saber slingers- fancy or mule moves?

[Kerneth]

This has pretty much already been said, but I thought I'd reiterate.

Flashy moves might make sense in a fight against groups of people who aren't trained in melee combat--ie, Jedi vs groups of blaster-using thugs who are probably going to be more prone to being impressed by the Jedi bouncing all over the place whirling his lightsaber around. Besides, a moving target is harder to hit with a gun.

Fighting against another trained swordsman isn't the same thing, particularly not one that is also familiar with what kind of agility and capabilities the Force provides its users--they aren't going to be impressed unless those flashy stunt moves are FAR beyond something they themselves can manage. And they're going to be PERFECTLY happy letting you expend all your energy trying to show off while risking making a serious mistake and providing your opponent with an opening--like landing on a loose rock or slippery floor and stumbling.

Finally, you can't change direction in midair. If you jump up over your opponent's head, he KNOWS which direction you're heading, he can probably guess where you're looking to land--and if he's already on the ground, it's fairly simple for him to move enough to throw the bouncy swordsman's aim off while launching an attack aimed not at the guy jumping, but at where the guy is going to land.

[Mobiboros]

As a fencer I'm all about economy of motion. No big, flashy swipes. No whirling the blade in circles. Wait for an opening or make an opening, then stab.

Flashy moves are nice, and some styles call for them (Many chinese styles emphasize whirling moves). It puts a lot of power into the strike, but it also slows down the strike.

My feeling, stabbing. Though I do like the idea of light polearms that was suggested and I think in some of the comics there are characters who had them.

[Darth Yoshi]

The Magnaguard had a pole waepon that blocked lightsabers, but I dunno if that counts.

Finally, you can't change direction in midair. If you jump up over your opponent's head, he KNOWS which direction you're heading, he can probably guess where you're looking to land--and if he's already on the ground, it's fairly simple for him to move enough to throw the bouncy swordsman's aim off while launching an attack aimed not at the guy jumping, but at where the guy is going to land.

Case in point, Ani vs. Obi.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Case in point, Ani vs. Obi.

Vader versus Kenobi.

[Eleas]

I've had the pleasure of watching an old Kendo master at work, and the man was crazy. In the way that you could barely see him move. Took him two swings and wow, if this was real, you'd be dead (This is reason why Stewie is such an obvious liar. Oh yeah, he beat his kendo master with ease, right, yes, of course.)

I've never beaten mine, but I think I would, given a few years more of training. The simple reason for that is that everyone has a lucky day once in a while. And even the best (which realistically will almost invariably be found in Japan anyway) aren't invulnerable to conventional technique. Just very, very good. As in, "I've devoted the majority of my waking life to training four basic techniques, and I know them better than my children".

Yes, they are that scary.

[Darth Yoshi]

Vader versus Kenobi.

Ani vs. Obi rhymes.

Besides, somewhere out there is an idiot who would have thought I was talking about ANH if I had used Vader vs. Kenobi.

And yeah, kendo masters are scary. I've seen guys with only a few years of experience go at each other with shinai, and even at such a relatively unexperienced state compared to masters, it's amazing to watch.

[gizmojumpjet]

As a fencer I'm all about economy of motion. No big, flashy swipes. No whirling the blade in circles. Wait for an opening or make an opening, then stab.

Flashy moves are nice, and some styles call for them (Many chinese styles emphasize whirling moves). It puts a lot of power into the strike, but it also slows down the strike.

My feeling, stabbing. Though I do like the idea of light polearms that was suggested and I think in some of the comics there are characters who had them.

I'm wild about hearing the opinions of an actual duellist. Totally based on your opinion, how would someone trained in traditional fencing deal, for example, with Anakin's aggression?

There may not be a "suitable" explanation. Faulted you are not.

[Eleas]

I'm wild about hearing the opinions of an actual duellist. Totally based on your opinion, how would someone trained in traditional fencing deal, for example, with Anakin's aggression?

There may not be a "suitable" explanation. Faulted you are not.

There are several options. For some as quick and tireless as Anakin is, you'd have to beat a controlled retreat and/or distract him with sudden stabs. But really, the situation is much to generalized. For every moment, you choose an appropriate technique. If the opponent favors do, for example, you could present him with the trigger he unconsciously knows is a perfect situation for a do, and then counter his technique much more effectively. Or you could to a double- or triple technique, in the hopes that the opponent doesn't expect it. Or you can wait for his attack to come and meet it headlong, deflecting it followed by an immediate strike. Or you do a hiki-men, a jump backward followed by an immediate attack step forward. There are many more methods, and their usefulness are in constant flux throughout the fight.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The main thing my fencing instructor taught me is this:
A- maintain x or y distance, any less or more and youre basically screwed.
B- Watch the opponent's blade, if you have a lock on it then it's very hard for him to feint or block.

In that sense Flashy makes more sense since it means that that the faster more agile fighter will gain both advantages, A fact that Obi-Wan does in ROTS.

However Mule is much better in terms of economy (as has been stated) and is apparently better for those without the force power (Luke), energy to waste (Ben) or simple lack of agility (Vader) that flashy requires to be effective.

[Meest]

Also need to note, that with lightsabres even more so than blades, you can't afford to be hit/nicked at all or you're toast. With swords and armour you need to drive and put power or hit weak points or else your blade is just going to deflect off. Picture this scenario, swords and armour, you casually flick at someone's armoured forearm with no real effort, it deflects off and you get promptly countered and maimed/killed. Now with lightsabres you flick at someone's forearm the same way and score => disabled opponent => dead. I really liked that in ROTS, Anakin did a clever but dangerous disarming of Dooku, made up for that baseball swing to Dooku's head earlier. Why swing for someone's head when their hands/extremities are right there for the taking. Though I think it was a nice example of getting the better of an unbalanced opponent.

Also consider the hestitation you'd have when fighting in a life and death situation, hell even professional competitors in armour are hestitant to take a wack. You can't screw up at all or you're dead, no reset and practice again. There's alot more unconventional scurring/dodging about I would imagine, at the same time unless there was some need to force the fight alot of feeling out and waiting. But maybe that's just the difference in sport vs soldier swordplay, from what I've seen there's more desperately quick thrust/slashes at openings than choreographed spinning stabs ala Maul on Qui Gon, would've been more of a simple swipe to drop him, not fancy spinning stab.

The Palpatine fights were also weird, he would slice right under a prepared opponents guard without attempts to dodge or parry. Yes he's supposed to be great and you might say that's an example of efficient kills, but that assumes your opponents magically get tarded and won't defend, especially the first two who dropped. Did he even kill using any counter moves? I just remember him tearing through motionless meatbags. Just didn't seem right unless they did some effect to show him superhumanly fast.

This is life and death you win by not being pretty but by winning anyway possible even if it's a simple thrust so I'll say "fast" mule moves . As for taking out Anakin's aggression, I was suprised there were few sidesteps in that fight, with him constantly charging and occasional overhead swings I'd sidestep and go for his waist or legs on the way out.

[Stark]

I like how Obi-wan has grown out of his ridiculous spinny-bullshit style of TPM into a more reserved style, and by ANH he'd become an excellent calm fighter. Compare to Anakin who never grew out of the 'young' style until he lost all his limbs.

It's easy to win despite being flashy when you're young, when you're faster and stronger than you'll ever be again. However, if Anakin fought properly, he'd kill his enemies much quicker, as his reflexes and strength would allow him to void his enemies weapon and kill them. His inability to kill Obi-wan is actually quite laughable: in my opinion, he's a TERRIBLE fighter. Given all his advantages, he would have killed Obi-wan easily if he'd been calm.

On Chinese styles, I've found them initially startling and off-putting, but unless they are VERY good, they are often easy to lure into launching an attack or getting stuck in the wrong rest position.

[weemadando]

I've kicked the arse of more people using the flashy chinese styles than I care to count. Half the time during sparring I'm even confident enough to take on some of them bare-handed as they have no clue what they're doing.

Compare this to Wei, who I trained with/under for a year or so, who could put 4 of us (armed) on our arses in about 5 seconds with HIS barehands/feet/forehead/elbows/knees/OWWWWW...

Mule styles work well for anyone. Flashy doesn't. For masters this can change dramatically, but I still give it to the guy who's balanced, calm and attentive.

And again - WHY NO LIGHTSABER POLEARMS?

[The Grim Squeaker]

WHY NO LIGHTSABER POLEARMS?

Why not 4 sided great lightsabers that fire energy bolts?
(I saw someone post this once)

[Stark]

*sigh*... Jui-jitsu sensei took on his ten best students (3 browns in there), weapons around the room that he wasn't allowed to use. It was wonderful to watch, but I bet his students were kinda demoralised after having their asses handed to them in seconds each, for FIVE MINUTES.

What sort of polearms are you thinking? I think just a simple spear, six or seven feet long, with a short blade on the end would be great. Fatten the blade if you can, and everyone using styles based on sword duelling would be in for a real surprise. A friend of mine always wanted to see Maul use his sabre as a long-handled polearm, like a naginata or something.

[weemadando]

Yeah, like I was asking previously - we know that there are lightsaber resistant materials that a shaft can be built from, why not something like a Naginata, Yari, Halberd or other pike?

6' staff + 3' blade = death on a stick.

[Adjudicator]

Yeah, like I was asking previously - we know that there are lightsaber resistant materials that a shaft can be built from, why not something like a Naginata, Yari, Halberd or other pike?

6' staff + 3' blade = death on a stick.

One of the supposed reasons may be something to do with Standard Doctrine / Dogma / "Honour Code" of the Star Wars Jedi / Sith.

A more "reasonable" (For lack of a better term) reason (In my opinion) is that a deactivated Lightsaber / pair of Light Sabers / Lightstaff is easier to wear on a utility belt / conceal.

An Energy Polearm, even if the shaft was made of anti-lightsaber / lightsaber resistant material, still takes up a goodly amount of physical length deactivated (Unlike Lightsabers / LightStaff which can be worn on a belt)

EDIT: Just want to raise another concern with Energy Melee weapons using Lightsaber technology: Can these weapons be used underwater? (A force polearm has the added advantage of being marginally useful underwater even if it cannot be activated.)

[McNum]

EDIT: Just want to raise another concern with Energy Melee weapons using Lightsaber technology: Can these weapons be used underwater? (A force polearm has the added advantage of being marginally useful underwater even if it cannot be activated.)

Depends on if you waterproof it. Kit Fisto could use his saber underwater in the Clone Wars cartoon, while Obi-Wan had his lightsaber short out in the TPM novelization because it got wet in the Naboo forest. (That's why Qui-Gon had to take care of the battle droid in the movie.)

[Mobiboros]

I'm wild about hearing the opinions of an actual duellist. Totally based on your opinion, how would someone trained in traditional fencing deal, for example, with Anakin's aggression?

There may not be a "suitable" explanation. Faulted you are not.

There are several options. For some as quick and tireless as Anakin is, you'd have to beat a controlled retreat and/or distract him with sudden stabs. But really, the situation is much to generalized. For every moment, you choose an appropriate technique.

I pretty much agree with this. There is no one single way to deal with it. It's based on personal style (as everyone mods a style t fit themselves), terrain, speed, distance, and any number of other factors.

I will say they make a number of mistakes that are likely only acceptable because of jedi precog.

They spin. By this I mean they bodily spin around to execute moves. Every once in a while for a surprise attack can be forgiven but a rule of thumb is don't expose your back unless you want to be stabbed in it.

All the whirling moves. They spin the blade like a wall in front of them. It's too easy to step in, thrust and let them sweep your blade into themselves with the whirl.

They leave their arms exposed. I've had teachers rap me on the elbows with a wooden stick long enough to know you do not leave your elbows so wide. People seem to forget arms are targets. If your enemy disables your arms, you lose.

They leave their legs exposed. Or rather no one ever seems to attack their legs. Unless it's a plot device. Legs are also valid targets. If you can't walk you are at a severe disadvantage.

Too many flips/jumps. This is just as bad as turning your back with the added disadvantage that once you leae the ground you can no longer really dodge.

That's just some problems I saw in my watching. I'm sure others can point out more as well.

[Eleas]

All the whirling moves. They spin the blade like a wall in front of them. It's too easy to step in, thrust and let them sweep your blade into themselves with the whirl.

I did like the spins used between Vader and Kenobi in RotS, when they use them as some sort of complex feint. The spins were quick enough that a sudden attack could come from any angle at any time, IIRC.

[The Grim Squeaker]

All the whirling moves. They spin the blade like a wall in front of them. It's too easy to step in, thrust and let them sweep your blade into themselves with the whirl.

I did like the spins used between Vader and Kenobi in RotS, when they use them as some sort of complex feint. The spins were quick enough that a sudden attack could come from any angle at any time, IIRC.

Maybe the spinning makes it harder for the opponents pre-cog to help him,
also it is much scarier foe non force wielding foes.

[Alex Moon]

I'm wild about hearing the opinions of an actual duellist. Totally based on your opinion, how would someone trained in traditional fencing deal, for example, with Anakin's aggression?

There may not be a "suitable" explanation. Faulted you are not.

There are several options. For some as quick and tireless as Anakin is, you'd have to beat a controlled retreat and/or distract him with sudden stabs. But really, the situation is much to generalized. For every moment, you choose an appropriate technique.

They leave their legs exposed. Or rather no one ever seems to attack their legs. Unless it's a plot device. Legs are also valid targets. If you can't walk you are at a severe disadvantage.

Attacking the legs is actually a bad idea. Simple geometry puts the attacker at a disadvantage.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Mobiboros wrote:
Eleas wrote:
gizmojumpjet wrote:
I'm wild about hearing the opinions of an actual duellist. Totally based on your opinion, how would someone trained in traditional fencing deal, for example, with Anakin's aggression?

There may not be a "suitable" explanation. Faulted you are not.

There are several options. For some as quick and tireless as Anakin is, you'd have to beat a controlled retreat and/or distract him with sudden stabs. But really, the situation is much to generalized. For every moment, you choose an appropriate technique.

They leave their legs exposed. Or rather no one ever seems to attack their legs. Unless it's a plot device. Legs are also valid targets. If you can't walk you are at a severe disadvantage.

Attacking the legs would leave your upper body hopelessly exposed.

[nightmare]

Nitpick: Hong Kong Action Movie fighting styles, not "Chinese styles". It's no more real than Hollywood fighting.

When it comes to fighting, less is more. That's all I have to say about that.

[Mobiboros]

Attacking the legs is actually a bad idea. Simple geometry puts the attacker at a disadvantage.

That's really only true if someone executes a poor or unskilled attempt to strike the legs. Strikes ot the legs or head require some complexity to execute properly. They are often strikes of opportunity but they aren't inherently and more disadvantageous than any other strike if done properly.

It's when they aren't that you open yourself up too much and expose yourself.

EDIT: I should note that every attack is opening yourself up to counter attack. There's no such thing as a perfect attack. The minute you begin to execute an attack you've moved your sword from the guard position and your opponent now has an opening to attack you as well.

[Eleas]

Guys, Naginata styles still incorporate attacks on the legs. They frequently surprise Kendo stylists. And, really, I suspect that a large reason for the removal of leg attacks in classical Kendo is that the ready stance is more narrow than it really should be.

The stance used in Kendo is fine on a perfectly smooth, controllable surface with good traction and no obstacles. Try using it in uneven terrain, wind, rain, etc let alone a battlefield and you'll soon see the necessity of a much wider stance. Which exposes your legs accordingly.