[Acceleration] Whitestar

[Connor MacLeod]

For example, assuming the WS was 10,000 tons, and had a terminal velocity of around 800 km/s and took 45 seconds to accelerate to that time, it would have an acceleration aroud 1800 gees. The KE yield from the impact would have been about 3.2e18 J, or about ~750 MT of TNT.

If the ending velocity were around 900 km/s (close to the upper limit for the KE being comparable to the 2 500 MT bombs), the acceleration would be around 2000 gees.

[Moonstone Spider]

Saying the WS couldn't generate a GT of energy because of that GT warhead seems silly. If I can generate a Gigaton of power, I'm certainly not going to turn down an addition Gigaton, double your firepower is always a good thing. Maybe they can generate 5 Giggatons, adding a sixth Giggaton is still better.

Of course if the WS had an engine output of 150 Teratons we could reasonably think puny Gigatons of firepower are irrelavent. But they could produce many times more power than the warheads themselves and the warheads would still be a welcome boost to their firepower.

[Enlightenment]

For instance, if the White Star were capable of over 150,000 G's of acceleration and it had the same mass as a modern Boeing 747, it would need a fuel supply equivalent to over 150 GigaTons of energy. If the fuel alone could release that much energy, the bombs Sheridan put on board would have been pointless.

To add to your case, the White Star is going to mass a lot more than a modern 744. There are 744s on the market with an MTOW of around 400 metric tons; however the 744 measures only 71x60x20 (LWH, meters), the vast majority of which is empty space. Scaling estimates for the White Star often come in at around 310x145x52, and while the vast majority of volume contained by the WS' extents is empty space there's no reasonable way for something that large to mass a mere 400 tons.

For some perspective, a 310x145x52 meter box is large enough to contain approximately six Nimitz CVNs (333x76x12, 100,000t displacement). Six Nimitz class CVNs would mass 600,000 tonnes, but real aircraft carriers are much dense (in terms of bounding volume enclosed by hull) than the are the White Star class ships. Pulling a number out of thin air I'd peg the WS as about 1/2th as dense as a Nimitz, for a mass of around 300,000 tons. Minimum.


Incidentally, 300,000 tons slamed into a planet at a paltry 500km/s yields around 9gt. Up the impact velocity to 2% c and the yield rises to 1.3tt, or nicely into the range of being able to scrub a planet free of the vast majority of its inhabitants.

[Darth Wong]

That's an interesting point: the WhiteStar's acceleration is limited by the fact that it could have simply used itself as a kinetic bomb at Za'ha'dum if it were high enough.

I suppose we could argue that Sheridan didn't think of that, but it's not as if ramming is an unknown concept in B5.

[[BL]Phalanx]

1.) Minbari reactors can be set to self destruct. The White Star is at least partially Minbari technology (actually, mostly. ) IF we go by what B5 Wars tells us, it has a reactor system, not a capacitance system like the Vorlon ships use. Perhaps this is an argument in favor of the Minbari's reactors not being typical fusion, I don't know.

I doubt it could be used to argue that the Minbari aren't using "typical fusion". I don't know much about modern fusion reactors, but I *think* they don't "store up" power, either.

I know Minbari reactors can be set to self-destruct. That's not proof that the Whitestar can do the same. Omegas (and all EA ships in general) seem to have very stable reactors. The whole ship can be trashed and the reactor doesn't go up.

2.) They may not be "fragile", but the reactors can explode if damaged - the Omega in War Zone was proof enough - even then, its not relevant if they deliberately set it to do so, or if the fuel supply is particularily reactive (IE antimatter.)

I didn't see much of Crusade, so could you describe the incident to me?

I don't think we can say with certainty that their reactors involve anti-matter. As far as I know, "fusion" is what is stated, and there isn't anything B5 ships have done (that I know of) that would require something more powerful than nuclear fusion.

As a side note, we should point out that Ted C's point would also invariably require energy generation involving annihiliation techniques like matter/antimatter to get any sort of reasonable energy generation (I estimate it would take some 1 million kg of reactants to equal Ted's 150 GT estimate.) I estimate A M/AM reaction at say, about 25% efficiency could yield that same amount in about 28-30 tons.

Well, there are problems with my initial calc in the first place. So I still can't say "well the Whitestar could use M/AM"...

3.) Even if we assume the reactors can't be set off like a bomb, the WS has other ways of inflicting damage - orbital bombardment, kinetic impact through ramming (they dropped the ship from above anyhow - and think about how effective it would have been.) The "kinetic impactor" aspect is perhaps the hardest to deny, and the greatest proof against the acceleration calcs.

Well, how hard could the Whitestar have rammed into Z'ha'Dum? It was in orbit of the planet and wouldn't have as much room in which to accelerate... so it wouldn't be able to pick up as much speed on the way in.

Actually I'm getting confused now. What are we arguing over? I realize there are problems with my calc and I'm revising them, so...?

The Trigati deliberately set its reactors to detonate. The two examples are not remotely comparable.

That's true, but can a Whitestar do the same with its reactors? We already know it incorporates Vorlon technology, which standard Minbari ships don't have. We also know it was designed to fight in packs and travel in tight formations. It wouldn't be a good idea to design it with a reactor that can blow up spectacularly... you'd only end up damaging the other Whitestars in formation.

We don't *know* conclusively that a Whitestar can rig its reactors to self-destruct. That's what I'm saying.

Ted's points still stand, for the reasons I've mentioned. Regardless of the method of destruction, it still points to the fact that the WS could not generate any more than a 1000 megatons of power at any given instant.

Yes, but how *fast* would that "instant" be? 1 second? A tenth of a second? Or that the Whitestar couldn't get up to a high enough velocity to deliver 1000 MT in the distance she had to travel from orbit to the surface of Z'ha'Dum?

Err, wait. You're refuting the guesswork in Ted's calcs? Isn't the same true of the so called "production rate" calcs for the "Xha'Dam" base in "Armies of Light and Dark?" There is certainly alot of ambiguity THERE as to the timeframe, as I've repeatedly TOLD Fivers in the past. One can derive a POSSIBLE estimate based on the assumptions usually made, and they CAN be interpreted in that fashion, but they are by no means concrete estimates.

Yes, but we usually err on the side of the lower numbers by assuming a full day elapsed in that incident in "Armies of Light and Dark". Besides, if you really want to be exacting, I *could* go and re-read it, trace the time line carefully, and come out with the maximum possible time.

I'm not refuting Ted C's calcs, actually. I'm saying that it doesn't have to stop there. Someone else could say "maybe it took a day" and I wouldn't be able to say otherwise, since I have no proof. *You* might be reasonable and say "yes, I don't think the chase lasted hours"... but I can't rely on someone else to be reasonable.

Even moreso, its ridiculous to assume that the Shadows can build massive planetkillersr in mere minutes or hours if it takes them months or even years to build the smallest class of shadow cruiser (the patrol cruiser from "Wars of the Ancients" is specifically stated to take a "few months or even few years" to grow, which is for those ships a "short production cycle.") Or beyond that, why would Primordials take centuries to grow to their full measure (rather than being artificially grown as Ancient vessels are) if said PKs (which are VASTLY more powerful) take minutes or hours?

Those primordial vessels were built a long time ago in Shadow history. Even the First Ones evolved over a long period of time. Many started out without the ability to go FTL! It's not inconceivable that their construction capabilities improved. Just look at the huge difference in productivity between 100 years ago and modern times. You find a *huge* difference.

It seems that if there are some Fivers are willing to SOME calcs on Guesswork, then Ted C is perfectly justified in doing so as well.

*sigh*

I actually find Ted C's calcs reasonable. A 10-15 minute time frame isn't stretching it. However, if I *want* to be "conservative", I can't arbitrarily pull a number out of my ass and use it.

You just watch me try, and I can bet you that there'll be people disputing it. And you know what? They'd be right... I'd have no evidence to say otherwise. They could say "how do you justify a 10 minute time frame?" What would I answer with?

"Uh.... cuz it feels right?"

It doesn't work that way. Someone else can pull out a longer time frame and they'd have just as much backing. Gothmog used 45 minutes! Given observed firing rates, if the chase lasted that long, our heroes must be very damned lucky indeed...

With the SPK production rate, Fivers use a whole day as the time frame. I think that's reasonable, since Vir never ate, slept, or pissed during that time. If you like, I could always go back and trace the timeline and come out with a more exact figure (the maximum amount of time it could've taken).

[[BL]Phalanx]

My question is, if we assume that the WS WAS to be rammed into the planet in the observable timeframe, could we not generate acceleration calcs for this?

As I said before, the WS could not have generated more than a GT worth of kinetic energy, else the nukes would have been superfluous. If we know the time and estimate the mass (which we can do) for the WS, one can probably generate an upper-limit on acceleration for that instance.

We don't know the height of her orbit, but I suppose we could use a minimum figure. Then again... what's to stop someone from using a higher orbit for their math? It would actually give the Whitestar more room to accelerate to deliver the KE, thus getting *lower* acceleration figures. Again, we run into the problem where we have to arbitrarily pull out a number, and anyone else can pull out a higher number and be justified in doing so.

As for estimating mass... Fivers have done so in the past and got laughed at. Why is it applicable now? Before, Fivers used to estimate the mass of Omegas and Novas, and then assuming low-g acceleration, they could calculate power output. Such calcs have been rejected before on the basis that we could be overestimating the mass.

Now, I think you'd be able to calculate a reasonable mass for the Whitestar, but how's that stop someone else from using a different number?

You're trying to build this on shaky foundations.

Besides, the Whitestar doesn't appear to mass all that much. Thunderbolt weapons were able to visibly shove them around.

[[BL]Phalanx]

For example, assuming the WS was 10,000 tons, and had a terminal velocity of around 800 km/s and took 45 seconds to accelerate to that time, it would have an acceleration aroud 1800 gees. The KE yield from the impact would have been about 3.2e18 J, or about ~750 MT of TNT.

If the ending velocity were around 900 km/s (close to the upper limit for the KE being comparable to the 2 500 MT bombs), the acceleration would be around 2000 gees.

Okay, now what's to stop someone from using higher mass figures, pushing *down* the acceleration?

And what's to stop someone from using a lower terminal velocity? Someone could assume 1 km/sec... what would I be able to say to that?

Nothing at all... someone could come out with a higher mass figure, a lower final velocity, and get a much lower acceleration.

[[BL]Phalanx]

That's an interesting point: the WhiteStar's acceleration is limited by the fact that it could have simply used itself as a kinetic bomb at Za'ha'dum if it were high enough.

I suppose we could argue that Sheridan didn't think of that, but it's not as if ramming is an unknown concept in B5.

Kinetic weapons aren't unknown in B5. They use mass drivers and railguns, and I'm sure that even if their military officers don't sit down to do the math for it, they have a general idea how much damage it delivers.

So yes, Sheridan should have an idea how hard the Whitestar could hit just from ramming. Problem is, we don't know:

1.) The Whitestar's mass (big problem, IMO)
2.) Her distance above Z'ha'Dum (I guess this isn't too bad... just use a lower figure to be conservative)
3.) Her final speed (I guess you could time it, but again, someone could claim there was a time cut)

[[BL]Phalanx]

BTW, I'm still hoping someone has info on the depth of Jupiter's gaseous layer. I already posted some info from the probe we sent to Jupiter, but some of the information I don't understand.

Maybe I should pick an easier scene to do an acceleration calc on, like the shuttle lifting off from "End Game". No one can argue about a scene cut, because it's a single continuous shot, and we follow it all the way to orbit. (Unless they argue for time compression! LOL...)

[Ted C]

I don't think we can say with certainty that their reactors involve anti-matter. As far as I know, "fusion" is what is stated, and there isn't anything B5 ships have done (that I know of) that would require something more powerful than nuclear fusion.

On the contrary, you are claiming exactly that. If a White Star massed as much as a loaded 747 (approximately 400 metric tons) and it traveled 1,070,000 kilometers in 38 seconds from a relative stop, then it would require over 1,000 metric tons of deuterium fuel to provide the energy via nuclear fusion (assuming 100% efficiency).

Unless a White Star is using an exotic high-density fuel supply (like anti-matter), it cannot possibly achieve the kind of acceleration you are claiming.

[Ted C]

So yes, Sheridan should have an idea how hard the Whitestar could hit just from ramming. Problem is, we don't know:

1.) The Whitestar's mass (big problem, IMO)
2.) Her distance above Z'ha'Dum (I guess this isn't too bad... just use a lower figure to be conservative)
3.) Her final speed (I guess you could time it, but again, someone could claim there was a time cut)

1. I think we can reasonably guess that the White Star masses more than a 747 (an aircraft less than half the White Star's length).

2. I think it's feasible to determine the altitude of a geosynchronous orbit for an Earth-like planet. You could easily generate several different values (generating an example for Mars and assorted moons, for example).

3. If you know the altitude and the acceleration (and you claim to know the acceleration), then you can easily determine the final velocity.

[[BL]Phalanx]

On the contrary, you are claiming exactly that. If a White Star massed as much as a loaded 747 (approximately 400 metric tons) and it traveled 1,070,000 kilometers in 38 seconds from a relative stop, then it would require over 1,000 metric tons of deuterium fuel to provide the energy via nuclear fusion (assuming 100% efficiency).

Unless a White Star is using an exotic high-density fuel supply (like anti-matter), it cannot possibly achieve the kind of acceleration you are claiming.

Ted, read back a bit. We've already discarded my calcs and are looking for a new way to go about it.

I'm just saying that we can't assume that a Whitestar can rig its own reactor to blow. If it *could*, and Sheridan still needed those two 500 MT nukes, then the Whitestar cannot generate more than ~1000 MT *ever*. On the other hand, the Whitestar couldn't have plunged into Z'ha'Dum with much more than 1000 MT behind it.

[Darth Wong]

OK, so do we know its mass?

[[BL]Phalanx]

1. I think we can reasonably guess that the White Star masses more than a 747 (an aircraft less than half the White Star's length).

Someone else can easily "guess" a much greater mass, Ted. That's my problem with this... someone can apply the assumptions they want to get the results they want.

2. I think it's feasible to determine the altitude of a geosynchronous orbit for an Earth-like planet. You could easily generate several different values (generating an example for Mars and assorted moons, for example).

That might not work. We don't know what "geosynchronous" is around Z'ha'Dum. We don't know the rate of that planet's rotation, although we do know its gravity (1.3 g's, IIRC).

3. If you know the altitude and the acceleration (and you claim to know the acceleration), then you can easily determine the final velocity.

Ted, did you read all the way through the previous posts? I already admit my initial calculation isn't any good. We're actually trying to use this to solve for acceleration.

We don't know altitude, we don't know mass, we don't know the final speed, and we don't know acceleration. We can make estimates, but they aren't solid numbers.

[[BL]Phalanx]

OK, so do we know its mass?

Would it be possible to calculate based on how hard the Whitestars were shoved around by hits from Thunderbolt-class fighters? Ted C has some calcs on the power of those weapons. I don't know if that would work though.

[Enlightenment]

I don't think we can say with certainty that their reactors involve anti-matter. As far as I know, "fusion" is what is stated, and there isn't anything B5 ships have done (that I know of) that would require something more powerful than nuclear fusion.

IIRC the canon delta-v for a Sharlin is 0.01c. Assuming a mass of 3 million tons (a low end estimate by any standard), accelrating a Sharlin from standstill to 0.01c will require a bare minimum of

ke = 0.5mv^2

ke = 4.04E+022 joules

4e22j represents the mass energy of about 455 tons of matter.

The efficiency of the Minbari reactionless drive technology is not known, but let's generously assume that their drives are %75 efficient at converting power into movement. Increase the mass energy to 607 t.

Smilarly, the efficiency of Minbari power systems at converting physical reactions into useful energy is not known but again let's generously assume that their power systems are 75% efficient. Accelerating a Sharlin to 0.01c now requires the total anihilation of 809 tons of matter. It's perfectly reasonable for a ship the size of a Sharlin to carry 810 tons of fuel.

As for fusion, fusion is 0.04% efficient in converting mass into energy. 810/0.04 = 20,000 tons fuel load. This is again probably reasonable for a Sharlin.

Note, however, that the numbers get extremely ugly if the canon delta-v figure represents the Sharlin's one-way cruising speed (as in, it can accelerate to 0.01c, cruise, and decelerate back to be stationary relative to its starting point), and even worse yet if the canon delta-v represents the speed at which it can make a round trip without refueling. In the latter case the fuel load for antimatter would need to be 3300 tons or 84,000 tons in the case of fusion.

In short fusion will (to my surprise, to tell the truth) work, but antimatter makes a lot more sense for B5 ships. Certainly the Minbari have no excuse to stick with fusion.

[Howedar]

How are you measuring acceleration as a fraction of c?

[Darth Wong]

IIRC the canon delta-v for a Sharlin is 0.01c.

I'm sure lots of people know B5 like the backs of their hands and will snicker at this question, but where does that figure come from (and what units are you using)? I watched most of B5's series run, but only once, when it first aired. My memory is a little hazy, except for ITB which I own on DVD.

[[BL]Phalanx]

IIRC the canon delta-v for a Sharlin is 0.01c.

I'm sure lots of people know B5 like the backs of their hands and will snicker at this question, but where does that figure come from (and what units are you using)? I watched most of B5's series run, but only once, when it first aired. My memory is a little hazy, except for ITB which I own on DVD.

As far as I know, there is no canon delta-v for a Sharlin. Hmmm.... I think Enlightenment made a typo.

In one episode we are given a *velocity*, but not an acceleration. The velocity was given as 0.2 c. It was displayed on a computer terminal. But, given the rest of the display, it seems that it was giving statistics on a Sharlin, not actually displaying real-time data.

It doesn't tell us anything about acceleration though. For all we know, it could take hours for it to get up to that speed.

In one episode of "Crusade", it's mentioned in dialogue that the Excalibur can't go much faster than 0.75% c (0.0075 c). I forget what the circumstances were, but IIRC, they were running a search pattern. They would jump to normal space, scan the area to the limit of their sensors, then jump to hyperspace, move to the next area, jump back to normal space and scan the area.... rinse and repeat.

[Ted C]

I'm just saying that we can't assume that a Whitestar can rig its own reactor to blow. If it *could*, and Sheridan still needed those two 500 MT nukes, then the Whitestar cannot generate more than ~1000 MT *ever*. On the other hand, the Whitestar couldn't have plunged into Z'ha'Dum with much more than 1000 MT behind it.

I think we can reasonably assume that a White Star can deliberately detonate it's own engines for self-destruction purposes. After all, Minbari warcruisers built at least ten years earlier are capable of that feat.

That doesn't mean that detonating the engines won't release more than about 1000 MT; it just means that it won't release enough to make an extra 1000 MT an insignificant contribution to the resulting explosion. The White Star's fuel supply might be worth as much as 10,000 MT and without making the addition of a couple of high-yield nukes worthless. Likewise, the amount of energy that the White Star could have delivered with it's kamikaze dive should dwarf 1000 MT, either.

[Connor MacLeod]

In one episode we are given a *velocity*, but not an acceleration. The velocity was given as 0.2 c. It was displayed on a computer terminal. But, given the rest of the display, it seems that it was giving statistics on a Sharlin, not actually displaying real-time data.

Yes, Season 1 of Legacies. It was also the one with the odd figures (that many people discount.) It wasn't stats on the Sharlin either (supposedly, the Sharlin is much larger) - this was one of the smaller classes of cruiser (light cruiser perhaps.)

The given speed is probably not a real-time estimate but possibly either a top speed or an average cruise speed (limited by power output, navigational shielding against radiation or interstellar debris, etc.)

It doesn't tell us anything about acceleration though. For all we know, it could take hours for it to get up to that speed.

There has been some mention made of ItB when the Nova rammed the War Cruiser, as to why it didn't get out of the way (or how, for that matter, it let the vessel get that close.) I suppose that vessel may have been damaged, but I nver recalled seeing anything that indicated the engines were.

In one episode of "Crusade", it's mentioned in dialogue that the Excalibur can't go much faster than 0.75% c (0.0075 c). I forget what the circumstances were, but IIRC, they were running a search pattern. They would jump to normal space, scan the area to the limit of their sensors, then jump to hyperspace, move to the next area, jump back to normal space and scan the area.... rinse and repeat.

It wasn't from a filmed episode - it was from one of the JMS-released unpublished scripts for Crusade's season 1 - "To the Ends of the Earth" - the one where the Excalibur faces off against a Shadow hybrid. I believe it was the fastest speed they could achieve in realspace:

INT. EXCALIBUR - BRIDGE

We PAN to FIND Gideon in the command chair, Matheson nearby.

GIDEON
What’s our current speed?

MATHESON
Point seven five percent of light speed. We can’t go any faster than that in normal space.

GIDEON
Assuming they have the same limits we do, the laws of physics being what they are, their maximum speed should be roughly the same as ours.

Note that "limits" and "maximum" speed may be explained by several possibilities:

- Limits in protective capability of navigational deflectors

- limits in detection/reaction time to objects in path of ship (This need not apply strictly to large objects, but smaller objects as well.)

- lower speeds would also ignore time-dilation and other effects of higher relatavistic speeds (I believe there are rather unpleasant side effects.)

- increasing the max speed causes a correlating decrease in operational endurance - that is, it takes up far more energy to achieve higher speeds than lower. This is somewhat questionable and probably unlikely, since this would only really be a problem at VERY high velocities (near-c) and that they had no problem sustaining this velocity.

- there are reaction-mass concerns (or similar concerns) aboard the ship that limit speed. Again, questionable, but not impossible.

[Connor MacLeod]

I doubt it could be used to argue that the Minbari aren't using "typical fusion". I don't know much about modern fusion reactors, but I *think* they don't "store up" power, either.

No, I meant the fact that Minbari reactors can be set to self destruct. I dunno if fusion reactors could ("Self destruct" need not imply a bomb-like release of energy though, either.) - but its probable that it could happen in A/M reactors (just drop containment).

I used the Vorlon capacitance analogy as counter-evidence against the notion that the WS would NOT use reactors, since the only other source for a reliable power system would be the Vorlons.

I know Minbari reactors can be set to self-destruct. That's not proof that the Whitestar can do the same. Omegas (and all EA ships in general) seem to have very stable reactors. The whole ship can be trashed and the reactor doesn't go up.

Again, you're thinking that because they may have safeties in place to prevent accidental self-destruction, that means that they can't be made to self destruct at all (IE deliberately). In the case of the Trigati, that WAS possible. Being of Minbari tech (mostly) and with evidence to believe that the power system was NOT Vorlon in origin, we could believe a similar capacity exists in the Minbari, unless you can provide a reasonable amount of proof to assume otherwise.

I didn't see much of Crusade, so could you describe the incident to me?

An EA Omega class destroyer is pursuing a small Drakh ship and manages to force it to crash land on a planet being dug up by IPX. In the process, the Drakh ship inflicted enough damage on the Omega to cause its reactor to go critical, and it blew up. I could dig out the quotes if neccessary, but that would mean finding my Crusade CDs.

I don't think we can say with certainty that their reactors involve anti-matter. As far as I know, "fusion" is what is stated, and there isn't anything B5 ships have done (that I know of) that would require something more powerful than nuclear fusion.

If we use B5 Wars, the "Antimatter converter" technology infers they have reliable methods to create antimatter (reliable and efficient enough it makes a viable weapon comparable to something simpler like a particle beam or laser). That alone would infer they have antimatter technology.

This only tells us they have access to potentially more efficient forms of power generation - its quite possible that their AM generation technology is still somewhat inefficient, or they may not gain substantially more output than a fusion reactor (ie less than an order of magnitude.) Its also possible their fusion technology is more developed, and hence more "compact" - they can compensate for any difference in power generation by plugging in more reactors (and since they use reactionless drives, they dont have to carry propellant and could also afford more fuel.) By contrast, Antimatter reactors could be very large and bulky, and take up more space than fusion reactors would (Especially since despite this, the Minbari have not really "improved" on their AM tech in centuries.)

Another limitation is the inherent instability or "danger" of Antimatter over fusion - antimatter being less stable, is more prone to destroying a ship carrying it should containment be lost.

Well, how hard could the Whitestar have rammed into Z'ha'Dum? It was in orbit of the planet and wouldn't have as much room in which to accelerate... so it wouldn't be able to pick up as much speed on the way in.

Actually they could. Based on visuals for the ep they were obviously in orbit around the planet maybe at most a few tens of thousands of km away (farthest distance for a "high orbit" around a planet I've seen is 134,000 km, but most seem to infer at least 36,000 km.) Convenience would probably dictate geostationary (Presumably Sheridan needed the WS to be in line of site of his com so he could transmit the signal)

Which means it would probably have to be roughly close to Sheridan's position over that dome, and that geostationary is probably quite a reasonable assumption in this instance (the WS would need to keep a relatively "consistent" orbit over the same point to ensure that it was within LOS of that dome. Besides which, it would make sense to have it in a fixed point Sheridan knew, which he could then return to (esp if this is along a path he already knew or took.).

The only modifying factor might be Z'ha'dum's gravity, which isn't earthlike IIRC (I know invoking darkness put it at 1.3g, but I dunno if the series ever clarified.)

Actually I'm getting confused now. What are we arguing over? I realize there are problems with my calc and I'm revising them, so...?

I came in to help clarify some of Ted's points or at least try to.

That's true, but can a Whitestar do the same with its reactors? We already know it incorporates Vorlon technology, which standard Minbari ships don't have. We also know it was designed to fight in packs and travel in tight formations. It wouldn't be a good idea to design it with a reactor that can blow up spectacularly... you'd only end up damaging the other Whitestars in formation.

We already discussed the Vorlons and the fact that they use an entirely differnet power generation technology than the Minbari have access to, at best the Vorlons could perhaps offer some enhancements to their existing tech (liike the "improved" beam weapons the WS mounted.)

Further, you're again not making a distinction between "accidentally" self destructing and deliberately doing so. Your point about the WS's is perfectly valid in the case of accidental "overloads", but it is not applicable in a deliberate circumstance (in fact, its probably likely that any deliberate sabotage would WANT to take advantage of the "wolf pack" mentality.)

We don't *know* conclusively that a Whitestar can rig its reactors to self-destruct. That's what I'm saying.

We don't need to know conclusively. I've presented (or if you dont think I have, I'll repeate what I have, quotes included if need be.) evidence to suggest they CAN, and we have little evidence to the contrary. Unless there is some evidence I missed that supports your contention they can't.

Yes, but how *fast* would that "instant" be? 1 second? A tenth of a second? Or that the Whitestar couldn't get up to a high enough velocity to deliver 1000 MT in the distance she had to travel from orbit to the surface of Z'ha'Dum?

In this case, one or more seconds up to the timeframe limit for the WS's attack dive. But the timeframe isn't really as relevant as the actual energy output of both bombs and WS. (If we're comparing to say a hundreth of a second, the WS will generate 100x the destructive output of the bombs in a full second.. which STILL violates the limitation the bombs impose. Besides which, the circumstances would dictate that if timeframe were a factor, the time it takes from start to finish would be the "accurate" time.)

Yes, but we usually err on the side of the lower numbers by assuming a full day elapsed in that incident in "Armies of Light and Dark". Besides, if you really want to be exacting, I *could* go and re-read it, trace the time line carefully, and come out with the maximum possible time.

Except there IS no way to trace the time - there are no real indicators. Besides that, I did reread it, and there's a "Break" in between when Vir and the technomages were on the ship, and when they left. Its entirely possible to argue that they had to wait several days onboard the ship before getting closer.

Besides which, evne if we ignore the timeframe issue, there is also the fact that the argued "completion" of the Planetkiller relies on the accuracy of Vir's own perceptions on it, who is hardly a reliable source where the PKs are concerned (he was neither aware they were deployed, nor did he know what one was, nor was certain that it WAS complete, only that it looked to be so.)

I'm not refuting Ted C's calcs, actually. I'm saying that it doesn't have to stop there. Someone else could say "maybe it took a day" and I wouldn't be able to say otherwise, since I have no proof. *You* might be reasonable and say "yes, I don't think the chase lasted hours"... but I can't rely on someone else to be reasonable.

I'm pointing out that both sets of calcs involve guesswork, so that means that to accept one is to accept the other.

Those primordial vessels were built a long time ago in Shadow history. Even the First Ones evolved over a long period of time. Many started out without the ability to go FTL! It's not inconceivable that their construction capabilities improved. Just look at the huge difference in productivity between 100 years ago and modern times. You find a *huge* difference.

To a certain extent its fair to say their construction abilities improved - we know they switched to a "quantity over quality" method, but its irrelevant to my two points:

1.) They CAN increase the power of the ship, but this requires a VERY long time, measured in centuries or millenia (at least in the case of the Battlecruiser.) Even then, assuming that the "newer" ships are going to be vastly superior ot older ships sort of violates that "primordial ships being more powerful than the modern ships" phiosophy that gets so commonly tossed about, doesnt it?

2.) Even if we disregard the above, there is still the patrol cruiser to contend with and which directly contradicts the Armies of Light and Dark calcs (stated value versus estimated one.) Patrol ships aren't expressly primordial (they're still made in ancient times.) If the SPKs can be constructed in hours and minutes, are we going to assume that the patrol cruisers and smaller vessels take mere seconds?

3.) I might point out that the Triad can take "minutes" to construct dozens of vessels from pure energy, but those vessels aren't "real" in the same fashion that I am - they only "Exist" so long as the Tri keep feeding them energy.

I actually find Ted C's calcs reasonable. A 10-15 minute time frame isn't stretching it. However, if I *want* to be "conservative", I can't arbitrarily pull a number out of my ass and use it.

I don't recall if Ted said they are arbitrary or not. If they're "reasonable" - then how is this any different from the "reasonable" numbers used to justify the SPK construction rates?

You just watch me try, and I can bet you that there'll be people disputing it. And you know what? They'd be right... I'd have no evidence to say otherwise. They could say "how do you justify a 10 minute time frame?" What would I answer with?

Then consider it an estimate if thats how you feel. OR even a guesstimate. But then I'm also pointing out that the true is the same of the SPK production rates, since they are based on numbers no more substantial than what Ted came up with.

It doesn't work that way. Someone else can pull out a longer time frame and they'd have just as much backing. Gothmog used 45 minutes! Given observed firing rates, if the chase lasted that long, our heroes must be very damned lucky indeed...

Not neccesarily. It would depend on the circumstances.

With the SPK production rate, Fivers use a whole day as the time frame. I think that's reasonable, since Vir never ate, slept, or pissed during that time. If you like, I could always go back and trace the timeline and come out with a more exact figure (the maximum amount of time it could've taken).

Go ahead, but I know for certainty that its STILL an implied estimate. While Vir's biologcal concerns are never mentioned, its never expressly denied either. And with the mention of the "break" between scenes occured while still on ship (pages 43-44 in the book, if you wish to check for yourself.) Its the pure ambiguity and lack of any definite time indicators that tell us this (at least to my knowledge.). And even then, there are quite a few OTHER problems with the calc. The main point IS though that we have no reason to take THIS estimate over a stated value(s) like we have from Wars of the Ancients, and its unlikely that SPKs can be produced infinitely faster than the smaller and weaker ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

We don't know the height of her orbit, but I suppose we could use a minimum figure. Then again... what's to stop someone from using a higher orbit for their math? It would actually give the Whitestar more room to accelerate to deliver the KE, thus getting *lower* acceleration figures. Again, we run into the problem where we have to arbitrarily pull out a number, and anyone else can pull out a higher number and be justified in doing so.

There are certain observed limits.

- I mentioned the benefits and requirements for Geostationary orbit and Sheridan's need to communicate with the ship and find it.

- We see the ship in orbit around the planet, and its close enough that the planet would occupy quite a bit of the screen, even though only part of it is visible. That alone sets some limits (its hard to argue millions of km off if the planet is occupying quite a bit of the screen, is it not?

- There are limits to how far one can be from a planet and still be "in" its orbit.

- By the end of the incidernt, the observed Velocity of the WS was rather slow (less than hundreds km/s, probably no more than a few tens of km/s) - Anna Sheridan easily had enough time to look up and see it coming down. If anything, my 1200 km/s estimate was generous.

As for estimating mass... Fivers have done so in the past and got laughed at. Why is it applicable now? Before, Fivers used to estimate the mass of Omegas and Novas, and then assuming low-g acceleration, they could calculate power output. Such calcs have been rejected before on the basis that we could be overestimating the mass.

High mass would argue in favor of far *lower* accelerations and velocities. Lower mass would faver higher velocities. Either way it works, the poitn would stand.

Besides which, even if we go with lower mass, there are still other considerations.

Now, I think you'd be able to calculate a reasonable mass for the Whitestar, but how's that stop someone else from using a different number?

Whether or not its reasonable. There's only so far you can stretch a given value by changing the variables (200,000 might be reasonable, 20,000 might be, or even 2,000 might be.. but 200 may not be. I dunno.)

Besides, the Whitestar doesn't appear to mass all that much. Thunderbolt weapons were able to visibly shove them around.

Then it favors a lower end mass. That doesn't neccesarily mean that the figures are going to be higher though.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, now what's to stop someone from using higher mass figures, pushing *down* the acceleration?

As you pointed out, those higher mass figures would argue for higher energy outputs. I'm perfectly willing to go with a lower mass figure.

And what's to stop someone from using a lower terminal velocity? Someone could assume 1 km/sec... what would I be able to say to that?

Not much. The observed final velocity of the WS when it crashes down through the dome argues for fairly low speeds, although to be fair that despite a fairly long timeframe (1 min 15 seconds to 1 and a half minutes) the distances could very well be fairly long (to a point.) and it still has to cover that distance. We could also assume that the ship accelerated then decelerted on its way down (but this would be kind of silly - if he's gonna destroy the ship anyhow, why bother slowing down) - but by that same notion we can assume that the velocity was still low enough to require manuvering (since it wasn't exactly a straight shot down.)

If we went with the 36,000 figure and the revised 90 second figure, the average velocity works out to 400 km/s. During the last few seconds on its way down, it could easily have slowed down to say 5-10km/s (although this still might be stretching things) to allow for fine manuvering. One could also argue the scene occured in slow motion (as with the torpedo drop down the trench in ANH) - although its still also affected by Anna's ability to look up before the ship goes boom.)

Ironically, 36,000 km distance and a 90 second timeframe by my cacls come out to around 800-900 gees acceleration, which is still quite conservative. If we plug in 200,000 km, we come up with 4900-5000 gees, still within the realm of possibility. At a distance of half a million km, the acceleration is 12,500 gees, although we're starting to stretch credibility due to the visuals I think.

Nothing at all... someone could come out with a higher mass figure, a lower final velocity, and get a much lower acceleration.

Possibly, but that value would be no more or less valid than the upper limit. It might be a lower limit for certain values (say 100,000-200,000 tons as Ted used) but certain values are going to be blatantly ridiculous - mutlimegaton (ie millions of metric tons) white stars.)

We're talking about establishing range values here. An upper limit is precisely that, an upper limit. Its not an absolute value, but rather setting limits to a specific range of values.

[Connor MacLeod]

Saying the WS couldn't generate a GT of energy because of that GT warhead seems silly. If I can generate a Gigaton of power, I'm certainly not going to turn down an addition Gigaton, double your firepower is always a good thing. Maybe they can generate 5 Giggatons, adding a sixth Giggaton is still better.

Of course if the WS had an engine output of 150 Teratons we could reasonably think puny Gigatons of firepower are irrelavent. But they could produce many times more power than the warheads themselves and the warheads would still be a welcome boost to their firepower.

One can argue that if Sheridan were concerned about adding more firepower he could have had Garibaldi rig multiple bombs into the WS as well.

For that matter, in the time it took the WS to hit the planet, it could very well have wreaked a DEVASTATING ground bombardment. And there's the fact that both the "volatile" weapons array can store significant quantites of energy (enough that they are a danger to ship's destruction if sufficiently damaged in combat) as well as the jump engines themselves. Energy just doesn't "disappear, after all."

Perhaps to within a certain degree there might be some variance, but not a significant amount.