Why do you Hate them?

[NecronLord]

You'll have to excuse me, as I've never had the misfortune to read the DE comics, but they are entered into the likes of the EGTVV with such comments as

Designer Umak Leth was so proud of his creation that he called them "more lethal than the Death Star," though his claim proved to be a testament as much to his limitless ego as to the ships' abilities. Nonetheless, while World Devastators might take months to devour a world, the end result was profoundly terrifying.

They are presented as superweapons, if not in DE, then elsewhere.

[Noble Ire]

Did you temporarily go blind when I wrote that the technology is not new?

In any event, whether it is unoriginal or not (and before DE, it was not used in direct combat) it is still a militarily sound concept. And as for the terror it caused, let me ask you this: If an ISD BDZs a planet, does the fact that they did it frequently during the reign of Palpatine make it any less fearsome? The same concept applies to the devestators, if you see a world being devoured by a fleet of monsterous droid ships and live to report on it, fear is going to spread. If some insane admiral or criminal got his hands on a handful of ISDs and began raining down fire indescrimately on numerous worlds, fear would spread too.

[NecronLord]

In any event, whether it is unoriginal or not (and before DE, it was not used in direct combat) it is still a militarily sound concept. And as for the terror it caused, let me ask you this: If an ISD BDZs a planet, does the fact that they did it frequently during the reign of Palpatine make it any less fearsome? The same concept applies to the devestators, if you see a world being devoured by a fleet of montrous droid ships and live to report on it, fear is going to spread. If some insane admiral or criminal got his hands on a handful of ISDs and began raining down fire indescrimately on numerous worlds, fear would spread to.

Err. The idea that every other government but the Cloned Emperor is too terminally stupid to use this blatantly obvious application of the technology at their fingertips gets me. Not that someone made a Von-Neumann machine in Star Wars.

[Noble Ire]

Err. The idea that every other government but the Cloned Emperor is too terminally stupid to use this blatantly obvious application of the technology at their fingertips gets me. Not that someone made a Von-Neumann machine in Star Wars.

This is a fault of DE itself how?

[Illuminatus Primus]

In any event, whether it is unoriginal or not (and before DE, it was not used in direct combat) it is still a militarily sound concept. And as for the terror it caused, let me ask you this: If an ISD BDZs a planet, does the fact that they did it frequently during the reign of Palpatine make it any less fearsome? The same concept applies to the devestators, if you see a world being devoured by a fleet of montrous droid ships and live to report on it, fear is going to spread. If some insane admiral or criminal got his hands on a handful of ISDs and began raining down fire indescrimately on numerous worlds, fear would spread to.

Err. The idea that every other government but the Cloned Emperor is too terminally stupid to use this blatantly obvious application of the technology at their fingertips gets me. Not that someone made a Von-Neumann machine in Star Wars.

And the comic implied it was novel how? How would unleashing Republic Devestators DO SHIT to save Calamari? You realize that tractor beams are not a magic bypass of shielding right? That R2 probably had to deactivate the shielding in order to make them devour each other, right? Without that backdoor, you'll have to use teratons of energy to overwhelm the shields and sacrifice the planet, numbnuts.

[NecronLord]

This is a fault of DE itself how?

The fact that the writers of DE were also responsible for writing the New Republic in the same publication? It introduced another concept the New Republic was too stupid to adopt (this happens a lot in the EU) and continues the descent of the New Republic into the brainless and gormless idiots so reviled by certain members of this board.

It is yet another example of poor writers wanting to create a threat to the New Republic turning the brave New Republic into a pathetic political entity whose reaction to danger is to flap about like a fish out of water until another deus ex machina saves it.This is as much the fault of KJA and about every other EU author as it is of DE, but it's worthy of contempt no matter where it crops up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I like listening to this windbag screech from his soapbox when he hasn't even read the fucking comics.

[Stravo]

In any event, whether it is unoriginal or not (and before DE, it was not used in direct combat) it is still a militarily sound concept. And as for the terror it caused, let me ask you this: If an ISD BDZs a planet, does the fact that they did it frequently during the reign of Palpatine make it any less fearsome? The same concept applies to the devestators, if you see a world being devoured by a fleet of montrous droid ships and live to report on it, fear is going to spread. If some insane admiral or criminal got his hands on a handful of ISDs and began raining down fire indescrimately on numerous worlds, fear would spread to.

Err. The idea that every other government but the Cloned Emperor is too terminally stupid to use this blatantly obvious application of the technology at their fingertips gets me. Not that someone made a Von-Neumann machine in Star Wars.

When one looks at the greta powers involved it logically falls to Palpatine.

The Alliance wouldn't deploy such a weapon and the Palpatine controlled the CIS during the Clone Wars so they built what he allowed them to build, otherwise Coruscant would have been threatened by the Great Weapon if the Separatists had free reign to build what they designed.

The Republic had been at peace for 1,000 years so such weapons were not needed then and when the war started they were experimenting with new weapons and designs throughout the war trying to remember what it was like to fight a full scale conflict so the process of refinement of designs needed for such weapons weren't needed until Clone Palpy comes along.

[NecronLord]

And the comic implied it was novel how? How would unleashing Republic Devestators DO SHIT to save Calamari? You realize that tractor beams are not a magic bypass of shielding right? That R2 probably had to deactivate the shielding in order to make them devour each other, right? Without that backdoor, you'll have to use teratons of energy to overwhelm the shields and sacrifice the planet, numbnuts.

Ho hum. I don't like them because they're yet another nifty toy that the New Republic is too terminally stupid to use. The problem with World Devastators is that they're a blatantly mis-handled concept that is a symptom of the larger problem of New Republic stupidity that infests the EU.

[NecronLord]

I like listening to this windbag screech from his soapbox when he hasn't even read the fucking comics.

Ho hum. I have, in the past, when I still thought things like Eclipse Class 'Star Destroyers' were nifty, looked for the Dark Empire Comics, I still do from time to time. Guess what, they're not to be found in my part of England. Not to mention, am I somehow required to read the Dark Empire comics to know of the numerous faults with them? Wow. It seems you are claiming that no information about the Dark Empire comics is available outside of the comics themselves...

[Illuminatus Primus]

And the comic implied it was novel how? How would unleashing Republic Devestators DO SHIT to save Calamari? You realize that tractor beams are not a magic bypass of shielding right? That R2 probably had to deactivate the shielding in order to make them devour each other, right? Without that backdoor, you'll have to use teratons of energy to overwhelm the shields and sacrifice the planet, numbnuts.

Ho hum. I don't like them because they're yet another nifty toy that the New Republic is too terminally stupid to use. The problem with World Devastators is that they're a blatantly mis-handled concept that is a symptom of the larger problem of New Republic stupidity that infests the EU.

WHY WOULD THEY HAVE USED THEM IN THE COMIC, FUCKMOOK? THEY WERE DEFENDING CALAMARI, NOT COMPETING OVER WHOSE TECH TREE WOULD GET TO EAT IT FOR RESOURCES. WHAT THE FUCK GOOD WOULD REPUBLIC WORLD DEVESTATORS BE FOR THAT?

You are a moron. This a completely contrived dilemma which makes no sense, and I am not surprised, since I listen to you bitch and you haven't even read the source material.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ho hum. I have, in the past, when I still thought things like Eclipse Class 'Star Destroyers' were nifty, looked for the Dark Empire Comics, I still do from time to time. Guess what, they're not to be found in my part of England. Not to mention, am I somehow required to read the Dark Empire comics to know of the numerous faults with them? Wow. It seems you are claiming that no information about the Dark Empire comics is available outside of the comics themselves...

Your complaint is completely neutered by the events of the comics, which tells me all I need to know when evaluating that you are, in fact, talking through your anus.

[NecronLord]

When one looks at the greta powers involved it logically falls to Palpatine.

The Alliance wouldn't deploy such a weapon

Which is the problem. The New Republic is terminally stupid because even when faced with remorseless enemies bent on their enslavement, they will not use such a technology, not even to bulk up their numbers by eating the vast unoccupied stretches of space that exist in the galaxy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which is the problem. The New Republic is terminally stupid because even when faced with remorseless enemies bent on their enslavement, they will not use such a technology, not even to bulk up their numbers by eating the vast unoccupied stretches of space that exist in the galaxy.

Again, your anus speaks. There's no evidence against self-replication, recycling/fabrication machines...in fact they're used to rebuild the irradiated, battle-blasted, Star Destroyer-crashed-on Coruscant cityscape in EVIL KJA's lamented books.

Looks like you spoke too soon, dumbass.

[NecronLord]

Right. So, Mr Primus, I need to present a concrete reason for finding the World Devastators a rather tiresome concept (Which is reason enough for me to put them on a list of things I dislike about DE, do remember it is a list of opinions) that resulted in adding another line to the long list of things the New Republic manages not to adopt for its own use in the rest of the expansive EU that is not the DE comics. They are introduced in DE, and then promptly forgotten. This is bad form, and is, IMO, a fault that can be [EDIT: Partly] laid at the feet of the DE comics.

[NecronLord]

Again, your anus speaks. There's no evidence against self-replication, recycling/fabrication machines...in fact they're used to rebuild the irradiated, battle-blasted, Star Destroyer-crashed-on Coruscant cityscape in EVIL KJA's lamented books.

Looks like you spoke too soon, dumbass.

Oh no! But wait, such technology is never used on the same grand scale for mass production of war machines again, which is, oh, the point.

[Stravo]

When one looks at the greta powers involved it logically falls to Palpatine.

The Alliance wouldn't deploy such a weapon

Which is the problem. The New Republic is terminally stupid because even when faced with remorseless enemies bent on their enslavement, they will not use such a technology, not even to bulk up their numbers by eating the vast unoccupied stretches of space that exist in the galaxy.

Its a matter of political will, opposing philosophies and military practicality. The Republic by fielding such weapons would either have to use them on enemy held worlds and thus stoop to the Empire's level or carefully decide when and where to deploy them. Sounds like too much of a headache to worry about when you can just crank out more capital ships and win the war the old fashioned way.

Its like saying why didn't the US crank out King Tiger knockoffs instead of the same old Shermans. The Shermans worked for what they needed to do.

As stupid as it might sound it makes sense in universe that the NR is doing everything it can to distance itself from the GE and its policies.

[NecronLord]

Were they not later outnumbered/outgunned by their enemies in the NJO?

[NecronLord]

By popular demand, a revised list.

• Anakin Skywalker did not destroy the Sith. Han Solo did. By shooting the Sith Master in the back.
• Anakin Skywalker did not destroy the Sith. The Sith Lord escaped Anakin, and Anakin forgot to mention this possibility to Luke. Yeess... We're sure Palpatine kept the secrets of the Sith from falling into Lord Vader's hands.
• Anakin Skywalker did not destroy the Sith.
• Palpatine has world devastating power. No. Just no.
• Palpatine is able to yank Luke's X-Wing across the galaxy by will alone. Why he needed that affair with the Second Death Star is therefore beyond me.
• Imperial Von Neumann Machines. Aside from being a concept that other governments don't use even when they're having their capitals overrun, something that cannot, on reflection, be laid at the feet of DE, these are a rendition of a stock sci-fi concept that does not capture my interest. As with everything else your mileage may vary.
• Palpatine has a secret throne world that no one ever knew about. Crammed full of expendable Dark Side Adepts. Yes. New Republic Intelligence is that inept.
• Force mind-transferrence.
• The Eclipse Class Star Destroyer, with its inconsistant yeild of superlaser. That is somehow vastly more powerful than its turbolaser armamment.
• R2-D2 destroying such a vessel.
• R2-D2 not even being monitored by the Imperials
• Imperial Ships being hijackable by a fucking thirty plus year old pilot-assist droid.
• Endless superweapons, including the Galaxy Gun (nifty, but for god's sake, does the Emperor have such a tiny penis he needs this endless compensation.) the Eclipse Star Destroyers (naff) and the World Devestators (Yawn).
• Aforementioned Palpatine cloning crapping out on him for no discernable reason, resulting in a totally contrived plot device of an excuse to want Anakin Solo's unborn body - one would think this would rather inconvinience him. Running an empire from the crib.
• Palpatine's grand master plan of sucking out everyone's soul. Just when you think shit can't get any worse, they produce the shit sourcebook, with 5000% more shit.

[Stravo]

Were they not later outnumbered/outgunned by their enemies in the NJO?

And are not all governments that live solely by high ideals usually get curb stomped by someone else down the road? In many ways you can look at the NJO as the OR getting the ass kicking wake up call that the Jedi got.

The Jedi realized that they couldn't keep doing it the way they had been and changed (or so I hope) and the NR tried to be like the OR and got blasted for it. Now they're something different as I understand it.

[NecronLord]

And are not all governments that live solely by high ideals usually get curb stomped by someone else down the road?

The New Republic lurches from crisis to crisis. I don't know about you, but this annoys the hell out of me. It certainly creates drama, but it also destroys verisimiltude, one often finds one's self asking when the NR will finally get itself into gear. I would far preffer it if the EU were less prone to grand and epic stories, and focussed on developing scenarios that are dramatic without being a monthly threat to the stability of the entire galaxy.

[Noble Ire]

And are not all governments that live solely by high ideals usually get curb stomped by someone else down the road?

The New Republic lurches from crisis to crisis. I don't know about you, but this annoys the hell out of me. It certainly creates drama, but it also destroys verisimiltude, one often finds one's self asking when the NR will finally get itself into gear. I would far preffer it if the EU were less prone to grand and epic stories, and focussed on developing scenarios that are dramatic without being a monthly threat to the stability of the entire galaxy.

Considering how much damage Palpatine's New Order did to the galaxy, economically, politically, and socially, along with the massive amounts of military hardware they left behind, I would see an enviorment where the NR could easily survive as very unrealistic. By your reasoning, the Wiemar Government in post WW1 Germany was destined to survive and only fell by because of a fluke.

[Kartr_Kana]

I personally like a lot of the EU, but I have noticed that an increasing amount of novels (I have not read many comic books) are getting worse and worse at presenting the Star Wars universe in a manner consistant with the Movies. Authors seem to be writing "Star Wars Novels" because they want their name and their two penny ideas associated with Star Wars. The may have some useful ideas, but they fail to tie them into the continuity in a way that makes sense or appeals. The older the novel generally the better it is, with NJO being an exception at times.

Isn't the DE non-cannon because Vader/Anakin brings balance by killing the Last of the Sith and thus bringing an end to their Order? So anything that says he did not bring an end to the Sith would be contradicting the movie and therefore be non-cannon?

As for KJA (and Stackpole) my problem is that the ships are inconsistant with every other source. Victory Star Destroyers are fast and manouverable as fighters, not to mention tiny, can be destroyed in one salvo from a single upgraded Imperator SD. Stackpole contradicts the OT:ICS when he says that the Y-wings have worse sensors then X-wings and he has a few proton torpedos kill a single VSD or ISD. He must have played the game and taken the mechanics that were used to make it enjoyable and based his whole series on it.

[Noble Ire]

Isn't the DE non-cannon because Vader/Anakin brings balance by killing the Last of the Sith and thus bringing an end to their Order? So anything that says he did not bring an end to the Sith would be contradicting the movie and therefore be non-cannon?

The true nature and specifics of the prophecy has never been stated, movies or otherwise. Thus, no contradiction.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

[*]Anakin Skywalker did not destroy the Sith. The Sith Lord escaped Anakin, and Anakin forgot to mention this possibility to Luke. Yeess... We're sure Palpatine kept the secrets of the Sith from falling into Lord Vader's hands.

Apparently, Palpy isn't interested to transfer this little tidbit.

[*]Palpatine has world devastating power. No. Just no.

I agree. This Jedi-wank stuff is a pain, but it is not only in DE. As a whole Jedi powers became much more powerful once you left the movies. One can rationalize this, but this is the plain truth.

rendition of a stock sci-fi concept that does not capture my interest. As with everything else your mileage may vary.

You might as well say Star Destroyers don't capture your interest, for they are pretty stock - superluminal travel, beam weapons, tractor beams...

[*]Palpatine has a secret throne world that no one ever knew about. Crammed full of expendable Dark Side Adepts. Yes. New Republic Intelligence is that inept.

Why not? The galaxy is so big.

[*]Force mind-transferrence.

Been there since ANH. Can't blame DE.

[*]The Eclipse Class Star Destroyer, with its inconsistant yeild of superlaser. That is somehow vastly more powerful than its turbolaser armamment.

The Death Star's superlaser is also "vastly more powerful" than its turbolaser armament. And I thought the inconsistancy was caused by WEG's Sourcebook.

[*]Endless superweapons, including the Galaxy Gun (nifty, but for god's sake, does the Emperor have such a tiny penis he needs this endless compensation.)

You agree it is nifty, so what's the problem?

the Eclipse Star Destroyers (naff)

They are a useful weapon that got into bad luck.

and the World Devestators (Yawn).

They may not be innovative, but they are practical. There is no need to yawn.

[*]Palpatine's grand master plan of sucking out everyone's soul. Just when you think shit can't get any worse, they produce the shit sourcebook, with 5000% more shit.

The fundamental nature of Force-usage is that you are sucking the life-energy of everything around you to power your magic. What Palpy does is merely an "optimized draw", which can increase his Force powers beyond what is normally possible for his inductor configuration. I don't see how this is so offensive.