Fundi camp for gays (need advice)

[Stark]

I was a pretty violent teenager: what happens when one of the inmates kills a staff member? Or are all the intake mindless fundy idiots anyway?

[Junghalli]

this cant possibly be legal, or stand up to scrutiny.

Since it's the parents (legal guardians) who send them there it is perfectly legal I'm afraid.

That's bullshit. Is child-abuse legalized by the state just because the parents do it (albeit indirectly)? You can still nail them for that, because that's what it fucking is.

I'm not defending it I'm just telling you the facts.
You'd have to prove to a court that this constitutes abuse. And since there are places like this all over the country (the only thing particular about this one is that its aimed at gays instead of just generic "problem" kids) all I can say is I wish you the best of luck.

I've lost all faith in democracy as a political system. Sorry, but people are stupid, brain dead cattle that shouldn't be in charge of their own diet, let alone the administration of a nation. With ignorance and bigotry at all-time highs, the Amercian people are simply unfit to rule.

You loose faith in democracy because morons and assholes exist?

I was a pretty violent teenager: what happens when one of the inmates kills a staff member?

He gets charged with murder.

[Darth Raptor]

You loose faith in democracy because morons and assholes exist?

No, because these morons and assholes are the overwhelming majority. Society is irreversably fucked. Shove it.

[Junghalli]

No, because these morons and assholes are the overwhelming majority. Society is irreversably fucked. Shove it.

The majority of people endorse shit like this? Care to back this up?

[Darth Raptor]

The majority of people endorse shit like this? Care to back this up?

False dillema, they don't need to endorse this specific practice for it to be a consequence of the general ingnorance and bigotry inherent in American society. It's already been mentioned how there's very little legal recourse for the victims of this abuse.

The fact that a gulag like this can even be built and maintained on US soil seriously calls American culture into question all by itself.

Furthermore, this is just the latest in a long series of offenses, don't think that the impossibility of Rupture Farms to be shutdown has invalidated democracy in my eyes. The system can only be as good as the people who run it, and you can't seriously argue that the majority of Americans are tolerant and enlightened. Sorry for not continuing to cheer for the Bestest Country in the World.

[wolveraptor]

I'm not defending it I'm just telling you the facts.
You'd have to prove to a court that this constitutes abuse. And since there are places like this all over the country (the only thing particular about this one is that its aimed at gays instead of just generic "problem" kids) all I can say is I wish you the best of luck

The ones focussed on problem kids clearly aren't the same things because a) they actually treat emotional PROBLEMS, problems being defined as something that causes HARM and b) they don't discriminate against a social group, unless you group all kids with "problems" into one social group.

Furthermore, a camp like this can't actually stop the problems, because gayness is hardwired. Emotional problems aren't always hardwired, and even if they are, they can be treated. Last I heard, the only "treatment" of gayness was castration, and I swear, I'll pull an Alan Horsely if any fundie espouses neutering for gays.

[Junghalli]

The ones focussed on problem kids clearly aren't the same things because a) they actually treat emotional PROBLEMS, problems being defined as something that causes HARM and b) they don't discriminate against a social group, unless you group all kids with "problems" into one social group.

As far as a fundie is concerned homosexuality is an emotional problem.
All I can say here is don't tell me, tell the courts.

Furthermore, a camp like this can't actually stop the problems, because gayness is hardwired.

I think, as with a lot of psychotherapy, the idea is to help people "manage" the "problem" rather than completely obliterate it. A lot of metal disorders which can't ever be made to fully go away can be managed and supressed (PS, I'm not trying to sound homophobic here, I'm just telling it the way they see it).

Last I heard, the only "treatment" of gayness was castration, and I swear, I'll pull an Alan Horsely if any fundie espouses neutering for gays.

Like most instincts, homosexuality can be supressed with sufficient willpower.
Also, I think I heard it mentioned somewhere farther back in the thread that the fuckwad who runs this place considers suicide preferable to homosexuality, so I wouldn't be surprised if he did advocate neutering for gays.
At this point I must say that if that's true it's really fucked up. Even assuming that it is an illness, how exactly is it a fate worse than death? The only mental illnesses (again, not being homophobic, just saying it the way they think of it) that would truly make suicide the better option would be IMO a violent, incurable, totally uncontrollable homocidal psychosis.

[The Grim Squeaker]

wolveraptor wrote:
The ones focussed on problem kids clearly aren’t the same things because a) they actually treat emotional PROBLEMS, problems being defined as something that causes HARM and b) they don’t discriminate against a social group, unless you group all kids with “problems” into one social group.

As far as a fundie is concerned homosexuality is an emotional problem.
All I can say here is don’t tell me, tell the courts.
Quote:
Furthermore, a camp like this can’t actually stop the problems, because gayness is hardwired.

I think, as with a lot of psychotherapy, the idea is to help people “manage” the “problem” rather than completely obliterate it. A lot of metal disorders which can’t ever be made to fully go away can be managed and supressed (PS, I’m not trying to sound homophobic here, I’m just telling it the way they see it).
Quote:
Last I heard, the only “treatment” of gayness was castration, and I swear, I’ll pull an Alan Horsely if any fundie espouses neutering for gays.

Like most instincts, homosexuality can be supressed with sufficient willpower.

It’s Biological.

[Junghalli]

It’s Biological.

Yeah, and? Human beings can supress biological instincts, it's just a matter of willpower.

[Eleas]

Umm children have never had the right to choose, what are you talking about?

Parents have ALWAYS had full legal control over their children. That being said, this is fucking disgusting.

If you're abusing your kids, even emotionally, you lose that right. That is how I've grown up, and I for one am happy about it.

You loose faith in democracy because morons and assholes exist?

Assholes are one thing. The fact that this very type of school has existed for a long time without meeting unified resistance is quite another matter. It's the fact that it's quietly being tolerated and tacitly allowed that is severely disturbing.

Tell me, what would happen if by some chance the unified criterium for attendance at these so-called "schools" was that the kids in question were retarded*, or perhaps dark-skinned? Racism and eugenics have been going out of style, and we could thus expect officials to, gee whiz, actually respond. But not in the case of homosexual kids, cause that would set a precedent. You know, something that the current borderline fundamentalist government refuses to do, for obvious reasons.

Not only that, but given a quick perusal of above mentioned rules, even an armchair psychologist would classify the entire operation as a textbook brainwashing attempt. Something's rotten in a country whose laws consider this to be said operation's private business.

He gets charged with murder.

Is that so? By whom? How can we know that he'll be held accountable for anything? Remember, first rule about the Camp is, we do not talk about the Camp. Inmates are indoctrinated not to communicate within the Camp, or spread any knowledge about the Camp. Inmates are conditioned in all ways that count into blind obedience. There are no secrets, there is no preference, there are no choices and there is no hope. You couldn't find witnesses more ready to accept a slightly doctored truth if you scraped the bottom of a sensory deprivation tank.

And if some kids are merely beaten severely, avoiding the whole murder scenario, there wouldn't even be the risk of someone finding out. So I ask: how can anyone expect to monitor a place tailor-made to stifle and/or distort knowledge of its operation?

This place should be illegal. It's that simple. But apparently, Bush stands by his decision to not "accept laws that ask society to make [the homosexual] lifestyle acceptable to the American people". I wonder if concentration camps are more palatable to that administration.





* Note that I do not mean to suggest in any way, shape or form that homosexuality is a retardation or even a deviation.

[The Grim Squeaker]

the .303 bookworm wrote:
It’s Biological.

Yeah, and? Human beings can supress biological instincts, it’s just a matter of willpower.

Let’s see you stop crapping, Or maybe you can choke yourself to death by suppressing your breathing by sheer willpower.


Homesexually orientated people are attracted pheremones of the same sex, unlike heterosexual people.

[Guardsman Bass]

It’s Biological.

Yeah, and? Human beings can supress biological instincts, it's just a matter of willpower.

I've got a wicked program for YOU! I want you to suppress your heterosexuality and religiousness for 2 weeks!

Since the above is OT, it is worth mentioning that the Camp Website says that there is no such thing as being a "homosexual," and that it is basically "emotional disorder" and compulsive behavior, like some sort of "gay virus."

Couldn't you successfully sue the program for psychological and physical damage, much like what is being done to the weird "out-in-nature" reform camps like this that exist?

[Eleas]

Couldn't you successfully sue the program for psychological and physical damage, much like what is being done to the weird "out-in-nature" reform camps like this that exist?

To treat it as just another business would be harmful, I think. Slapping them with a lawsuit is to grant these bastards a certain sense of legitimacy. You don't try to shut down drug dealers by suing them - they go to fucking jail. Which is what should happen here.

[Zero]

I think a good method would be to call some publicity to this place by burning it down. Of course, I don't wish to go to jail for arson, but... I'm considering it, after reading all that shit..

[Junghalli]

Let’s see you stop crapping, Or maybe you can choke yourself to death by suppressing your breathing by sheer willpower.

False analogy. Those are actions neccessary to survival. Sexuality is a slightly different animal.
OK, you think that you can't possibly supress a natural instinct? What about monks, nuns, and catholic priests who take chastity vows? Screw that, what about the guy who jumps on a hand grenade to save his squad? What about people who kill themselves?
Fuck that, when you go to the doctors office and get a shot you're using willpower to control your natural instinct (you think an animal or someone unfamiliar with the concept would stand there and let a fucking needle get stabbed into him?). When you put an eyedrop in your eye you have to consciously supress your natural instinct to flinch. Hell, back to your point, as a matter of fact we do temporarily supress our instinct to go to the bathroom when we're in public.

I've got a wicked program for YOU! I want you to suppress your heterosexuality and religiousness for 2 weeks!

Well, really I surpress my sexuality constantly to a certain extent by not feeling on every pretty girl I see, but let's not go there...
Yes, I could do what you ask. I wouldn't enjoy it, but if sufficiently motivated I could pull it off.

Couldn't you successfully sue the program for psychological and physical damage, much like what is being done to the weird "out-in-nature" reform camps like this that exist?

You could try. I'd be behind you, I don't like the idea of this place any more than you do.

[The Grim Squeaker]

You see a pretty woman, you feel lust.
Can you make yourself feel nothing whatsoever

[Zero]

Yes, but the process involves a complete distortation of what beauty is to you. I managed to alter my perceptions of what constituted an attractive woman. This, however, is nowhere NEAR the same as attempting to fundamentally alter your sexuality completely, or make it nonexistant. To do such things requires a good deal of brainwashing. I assume that this camp teaches the people to hate themselves so much that any confrontation with their own desires causes them pain. Specific harm to people... and the parents pay for it... I hate this fucking country..

[Faqa]

This shit is going to every message board I know. I'm not in America, where I could have more direct effect. Americans - contact the media, contact your lawmakers: DO NOT LET THIS GO UNCHECKED. Bring the world down on their asses.

Oh, right, in case my feelings on a concentration camp for deviants isn't clear....

[HemlockGrey]

My best friend and I discussed having ourselves submitted to this place the summer before we graduate high school as our senior project. The plan was to write up a big expose of what goes on in there. I don't think we actually have the balls to do it, but it's an idea.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Oh, right, in case my feelings on a concentration camp for deviants isn’t clear.... Middle Finger Middle Finger Middle Finger Middle Finger Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Amen brother


E-mail it also.

[RedImperator]

You see a pretty woman, you feel lust.
Can you make yourself feel nothing whatsoever

If he went to camp that carried out the exact same program against heterosexuals? Yes, he could. Or more specifically, he'd still have those urges, but he'd feel shame, revulsion, and terror of them, providing a good incentive for burying them (perhaps by desparately praying for forgiveness whenever he had such thoughts until they went away).

We condition soldiers to run TOWARDS enemy fire. Radical Muslims condition young men to blow themselves up. We condition children not to shit whenever they feel the urge. And the conditioning used in those cases isn't nearly as harsh as "Conversion Camp" or whatever they're calling it. With the techniques these assholes are using, it's perfectly possible to condition someone to suppress natural sexual instincts.

[wolveraptor]

That's not what we're discussing. I don't care if you CAN do it, is it considered abuse? It bloody well should be. Or maybe having terror and revulsion at your own visceral urges, impossible to completely surpress, any time you see a hot guy isn't bad enough.

People who send their kids here don't deserve to be parents.

[RedImperator]

That's not what we're discussing. I don't care if you CAN do it, is it considered abuse? It bloody well should be. Or maybe having terror and revulsion at your own visceral urges, impossible to completely surpress, any time you see a hot guy isn't bad enough.

People who send their kids here don't deserve to be parents.

Legally, I don't know. It would depend on how Tennessee defines abuse. Keep in mind, this isn't much different in methodology from those "boot camps" for kids with behavioral problems, and those are legal (though every now and then you hear someone talking about those places getting out of line). The difference is the behavior they're trying to change.

Ethically? Of course it's abuse. Brainwashing a kid to feel guilty and disgusted by his own sexual urges (essentially inducing a major neurosis) to satisfy the invisible sky fairy is abuse.

[Ford Prefect]

This sort of thing makes me sick. I'll make it the topic of one my Religious Education classes and watch everyone tear it apart, my Catholic teacher get incredibly angry at whatever fucked up son of bitch could do this, then attempt to get contact with the Archbishop, and watch get wrathful.

I mean, Jesus Christ Almighty in Heaven, this sort of place needs to be wiped from the face of history. Funies who could be so arrogant should be shot, or preferably, burned at the stake. I would travel to America right now to protest with a tank, if it wasn't impossible for me to do so.

In fact, this place doesn't need to be raided, it needs to be bomarded. By a Star Destroyer.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Well, fuck, here I was thinking I could remain silent indefinately on this board. Fat fucking chance.

I want to go into this concentration camp, seriously. I want to because I am fully confident that I can far better handle the emotional torture that goes on in there far better than most of the abduction-victims that are already there. I would more than happily sit there and deal with the attempted religious brainwashing simply because it would give me a chance to try and dismantle some of the harm it does from the inside. Most all the inmates there are, I'd guess, rather poorly prepared to deal with a full attempt at brainwashing, which is why it's easier to cow them into submission.

I'm guessing that most likely I'd be kicked out after a very short period because I'm one of those dangerous types who's become immune to brainwashing attempts, and could spread my 'heresy' to others. But then again, drama class could come in handy, pretending to be a good christaholic to others, while silently spreading hope to those less experienced in the realm of identifying and ignoring bullshittery.

*sigh* A nice fantasy, but most likely unworkable. I really hate the society that makes the thought of me putting myself through this emotional hellhole a good moral act.

~Damienkitty