Jesus vs. Horus

[wolveraptor]

But wait: Weren't the Jews around long before the founding of the Persian empire? Semetic peoples were one of the first civilizations on the fucking planet. The first emperor in the world was a Semite. Sargon I of the Akkadians. Of course, they were a different Semetic tribe, but wasn't there a kingdom of Israel before a Persian empire? Wouldn't that mean that the Judean faith was already well established by that time?

[tharkûn]

There's good reason to believe that the mythical figure of Jesus was borrowed heavily from Mithra (the Persian/Roman deity, and as this thread indicates, Horus (the Egyptian deity.) This ignores that a number of other Greco-Roman deities died and were resurrected, and the concept of virgin birth was one the Greeks knew very well, as some of their prominent mythical heroes were born of trysts between virgin mothers and the gods.

Possibly, however the Mithric, Egyptian, etc. pantheon were not static and it is entirely possible that the surviving texts, images, and tales borrowed from Christian tradition. Remember the old pantheons were quite fluid and if someone else had a cool idea it often was co-opted. Virtually all the primary material I've read about dates well after the life of Jesus; exchange going the other way is a distinct possibility. Hell a good number of primary sources were Christian writers who had a bad habit of retelling everything in Christian context (Buddha was accidently made a saint at one point).

So the myth of Jesus already borrowed heavily from the religious beliefs of the peoples with the most cultural, spiritual, and secular influence. (There is no objective evidence that Jesus himself ever actually lived, or had even the fraction of the influence attributed to him. Especially as all the writings about the man are second or third-hand accounts that didn't even turn up until the better part of a century after his death. Not to mention that the behavior of some of the actors in the myth are inconsistent with what they would've actually done. For example, Pontius Pilate was described as reluctant to kill Jesus, when it was the man's job to execute criminals, and what records exist of Pilate indicate he would've probably had an obvious rabble-rouser like Jesus killed without a second thought.)

There is no objective evidence for MOST of the ancients and virtually all histories from that period were written second or third hand, for instance the majority of Thucydides is second hand accounts and he is an impeccable historian compared to most of the ancients.

I would not read all that much into Pontius Pilate, while Jesus may have been a rabble rouser he certainly had a significant following and Pilate may well have been weighing the damage down by pissing off fanatical followers of Jesus vs the damage done by pissing off fanatical Jews. While Roman governors enjoyed broad powers, provoking massive civil unrest was never endearing to those higher up the food chain.

We also have to remember that the Pauline tradition of Christianity was propagated by a Greek (Saul of Tarsis aka Saint Paul) and spread into Rome, due (likely in no small part) to its remarkable similarity to Mithraism being practiced in the Empire. Had that not happened, it is very likely that the fundies SD.net denizens would be arguing against today would be Mithraic, instead of Christian.

Doubtful. Mithracism lacked the appeal to the slaves and women that Christianity held, cults being excusively male and educated. Further Christianity has a strong conversion mission, Mithracism was perfectly content to have fraternities and did little if any active conversion work. Lastly Christianity is taught mother to child, Mithracism was instructed at a later age via secret initiation; it is far more effectively to spread your religion in the formative years than to do so later in life.

Christianity's big draw was that it was open to anyone - women, slaves, the poor, soldiers, etc. and it was far easier to be initiated into Christianity than into any of the major cults.

More than likely whatever Islam becomes without Paul is what would end up dominating the populace.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

But wait: Weren't the Jews around long before the founding of the Persian empire? Semetic peoples were one of the first civilizations on the fucking planet. The first emperor in the world was a Semite. Sargon I of the Akkadians. Of course, they were a different Semetic tribe, but wasn't there a kingdom of Israel before a Persian empire? Wouldn't that mean that the Judean faith was already well established by that time?

Follow the following logical relationships. != stands for "not equivalent to."

Early Israelite Yahweh worship != Babylonian-occupation era early Judaism.
Babylonian-occupation era Judaism != Roman-occupation era Judaism.
Judaism != Christianity.

Most of what we see in the Old Testament wasn't actually written down and collected until the time the Israelites fell under Babylonian/Persian occupation. The Israelites didn't have this good versus evil theme that Christianity carries, as Yahweh was perfectly capable of being evil and displaying considerable avarice and cruelty on his own. The Israelites also didn't have a strong concept of an afterlife. Once you died, you stayed dead, and that was it.

Once the Jews fell under repeated occupation by big, influential powers, they borrowed the more appealing themes of the religions around them. This was the environment into which Christianity was born. And Christianity borrowed further from the Greco-Roman ideals and the Zoroastrian principles from earlier, as well as the ideas taken from the Egyptians. (The Christians took the Hebrew tester, Satan, and transformed him into God's nemesis. They also changed the character of God to be a good, loving God, and projected the evil qualities on Satan. They also shoved in the concept of an afterlife, which wasn't there before.)

[mr friendly guy]

Horus is similar to Jesus. Ok my knowledge of Egyptian myths isn't that great, but isn't Osiris (Horus's father) the one who died and came back alive.

[wolveraptor]

Osiris was killed by his brother anteater-face, who then took his body apart and floated it down Denial. Then the other good guys (his wife/sister, some other dudes) put him back together, only they couldn't find his dick, so they used a wooden phallus (I kid you not). I forget what they did with anteater-face.

Anyways, if the Bible was written down only in later times, then I can understand the influence thing. Hell, most every race had a flood story. The Sumerians had one, the Greeks had one, the Jews had one: of course, your average YEC will take this as proof that it happened.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Anyways, if the Bible was written down only in later times, then I can understand the influence thing. Hell, most every race had a flood story. The Sumerians had one, the Greeks had one, the Jews had one: of course, your average YEC will take this as proof that it happened.

Well, when one lives in an area where river floods of high intensity occur every so often, then it will be that one will eventually develop a flood myth of some sort. Since most early civilizations lived in river floodplains (due to the fertile soil and easy access to drinking and irrigation water), this comes as something of a no-brainer.

[Avalon616]

Osiris was killed by his brother anteater-face, who then took his body apart and floated it down Denial. Then the other good guys (his wife/sister, some other dudes) put him back together, only they couldn't find his dick, so they used a wooden phallus (I kid you not). I forget what they did with anteater-face.

Anyways, if the Bible was written down only in later times, then I can understand the influence thing. Hell, most every race had a flood story. The Sumerians had one, the Greeks had one, the Jews had one: of course, your average YEC will take this as proof that it happened.

Osiris was killed by Set(h), if I remember correctly (and yes, the Bible's Seth is borrowed from this character). His body was scattered into <Insert number depending on version of myth> pieces, and then Isis, his wife, and major Goddess changed into a bird, and flew over the land of egypt and searched for his body. She found all except his penis, so fashion a phallus of gold, and resurrected him. She then got pregnant, and Osiris died again, and Horus took his place with the "living". Oriris then presided over the underworld.

Horus was technically an immaculate conception, seeing as his father was a dead god with no penis, and yet Isis was still knocked up. Isis was a crafty goddess though, and for those who think she was only a minor Goddess, research a bit harder. She had a HUGE following, and as more time goes on, the more research points to her being the main Goddess (although a pantheon did exist, obviously.)

Where most of the similarities between Horus and Jesus lie are the stories of Jesus's birth and early years. The gospels written about his early life were written so much later, and by people who were born after Jesus allegedly died (I think the main gospel concerning the early life of Jesus was in Mark). The stories are ripped right from tons of other pagan symbolic stories, including Horus, the aforemention Mithra, and many other legends. They're the common Horned God and Goddess parables, with the child savior. It's a common thread in mythology.

As for the flood, I'll have to talk to one of my professors and get where some exact sources are, but it seems some historians, mythologists(is that a word?), and geologists/scientists were postualating that at some point maybe 20,000 years ago, we had an era of immense tsunami and flooding activity. And since the people couldn't explain why that was happening... ta-dah! Flood myths! So more than just the "fertile crescent", since flood creation myths predate fertile crescent mythology- we gotta go back to Africa!

(If you couldn't tell, I love mythology.)

[wautd]

Am I the only one who pictured the Messiah going toe-to-toe with the Imperium's very first Chaos Space Marine?

yeah, and my knowledge about 40K is basic at best

[The Grim Squeaker]

first Chaos primarch, and yeah same here.
Sanguinius would make Jesus eat his halo.

[Rye]

As for the flood, I'll have to talk to one of my professors and get where some exact sources are, but it seems some historians, mythologists(is that a word?), and geologists/scientists were postualating that at some point maybe 20,000 years ago, we had an era of immense tsunami and flooding activity. And since the people couldn't explain why that was happening... ta-dah! Flood myths! So more than just the "fertile crescent", since flood creation myths predate fertile crescent mythology- we gotta go back to Africa!

20000 years? I don't think that would survive in oral history for so long. IIRC there was a more recent flood in the Sumer area (black sea? I forget) that we know about that had some rich guy with a few goats on a boat survive. A few other survivors saw him and it got turned into lore over the years and generations. When the jews were in captivity in babylon, they saw the power of the utnapishtim fable and pretty much just copied it.

Personally, I don't think it matters where a lot of the Jesus story themes came from, and lots of people seem to have some sort of agenda to imply Christianity is not just a form of first century judaism, which it is.

[Avalon616]

Personally, I don't think it matters where a lot of the Jesus story themes came from, and lots of people seem to have some sort of agenda to imply Christianity is not just a form of first century judaism, which it is.

Well, yes, the original Christianity was nominally beliefs of the Essene and Nazorean sects of Judaism, but it's folly to ignore the pagan influences on it. The original Christianity of the first century is much more like Gnostic Christianity, which still relies heavily on the Egyptian and Zorastric influences on Judaism. But the more modern Pauline Christianity is heavily influenced by Mithraism and other Zorastric religions, and also a plethora of other pagan religions. When Christianity started, yes it was a form of first century Judaism, but it is not that now. I don't see how you can say people have an agenda, when basic preliminary research on other religions in times similar and predating Judaism and Christianity have the same metaphoric mythologies.

Most known mythology dates back about 50,000 years, and human beings 4.3 million (though I've read 6 mil as a more current figure). From what I know, every people has had a story of a great flood, even civilizations that pre-date the Sumerian occupancy- most African tribes have a Flood story. I will go back and double check my years on hypothesis on when the global catastrophe/time of floods is theorized to be, but I did think it was that long ago. I would like to point out that I'm no expert, just a student, and might have my facts mixed up.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Most known mythology dates back about 50,000 years, and human beings 4.3 million (though I've read 6 mil as a more current figure). From what I know, every people has had a story of a great flood, even civilizations that pre-date the Sumerian occupancy- most African tribes have a Flood story. I will go back and double check my years on hypothesis on when the global catastrophe/time of floods is theorized to be, but I did think it was that long ago. I would like to point out that I'm no expert, just a student, and might have my facts mixed up.

Human beings don't date back 4.3 million years. We don't even date back one million years. We date back to less than 200,000 years, and we were technologically and culturally indistinguishable from Neanderthals and Homo Erectus until about 70,000 years ago.

And, again, you don't need some sort of global catastrophe, or even a higher-than-normal incidence of flooding to explain the prevalence of flood myths. Primitive people hung out where the water was, since . . . well, that's where the water was, and that's where most of the food was. And, in more than a few cases, where the water was happened to be along rivers. And rivers flood. Sometimes, they flood in a spectacular fashion. Get one of those to wipe out a tribe of primitive paleolithic men, and the survivors will be thanking their gods they got out alive. Add on the embellishment from a purely oral retelling of the tale, and before you know it, the flood covered the entire planet and wiped out everybody but the Chosen Ones.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Am I the only one who pictured the Messiah going toe-to-toe with the Imperium's very first Chaos Space Marine?

no actually I pictured Jesus, a choas marine, and a goa'uld duking it out.

[Rye]

Well, yes, the original Christianity was nominally beliefs of the Essene and Nazorean sects of Judaism, but it's folly to ignore the pagan influences on it. The original Christianity of the first century is much more like Gnostic Christianity, which still relies heavily on the Egyptian and Zorastric influences on Judaism. But the more modern Pauline Christianity is heavily influenced by Mithraism and other Zorastric religions, and also a plethora of other pagan religions. When Christianity started, yes it was a form of first century Judaism, but it is not that now.

That much is obvious. Neither is judaism. And the gnostics were contemperous to Paul, they didn't predate him. The Epistles are among the first christian writings and mention the heretical christians, the hypothetical document Q was supposed to have been written 10 or so years after Jesus died, and was unavailable to "mark," and "john," but available to "matthew" and "luke" and "thomas". Mark, and subsequently those that copied from him, matthew and luke, are not very mithraic at all. They are not based around an educated few clique religion, it was designed to appeal to the uneducated, unwashed masses, slaves and free men.

I'm not saying that subsequent to that, pagan customs and themes didn't get crossed over, of course not. But it's hardly one way, pagans likewise borrowed christian ideas, not just vice versa.

I don't see how you can say people have an agenda, when basic preliminary research on other religions in times similar and predating Judaism and Christianity have the same metaphoric mythologies.

People often spout shit like "the virgin birth is pagan" though all the supposedly pagan themes in it exist in contemperous or predating jewish mythology, like the [jewish] book of Enoch. Or "Christianity is pagan to the core [as distinct to judaism]," I've heard it lots of times, from jews and atheists, mainly.

Most known mythology dates back about 50,000 years, and human beings 4.3 million (though I've read 6 mil as a more current figure).

H sapiens sapiens are about 180000 years old, i believe.

From what I know, every people has had a story of a great flood, even civilizations that pre-date the Sumerian occupancy- most African tribes have a Flood story.

Correlation does not equate to causation. Human civilisation grew up on floodplains, the waters give transport, hygeine, food, water, and farmland. Floodplains earn their names, so lots of people get killed by floods. So flood myths crop up. Since floods are common around rivers, you don't need a grand oral tradition going back millions of years to explain the prevalence of them when there's nothing else to support it. The jewish one, however, is definately thought to be stolen from the Sumerian.

[wolveraptor]

The jewish one, however, is definately thought to be stolen from the Sumerian.

It has to be. Both Noah, and the other Sumerian guy were warned of it before-hand by a god/God, both build a boat to survive it, both save tons of plants and animals, but the Sumerian one is a better story, because the writing is just better.

[Mange]

There is a site that compares Jesus to other religious figures (it's an atheist site):

http://www.bandoli.no/nooriginaljesus.htm (the main page can be found at http://www.bandoli.no/index.htm ).

The similarities are striking in many cases.