Fundie Logic, Aggression and Mindset (FLAM)

[The Grim Squeaker]

Moroni the Moron .
Does it count as a cult or religion (the only real difference between the two is numbers)

[Coyote]

Oh, the Jesus angle-- forgot.

Jesus was, indeed, the messiah of God but according to the Mormons, his ministry died out about 40 years after his death. People took the name "Christian" and believed they were following the teachings of Jesus, but the church quickly became corrupted and lost its proper way.

Those who did live and follow a pure and proper life were the Nephites, but they were killed by the Lamanaites... God's ministry went un-worhipped until Joseph Smith was deemed pure and righteous enough to have it revealed to him (musta been the hat).

Technically, in LDS (Latter-Day Saints) philosophy, Joseph Smith is the more important messiah, since his ministry is still going dtrong well over 100 years now. Jesus is held in respect because he was the original messiah, and it's not his fault that humanity was too uncomprehending to properly receive the meesage of God.

But it's all moot, since in Mormonism, you can baptize the dead and make them Mormons posthumously. In Mormon afterlife, there is no "Hell". There are 7 planes of heaven, 7th being the best of all things for proper Mormons, 1st level heaven being a beautiful place, land of milk and honey and wishes and dreams, etc.... if you are "bad" or never become a Mormon, you'll probably start out at 1st Heaven. What's so bad about that? The "Hell" of it is, the knowledge that had you become a good and proper Mormon, your reqard would have been "soooo much better".

In 7th level heaven, the man gets to be a god, create his own world, and have worshippers, etc. Supposedly that's how our own God got started. Seeing what humanity puts him through I'd say it's a trap, but...

Oh, yeah-- a Mormon woman cannot ascend into the highest potential heaven unless her husband calls her up to be with him. So an unmarried Mormon woman, no matter how kind and virtuous, will languish in a least heavenly state because there was no man to reserve a place for her.

A lot of Mormon girls rush into marriage at young ages...

[Darth Servo]

Moroni the Moron .
Does it count as a cult or religion (the only real difference between the two is numbers)

cult?:
1a A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
1b The followers of such a religion or sect.
2 A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3 The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4 A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5a Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
5b The object of such devotion.
6 An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Which of those that are applicable to the Mormon church are not also applicable to every religion on the planet?

[Darth Servo]

Technically, in LDS (Latter-Day Saints) philosophy, Joseph Smith is the more important messiah, since his ministry is still going dtrong well over 100 years now. Jesus is held in respect because he was the original messiah, and it's not his fault that humanity was too uncomprehending to properly receive the meesage of God.

Not true. Jesus is the most important figure in the LDS Church. Jesus is seen as the savior of humanity, the Son of God, etc. Joseph Smith is not seen as a "messiah" at all. He is seen as a prohpet like Peter, John the Baptist, Elijah or any other in scripture. Smith was just a man called of God and not divine in any way.

But it's all moot, since in Mormonism, you can baptize the dead and make them Mormons posthumously. In Mormon afterlife, there is no "Hell". There are 7 planes of heaven, 7th being the best of all things for proper Mormons, 1st level heaven being a beautiful place, land of milk and honey and wishes and dreams, etc.... if you are "bad" or never become a Mormon, you'll probably start out at 1st Heaven. What's so bad about that? The "Hell" of it is, the knowledge that had you become a good and proper Mormon, your reqard would have been "soooo much better".

You've been reading too many fantasy books. Get your numbers right. Its not seven levels at all. After death, people are assigned to one of two places to await the resurrection. People who are Baptized for the Dead still have the freedom to accept or reject the church in the next life. After the resurrection there are FOUR major states of division, three of which are places far better than this one. The only bad one is reserved for those who have actually had visions from God and then turned against them, denied them and fought against them.

In 7th level heaven, the man gets to be a god, create his own world, and have worshippers, etc. Supposedly that's how our own God got started. Seeing what humanity puts him through I'd say it's a trap, but...

Worlds (plural). In mormon terminology, its call "eternal progression".

Oh, yeah-- a Mormon woman cannot ascend into the highest potential heaven unless her husband calls her up to be with him.

I already pointed out that this is bullshit. Try reading the thread and stop reading anti-mormon trash. BOTH women AND men need their spouse for godhood.

So an unmarried Mormon woman, no matter how kind and virtuous, will languish in a least heavenly state because there was no man to reserve a place for her.

Again, pure bullshit. Any PERSON who was unable to have eternal marriage in this life will be given the opportunity in the next.

A lot of Mormon girls rush into marriage at young ages...

BOTH genders can be said to be guilty of that.

[Coyote]

Joseph Smith is not seen as a "messiah" at all. He is seen as a prohpet like Peter, John the Baptist, Elijah or any other in scripture.

Yes, prophet, as in "Prophet, seer, revelator". I mixed the words up and that's my bad-- I should know better, so pardon the error please.

You've been reading too many fantasy books. Get your numbers right. Its not seven levels at all. ... After the resurrection there are FOUR major states of division, three of which are places far better than this one. The only bad one is reserved for those who have actually had visions from God and then turned against them, denied them and fought against them.

The seven levels figure I got was from conversations with Mormon friends here in Boise, which I hear has a different take on things than in Utah or SLC. It may surprise you to know but there are Mormons out there with different takes on things-- there are about as many LDS as there are Jews these days, and among Jews that run the gamut from bacon-eating Reform Jews to the strictest Orthodox I can find both Literal-Bible YECs to "Bible as Allegory" types.

Worlds (plural). In mormon terminology, its call "eternal progression".

Many worlds/solar systems? Huh-- more than I thought. I was under the impression it was 1 world per god.

BOTH women AND men need their spouse for godhood.

Any unmarried cannot attain the fullest potential extent of heavenly existance, correct? You say anyone who is not married on Earth can become married in the afterlife, but at the Temple open house in Boise back in the 1980's it was explained to me that your one and only shot to get married is here on temporal Earthly existence, and if you're not married by then you cannot marry spiritually afterwards.

The guy who explained this to me was an Elder in the church that was specifically made available to answer questions of the public when the Temple was built here. Has there been a doctrinal shift since then, like the one allowing the dark-skinned "Lamanites" to join the church in the 1970's?

[Darth Servo]

Yes, prophet, as in "Prophet, seer, revelator". I mixed the words up and that's my bad-- I should know better, so pardon the error please.

How did you get mixed up in thinking that Smith was greater than Jesus in Mormon theology?

The seven levels figure I got was from conversations with Mormon friends here in Boise, which I hear has a different take on things than in Utah or SLC. It may surprise you to know but there are Mormons out there with different takes on things-- there are about as many LDS as there are Jews these days, and among Jews that run the gamut from bacon-eating Reform Jews to the strictest Orthodox I can find both Literal-Bible YECs to "Bible as Allegory" types.

Well then, lets figure out what we are talking about. Are we discussing official teachings of the LDS church or what some individual member believes? Are we talking about the main church or any and all of its splinter groups?

Many worlds/solar systems? Huh-- more than I thought. I was under the impression it was 1 world per god.

May I ask where that impression comes from? In Mormon scripture it makes it clear that the God the Mormons worship has created "worlds without number".

BOTH women AND men need their spouse for godhood.

Any unmarried cannot attain the fullest potential extent of heavenly existance, correct? You say anyone who is not married on Earth can become married in the afterlife, but at the Temple open house in Boise back in the 1980's it was explained to me that your one and only shot to get married is here on temporal Earthly existence, and if you're not married by then you cannot marry spiritually afterwards.

For those who have the opportunity in this life and reject it. Not those who never did.

The guy who explained this to me was an Elder in the church that was specifically made available to answer questions of the public when the Temple was built here. Has there been a doctrinal shift since then,

Considering that the whole "work for the dead" thing INCLUDES the marriage sealing and always had, I'd say you either misunderstood what was said or he was over-simplifying for the audience.

like the one allowing the dark-skinned "Lamanites" to join the church in the 1970's?

Again, you clearly misunderstood something. No one has ever been denied membership in the church. The only racial discrimination was against blacks (Africans) and was limited to holding the priesthood and even with that, there were exceptions. An exception for a certain number of blacks was made in 1958. Joseph Smith himself had blacks in church leadership positions.

[Darth Servo]

damn, no edit:

Yes, prophet, as in "Prophet, seer, revelator". I mixed the words up and that's my bad-- I should know better, so pardon the error please.

Ok. You're pardoned.

[wolveraptor]

Wow. Mormonism is less violent and vicious than other sects. I wonder what's up with Mike's in-laws?

[Coyote]

Well, if Darth Servo is Mormon then he's in a better position to know the official answers that the current D&C holds canon. Whether there's a sect difference or something in Boise I cannot say one way or the other...

I'm in no place or desire to debate the current status of LDS doctrine and will stick with what I know about the evidence-- or lack thereof-- in regards to the existance of a Nephite civilization in America...