saber slingers- fancy or mule moves?

[The Jazz Intern]

Everyone has seen a fan movie or at least seen a starwars movie with awsome, fast, and martial artsish moves which are a visual feast. Then we've seen mule fighting,(Obi wan and vader) Where theres noth'n fancy, but it gets the job done.Which is more effective?
Lets look at the upsides and down sides. First off, Mule moves. Mule moves don't require the same amount of brain capacity to work, and allow more focus on the force because more of the mind should be open. It also can be the kiss of death to saber whirling menace to just do a quick stab or slash. (why didn't Obi wan Just stab General Greivous duing ROTS?) The down sides are: 1, While it maybe alot less complicated, if you don't put some of your mind into the fighting, You'll get cut in half fast. 2, Mule moves won't impress that padawan.
Fancy moves have many upsides and down sides as well. While these moves are flashy, they get to places mule moves can't, like standing over your opponent's "Pieces." Also, fancy moves are often fast enough your opponent can't thonk fast enough to parry and/or counter attack. (yoda versus Count dooku in AOTC) However, while they may be fast, they often tire you out quickly, and have many useless moves. (My fencing instructor always says "THATS UNESSESARY MOVEMENT! DON'T DO IT AGAIN!") also, such moves tend to reveal weak areas like the back or legs.
So which wins? If you have personal expeirences, don't be afraid- I'm a nerd too!

[weemadando]

Keep it simple. Don't give away your knowledge too early. If Jedi A, knows Jedi B's style right off the bat because they are doing a certain kata, then A naturally has the advantage.

[gizmojumpjet]

There's an interesting article on this over on theforce.net under (I believe) the fanfilm production session written by one of the guys over at the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts. I'm sorry I can't provide a direct link but if you dig around over there (TF.N) I believe you'll find it.

As I recall, his thesis is that the prequel trilogy 'understandably' went for a more chinese-cinema style of saber fighting (the market loves the look), but that if there really was such a thing as a light saber, the best technique would be to thrust, thrust, thrust. I seem to recall someone observing that the Sith seem to do a lot of thrusting as opposed to cutting.

Edit: The referenced essay is here.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I avoid fan films on general principle.

[gizmojumpjet]

@Spanky:

You think? How about fanfics? Are those avoided as well? I have up until this point because most of what I've read is pretty awful, but I tend to keep an open mind.

I think it's a testament to the greatness of SW that people make SW fanfilms, and I think it's wonderful that the technology to produce impressive special effects now fits on the desktop and is relatively affordable. I see this as encouraging to those that are interested in the future of film; your mileage may vary.

The folks that are going to grow up to be film makers now have the opportunity to begin honing their skills when they're twelve. Sure, that's always sort of been the case, but the footprint is getting bigger. Sure, some fanfilms suck donkey balls like there's no tomorrow, but doesn't a lot of the crap they broadcast on TV? "Troops" was frikkin' funny.

The weakness I see in fanfilms and fanfics in general is the whole derivativeness of it. Eventually, you're just running on retreads. I'd like to see more SF 'fanfics' based on original material. 'Fics.' The more the entire fanfilm (and fanfic, for that matter) movement grows, the more likely this is to happen. Maybe it already has; I've missed out on a number of interesting trends, so maybe I'm behind the curve on this.

I think it's an exciting time for the SF fan. Anyone can pick up the camera now and show the world their dream, and then sign with a big studio to produce the thousand million dollar summer blockbuster version all the geeks groused about since day one.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No, I generally don't read fan fiction at all, either. Not because I think it's all crap, but because I just have no interest in reading it (I mostly got my fill of fanfics when I used to read Tenchi Muyo fics in high school).

[Eleas]

Everyone has seen a fan movie or at least seen a starwars movie with awsome, fast, and martial artsish moves which are a visual feast. Then we've seen mule fighting,(Obi wan and vader) Where theres noth'n fancy, but it gets the job done.Which is more effective?

For pure effect, nothing beats the traditional minimalism, at least in one-on-one duels on reasonably flat terrain. You need to get creative only if you're being attacked from both sides.

Oh, and shut the fuck up, Spanky.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Hey, it's not like I said that they all suck. It's just that I think they all suck.

Seriously, though, I just can't stand them for whatever reasons (mostly because I think it would be better if such efforts were invested in something original--then it really wouldn't seem so ridiculously amateurish at times--although I'm much more leniant on fanfiction than fan films in such regards: with those it's just mostly a lack of interest).

But fine, I'll shut up. I just don't want another motherfucking gangpile on.

[Eleas]

Hey, it's not like I said that they all suck. It's just that I think they all suck.

Seriously, though, I just can't stand them for whatever reason.

And that's what's fucking irrelevant in this thread, which

A) Isn't about fanfilms,
B) Isn't about fanfic, and
C) Isn't about you.

If you had contributed one byte of knowledge or even been pointless yet on topic, I wouldn't have had to bang my head against the wall in the face of utter stupidity. But, predictably, you didn't.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Hey now, pretty much most of what I was saying was in responce to gizmojumpjet. He's the one who brought up fanfics and was asking me about my opinion about them in comparison to fan films and I was responding to him.

I admit that my first post was rather stupid, but don't jump up my ass for responding to someone talking to me and asking me stuff.

[Darth Yoshi]

Mule moves are more effective, I think. With flashy moves, you run the risk of over-reaching if your opponent dodges out of the way. But since mule moves are more controlled, it's easier to pull back and shift to the defensive.

[Eleas]

Hey now, pretty much most of what I was saying was in responce to gizmojumpjet. He's the one who brought up fanfics and was asking me about my opinion about them in comparison to fan films and I was responding to him.

The article had little to do with the specifics of fanfilm - it dealt with making sword-fighting work. And it had absolutely zero to do with the merits of fanfilms in general.

I admit that my first post was rather stupid, but don't jump up my ass for responding to someone talking to me and asking me stuff.

I didn't. I didn't need to. All I opposed was your knee-jerk pavlovian reaction upon spying the word "fanfilm".

[The Jazz Intern]

When I say flashy moves, I also mean fast moves. so either way, it boils down to other things, like terrain, or weapon choice. With a single saber, mule moves, because you can't overwhelm your opponent like with a saber staff or dual sabers. However, a truly skilled opponent, (who would unlike obi wan just stab Greivous) will see through such illusions.

[Stark]

Economy of motion is the goal. Sometimes you need 'martial arts'ish moves to succeed, and then it's good. Fast, flashing nonsense all the time just tires you, leaves more scope for mistakes and openings, etc. I actually liked the ANH duel, as it was two powerful duelists jockeying for position. It's far more realistic - in that once one of them had an advantage it would be over in moments - than the (in my mind) ridiculous sword-swinging 15 minute snorefests from ROTS.

It's like how in REAL fights, its over in seconds, it's not some retarded 'Jet Li blocks for five minutes' thing. Block, twist, crack, done. Trip, twist, crunch. Shove, roll, snap. Long hand to hand fights are only possible between fighters of almost exactly matched skill and speed, in my experience. Even a 2nd Dan gets pwnzored by a 70yo master in seconds. It happened to my sensei, it can happen to yours too!

[Eleas]

When I say flashy moves, I also mean fast moves. so either way, it boils down to other things, like terrain, or weapon choice. With a single saber, mule moves, because you can't overwhelm your opponent like with a saber staff or dual sabers. However, a truly skilled opponent, (who would unlike obi wan just stab Greivous) will see through such illusions.

I'm not sure if Grievous would actually be that vulnerable to stabs. He's armored, and seems fairly durable. He actually strikes me as one of the few who would be easier to put away with a cut than a stab.

[weemadando]

When I say flashy moves, I also mean fast moves. so either way, it boils down to other things, like terrain, or weapon choice. With a single saber, mule moves, because you can't overwhelm your opponent like with a saber staff or dual sabers. However, a truly skilled opponent, (who would unlike obi wan just stab Greivous) will see through such illusions.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Slow, steady and precise fighting is JUST AS GOOD as staff/dual saber techniques, because YOU HAVE THE SAME REACH. Thats the key in any duel, reach, followed by skill and with terrain somewhere in between. I dickhead with a spear will be at a huge advantage over a trained swordsman simply due to reach.

How about this for an example - Kendo/kenjutsu. The fighting style revolves around making a single killing blow. And it sure as shit isn't slow, though it might look it. Compare that to someone using a Thai/Phillipino dual machete technique (similar to many of the 2 sword styles in hollywood), very fast, very flashy and if your opponent isn't ready or is crap, very effective as you can land a heap of blows in no time flat.

But, I'll give the match to the kenjutsu user - he can put more strength into each hit (nearly all two-handed techniques a la Obi Wan in ANH) and is more capable of quickly responding to a change in circumstance (due to the fact that the saber is stable, held in two hands and they are not moving constantly).

Why noone has a lightsaber polearm is beyond me - we know there are lightsaber resistant materials around to make up the shaft... It just makes so much sense to me to have one.

[Enforcer Talen]

Economy of motion is the goal. Sometimes you need 'martial arts'ish moves to succeed, and then it's good. Fast, flashing nonsense all the time just tires you, leaves more scope for mistakes and openings, etc. I actually liked the ANH duel, as it was two powerful duelists jockeying for position. It's far more realistic - in that once one of them had an advantage it would be over in moments - than the (in my mind) ridiculous sword-swinging 15 minute snorefests from ROTS.

It's like how in REAL fights, its over in seconds, it's not some retarded 'Jet Li blocks for five minutes' thing. Block, twist, crack, done. Trip, twist, crunch. Shove, roll, snap. Long hand to hand fights are only possible between fighters of almost exactly matched skill and speed, in my experience. Even a 2nd Dan gets pwnzored by a 70yo master in seconds. It happened to my sensei, it can happen to yours too!

Indeed. Im taught that if a fight isnt over in under 6 seconds, they are doing something wrong.

[JediMaster415]

When I say flashy moves, I also mean fast moves. so either way, it boils down to other things, like terrain, or weapon choice. With a single saber, mule moves, because you can't overwhelm your opponent like with a saber staff or dual sabers. However, a truly skilled opponent, (who would unlike obi wan just stab Greivous) will see through such illusions.

Didn't Obi-Wan try stabbing Greivous on Utapau?

[Ford Prefect]

Listen to Bruce Li, for he is master (The following is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Did I just spell that wrong? Nevermind) You only make the necessary movements when fighting. Just enough, that's it.

Sure, those crazy moves will work (Think Myugen of Samurai Champloo fame) but they will be outdone by someone with a simpler style.

And as for stabbing Grievous, do not notice the inherent danger in thrusting against an opponent with four whirling dervishes of destruction and death? Obi thrusts forward. Grievous uses two of his sabers to defend, uses the remaining two to kill Obi Wan dead.

[The Jazz Intern]

weemadando, good point, I hadn't thought of that. But it is possible to overwhelm the opponent with flashy moves. What will be scarier and/or more more distracting, a lightsaber pointed at your midsection in mid parry, or a twirling raging blade of enegy in constant movement towards your face?

[weemadando]

The scarier is the guy standing there, just waiting for me to make a single fucking twitch, because he knows that as soon as I do that, I die.

[The Jazz Intern]

okay, I see.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You need to watch more samurai movies.

[weemadando]

What you need to do is try and beat a kendo master...

I've tried it. With nearly ever weapon I could think of short of projectiles. It just doesn't happen.

Whats even worse is when you get someone who's proficient in about 20 different sword/staff/other weapon techniques. They know exactly what you are going to try before you try it. Add that to Jedi pre-cog and you are in for some serious hurtage.

[Ford Prefect]

I've had the pleasure of watching an old Kendo master at work, and the man was crazy. In the way that you could barely see him move. Took him two swings and wow, if this was real, you'd be dead (This is reason why Stewie is such an obvious liar. Oh yeah, he beat his kendo master with ease, right, yes, of course.)