.)

[wolveraptor]

So the Mormons think dark skin is a curse. Nice. But where does Jebus fit in in all that?