The Jedi, Jesus and the UN

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:
Lusankya wrote: Not that I can read.
Actually I meant our world now, today as in right now. So yeah Lucas would really be someone that Yoda and Obi Wan would really like to talk to and the Jedi get instant credibility in that respect.
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Post by Crown »

Well, I think I'd have to re-consider my stance on athieism ... I mean whether you consider the Force to be a religion (or diety) and what not ...
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Post by SyntaxVorlon »

The entirety of Buddhist and Taoist believers flock, and offer Yoda a teaching position.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Crown wrote:Well, I think I'd have to re-consider my stance on athieism ... I mean whether you consider the Force to be a religion (or diety) and what not ...
The Force isn't a deity, so you can be an atheist and still believe in it. :P
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Crown wrote:Well, I think I'd have to re-consider my stance on athieism ... I mean whether you consider the Force to be a religion (or diety) and what not ...
Well life created the force, not the force created life so the force probably wouldn’t be considered a deity just more of ultimate proof in Taoism.
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Post by Crown »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Crown wrote:Well, I think I'd have to re-consider my stance on athieism ... I mean whether you consider the Force to be a religion (or diety) and what not ...
The Force isn't a deity, so you can be an atheist and still believe in it. :P
And;
Drunk Monkey wrote:Well life created the force, not the force created life so the force probably wouldn’t be considered a deity just more of ultimate proof in Taoism.
Maybe but probably not.

Apparently the Force has enough conscience in it to choose to produce it's Avatar (in the form of Anakin Skywalker) at an appropriate moment to correct a (precieved) inbalance.

And the 'life creates it' line might be true, might be hyperbole - either way it is self aware in some form or another, and that to me denotes some kind of abstract intelligence. :P
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Post by Stravo »

How does one deal with the Will of the Force if you're an athiest? Yoda implies that the Force would let them know when it was time to take back what was theirs as well as implied throughout the series that the Will of the Force was guiding everyone including Anakin and Palpatine. Hardly a simple energy field when one looks at it that way.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Crown wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Crown wrote:Well, I think I'd have to re-consider my stance on athieism ... I mean whether you consider the Force to be a religion (or diety) and what not ...
The Force isn't a deity, so you can be an atheist and still believe in it. :P
And;
Drunk Monkey wrote:Well life created the force, not the force created life so the force probably wouldn’t be considered a deity just more of ultimate proof in Taoism.
Maybe but probably not.

Apparently the Force has enough conscience in it to choose to produce it's Avatar (in the form of Anakin Skywalker) at an appropriate moment to correct a (precieved) inbalance.

And the 'life creates it' line might be true, might be hyperbole - either way it is self aware in some form or another, and that to me denotes some kind of abstract intelligence. :P
But we don’t really know what happened with Anikin it could be the force or it could have been Plagusis trying to destroy the Jedi.
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Post by Crown »

Drunk Monkey wrote:But we don’t really know what happened with Anikin it could be the force or it could have been Plagusis trying to destroy the Jedi.
We know this much; there was no father, Qui-Gon described Anakin as a vergence in the Force (something the Council didn't object to), he theorised as to the Force creating Anakin - the Chosen One, something the rest of the Jedi came to believe at one point or another, a Sith Lord lied through his teeth to try and turn Anakin.

Gee, wonder who I would believe. 8)
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Crown wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:But we don’t really know what happened with Anikin it could be the force or it could have been Plagusis trying to destroy the Jedi.
We know this much; there was no father, Qui-Gon described Anakin as a vergence in the Force (something the Council didn't object to), he theorised as to the Force creating Anakin - the Chosen One, something the rest of the Jedi came to believe at one point or another, a Sith Lord lied through his teeth to try and turn Anakin.

Gee, wonder who I would believe. 8)
Yes Palpitine is a pathological liar and an asshole, but Qui-gon had no idea about Plagusis or his improbable abilities, I think it was more likely qui-gon was using the theory that best fit at the time. We have no evidence Plagusis wasent able to do what Palpy said just his word witch is unreliable but all we have to go on.
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Post by Crown »

Drunk Monkey wrote:
Crown wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:But we don’t really know what happened with Anikin it could be the force or it could have been Plagusis trying to destroy the Jedi.
We know this much; there was no father, Qui-Gon described Anakin as a vergence in the Force (something the Council didn't object to), he theorised as to the Force creating Anakin - the Chosen One, something the rest of the Jedi came to believe at one point or another, a Sith Lord lied through his teeth to try and turn Anakin.

Gee, wonder who I would believe. 8)
Yes Palpitine is a pathological liar and an asshole, but Qui-gon had no idea about Plagusis or his improbable abilities, I think it was more likely qui-gon was using the theory that best fit at the time. We have no evidence Plagusis wasent able to do what Palpy said just his word witch is unreliable but all we have to go on.
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Palps (later); Even though I told you that my Master taught me everything - he actually didn't, but I'm sure that together we can discover the secrets.

By RotJ; these secrets were never discovered.

Again, all we have is hyperbole from Sidious when he is trying to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. I'm not saying that it's not probable, I'm saying that the evidence is stacked in the 'no' column - which is enough.
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Post by Dooey Jo »

Heh. This would be a cold slap to the groin for those people who say that it's stupid to believe in the Jedi religion because it's based on Lucas' thought, who we know is not divine, but at the same time say it's not stupid to believe in the Bible because we do not know it's not written by a god (not that I believe in that kind of Jedi religion. But I've seen this kind of people saying this crap).

And how would the CIA and the likes go about getting their Jedi spies and assassins? It's not like they could train their own. And bribing Padawans wouldn't work as they're trained from early age to not be attached to anything. Kidnapping maybe, but how would you hold a Jedi captive?

But, yeah, I'd see it as a welcome change, having the UN getting advice from their own Jedi Council of sorts. Surely that would make people trust them more. Though certain people would no doubt claim the UN has become a theocracy ruled by the Satanic Jedi-dogs and maybe start a crusade against them. It would just be a matter of time before www.godhatesjedi.com would be up, quoting famous Bible verses such as "the witchy heathens shalt burneth in the firey pits of Hell! Amen!" (Bull 25:17).

But I wonder if we'll get a new type of non-Force-sensitive Jedi-wannabe fundies? They'd be like über-fanboys, only ten times as bad! Or would the regular fundies just throw out more crap like this? Or both?

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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Stravo wrote:How does one deal with the Will of the Force if you're an athiest? Yoda implies that the Force would let them know when it was time to take back what was theirs as well as implied throughout the series that the Will of the Force was guiding everyone including Anakin and Palpatine. Hardly a simple energy field when one looks at it that way.
"Always in motion, the future is". The Force might have influence, but one is not "destined", persay. Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy plenty of ways- it was certainly vague enough.

One could very well argue that the Force has always been present here, that it's those strange overwhelming desires we feel or actions we sometimes do without knowing why.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Stravo wrote:How does one deal with the Will of the Force if you're an athiest? Yoda implies that the Force would let them know when it was time to take back what was theirs as well as implied throughout the series that the Will of the Force was guiding everyone including Anakin and Palpatine. Hardly a simple energy field when one looks at it that way.
"Always in motion, the future is". The Force might have influence, but one is not "destined", persay. Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy plenty of ways- it was certainly vague enough.

One could very well argue that the Force has always been present here, that it's those strange overwhelming desires we feel or actions we sometimes do without knowing why.
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Post by LaserRifleofDoom »

Lusankya wrote:
Will Obi Wan be a sex symbol?
What kind of silly question is this? Of course he will be! He looks like freakin' Ewan McGregor for crying out loud! :P Plus we know he's going to age like Alec Guinness, rather than, say, Mel Gibson, and we know he's a good guy, so all the girls will take one look at him and think "this guy's a keeper."
At least you mentioned Sir Alec Guinness. I'd practically expect him to be the one who arrived on Earth, he's so much more respectable.
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Post by Lusankya »

LaserRifleofDoom wrote:
Lusankya wrote:
Will Obi Wan be a sex symbol?
What kind of silly question is this? Of course he will be! He looks like freakin' Ewan McGregor for crying out loud! :P Plus we know he's going to age like Alec Guinness, rather than, say, Mel Gibson, and we know he's a good guy, so all the girls will take one look at him and think "this guy's a keeper."
At least you mentioned Sir Alec Guinness. I'd practically expect him to be the one who arrived on Earth, he's so much more respectable.
Well, the OP stated that they arrived with baby princess Luke and Leia, so I assumed that it would be Ewan McGregor-looking Obi-Wan, rather than Alec Guinness-looking Obi-Wan.
How does one deal with the Will of the Force if you're an athiest? Yoda implies that the Force would let them know when it was time to take back what was theirs as well as implied throughout the series that the Will of the Force was guiding everyone including Anakin and Palpatine. Hardly a simple energy field when one looks at it that way.
A natural phoenomenon has the ability to "tell" us stuff. The position of the sun in the sky "tells" us that it's reaching midwinter, the colour of the clouds "tells" us that it's going to rain, increased seismic activity in the vicinity of a dormant volcano "tells" us that maybe it's going to become active soon.

It doesn't mean that any of these things are conscious, it merely means that we can pick up on the signals that they're emiting.
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Drunk Monkey wrote:Yes Palpitine is a pathological liar and an asshole, but Qui-gon had no idea about Plagusis or his improbable abilities, I think it was more likely qui-gon was using the theory that best fit at the time. We have no evidence Plagusis wasent able to do what Palpy said just his word witch is unreliable but all we have to go on.
Are we violating logic again? Tsk, tsk, tsk. I thought we went over this a dozen times in elementary school.
Stravo wrote:How does one deal with the Will of the Force if you're an athiest? Yoda implies that the Force would let them know when it was time to take back what was theirs as well as implied throughout the series that the Will of the Force was guiding everyone including Anakin and Palpatine. Hardly a simple energy field when one looks at it that way.
I would think the Force would be physically unapproachable, in terms of mechanical descriptions, and instead, the only way to approach it is through interpretations. One person interprets it as a 'living will', in order to better understand it for him, when in fact no one can tell if the Force is alive persay. Others may see it rather as an energy field, not conscious, but still in motion.

Either way, it leads to the desired results, so anyone's interpretation could be correct. I think that's how Qui-Gonn can invoke a "living Force", while Obi-Wan, 20 years later, can say "energy field" with a straight face: it gets the job done, so everybody's okay with everybody else's interpretation.
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Post by NecronLord »

Yoda: Resolve this Iraq Situation, we will, out, you will get, Mr Bush.

Oh yes. I'm sure that the world's leaders will relish a group of loons with lightsabers telling them what to do under the auspices of the UN. Order 66 Mk 2 is about a week around the corner.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And since there is no Dark Side Shroud, Yoda and Obi would know of the plot beforehand.

Other things that will happen: Ewan McGregor will be seriously weirded out. And quite apart from the Islamic fundies, the Christian fundies will start to rave about Yoda being some sort of demon and the Jedi agents of Satan's will, Rapture, Armageddon prophecy yadda yadda yadda.
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Post by Xon »

NecronLord wrote:Oh yes. I'm sure that the world's leaders will relish a group of loons with lightsabers telling them what to do under the auspices of the UN. Order 66 Mk 2 is about a week around the corner.
Being on the UN security council just became a position with some real power.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

2000AD wrote:Also, would Obi and Yoda be able to deal with the tech gap and the culture clash?

They're used to a civilisation that can cross a galaxy in a day, we have trouble getting to our moon. Even in their self imposed exiles they probably had technology that made it easier.

Living with us must be like going to live in an Omish society, probably worse.
I think they would cope. Tatooine was not exactly dissimilar to poorer countries. The scenes in TPM where Jar Jar meets Sebulba, for example, the street stall holders and the general street scenes reminded me of my couple of weeks in Vanuatu.
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Post by NecronLord »

HemlockGrey wrote:And since there is no Dark Side Shroud, Yoda and Obi would know of the plot beforehand.
Difficult to see, the future always was. They weren't invincible before the Shroud either after all.
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Post by Stravo »

NecronLord wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:And since there is no Dark Side Shroud, Yoda and Obi would know of the plot beforehand.
Difficult to see, the future always was. They weren't invincible before the Shroud either after all.
Even with the dark side shroud Mace Windu detected a plot to destroy the Jedi before it sprung. Granted it didn't work out for him too well but there you have it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

NecronLord wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:And since there is no Dark Side Shroud, Yoda and Obi would know of the plot beforehand.
Difficult to see, the future always was. They weren't invincible before the Shroud either after all.
Did we ever see what Jedi were like before the Shroud of the Dark Side clouded their vision? In AOTC they were quite aware of how it was limiting them, but even in TPM it must surely have been affecting them since Palpatine was in their midst without their knowledge.
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