Who Violated the 1st Amendment?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-06-11 07:06pm

wolveraptor wrote:
Lord MJ wrote:Legally, the school is in the right. The school has the right to regulate what it's students do at recess.

When I was in kindergarden, the teachers banned all forms of competition at recess or playtime.

We were only allowed to play games that didn't involve competition.

Ethically, I think it was totally wrong to forbid the students from having thier own Bible Study group.
Okay, what game DOESN'T involve competition? You went to a pretty wussy-ass school.

Tag is the only one that springs to mind.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-06-11 07:12pm

Not enough info to judge, really. If the kids are just sitting there, no prob. If parents are doing an end around to school reg's then it's bullshit.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-06-11 07:47pm

Ender wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:Okay, what game DOESN'T involve competition? You went to a pretty wussy-ass school.
Tag is the only one that springs to mind.

If tag is a non-competative game, someone needed to inform the people at my elementary school. The way I've seen it, tag tends to prey on the slower kids of the group. Whoever is it goes after them because they are easier to catch.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-06-11 07:56pm

It's true. The one who is "it" most of the time is losing. The ones who stay away most of the time are winning. It's pretty cut-and-dried.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-06-11 08:00pm

But last month, the Knox County Board of Education said that while reading the Bible is acceptable during free time, recess is not considered free time.

The Whitsons' attorney said it should be.

Since recess is not free time, then the school can regulate activities. I personally don't see why it shouldn't be considered free time, but as long as it's school policy prior to this incident, then I have no problem with putting the Bible away. Of course, for a more comprehensive opinion, further information is required.

wolveraptor wrote:Okay, what game DOESN'T involve competition? You went to a pretty wussy-ass school.

Doesn't a game, by definition, involve competition?

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2005-06-12 01:59am

sketerpot wrote:
Pick wrote:First Amendment doesn't come into it. At school, you do what you're told. That's how it works. If they say put down the damn Bible and run around like a snot-nosed little dork, then you do it. If their recess is designed for that and they tell it so, then that's what you have to comply with.
Not exactly. A student can't be forced to salute a flag, students can engage in nondisruptive symbolic speech such as wearing black armbands to protest a war, and in general:

Except a club is a disturbance (hence is disruptive by definition) to the general flow of school activies. If I want to wear an armband to protest a war, that's fine, but I can't have a rally during recess without frankly anticiptating the school to do something. I was unclear as to how far I made it sound like this went, but what I was really meaning was insofar as this case goes, however, free speech doesn't get involved before the right of the school to dictate student actions. After all, if first amendment were top priority, I could tell the teacher that he is a hideous human being and list valid reasons and not expect any reprocussions at all.

Post by **haas mark** » 2005-06-12 07:59am

Hrm.. My frist step back into SLAM in a long time.

Personally, while outwardly anti-Christian as I am, I believe that anything during recess that isn't being forced on other people is all right. It's along the same lines of putting other people in the position to play tetherball during recess if they don't want to.

I could understand if it were something like PE or some such, where they are actually required to be physical and play or something, but it's not. Every school I've been to (New Mexico, Virginia, Oklahoma, and even having heard from my cousin who lives in Knoxville) has never required that you not read something during the lunch/recess periods.

All in all, I don't really believe there is anything wrong with the bible studies during recess, in principle, but the fact that they said they're not allowed to bring Bibles is giving pause on the matter.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-06-12 11:39am

Hmmm..... and if he had been reading Mein Kampf, I wonder.....

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-12 01:00pm

Coyote wrote:Hmmm..... and if he had been reading Mein Kampf, I wonder.....

That written down peice of filth is [/b]illegal

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-06-12 01:06pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Coyote wrote:Hmmm..... and if he had been reading Mein Kampf, I wonder.....
That written down peice of filth is [/b]illegal

In the US? I don´t think so.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-06-12 01:15pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Coyote wrote:Hmmm..... and if he had been reading Mein Kampf, I wonder.....
That written down peice of filth is [/b]illegal

Like the question in the OP: there's this little thing we have called the First Amendment. It prevents us from making these things illegal.

PS- You got the tags mixed up again.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-12 01:24pm

.
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the states?

Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-06-12 01:33pm

the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the states?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty

"Mein Kampf" is legal pretty much everywhere besides in Germany, afaik.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-06-12 01:38pm

By the way, it´s not illegal to own or buy a used version, it´s only illegal to print because Bavaria has the rights on Mein Kampf. And since Bavaria isn´t printing it you can´t buy a new version legaly.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-06-12 02:44pm

The mood in the States about Nazism is that that is the sort of thing best exposed and left out in the open to public scrutiny-- it turns into public ridicule. Banning it would drive it underground, where it would thrive and actually gain sympathy as a "repressed" political alternative.

Here, neo-Nazis go on parades, wear their little uniforms and salute, and people come from miles around to laugh at them. Or sometimes no one comes and they are ignored and brushed aside as meanigless.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2005-06-12 03:12pm

Lord MJ wrote:Legally, the school is in the right. The school has the right to regulate what it's students do at recess.

Not according to Tinker v. Des Moines Ind. Comm. School Dist.

Subjects: First Amendment: Miscellaneous

Facts of the Case
John Tinker, 15 years old, his sister Mary Beth Tinker, 13 years old, and Christopher Echardt, 16 years old, decided along with their parents to protest the Vietnam War by wearing black armbands to their Des Moines schools during the christmas holiday season. Upon learning of their intentions, and fearing that the armbands would provoke disturbances, the principals of Des Moins' school districts resolved that all students wearing armbands be asked to remove them or face suspension. When the Tinker siblings and Christopher wore their armbands to school, they were asked to remove them. When they refused, they were suspended until after New Year's Day.

Question Presented
Does a prohibition against the wearing of armbands in public school, as a form of symbolic protest, violate the First Amendment's freedom of speech protections?

Conclusion
The wearing of armbands was "closely akin to 'pure speech'" and protected by the First Amendment. School environments imply limitations on free expression, but here the principals lacked justification for imposing any such limits.The principals had failed to show that the forbidden conduct would substantially interfere with appropriate school discipline.

Unless the prinicpal can show that the Bible reading was 'substantially interfering' with running the school and by that I mean that the Readers were causing the disruption (witnessing to those who don't want to hear it, etc), not those that objected to it were), the school is violating their 1st amendment rights.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2005-06-12 03:16pm

Pick wrote:
sketerpot wrote:
Pick wrote:First Amendment doesn't come into it. At school, you do what you're told. That's how it works. If they say put down the damn Bible and run around like a snot-nosed little dork, then you do it. If their recess is designed for that and they tell it so, then that's what you have to comply with.
Not exactly. A student can't be forced to salute a flag, students can engage in nondisruptive symbolic speech such as wearing black armbands to protest a war, and in general:
Except a club is a disturbance (hence is disruptive by definition) to the general flow of school activies. If I want to wear an armband to protest a war, that's fine, but I can't have a rally during recess without frankly anticiptating the school to do something. I was unclear as to how far I made it sound like this went, but what I was really meaning was insofar as this case goes, however, free speech doesn't get involved before the right of the school to dictate student actions. After all, if first amendment were top priority, I could tell the teacher that he is a hideous human being and list valid reasons and not expect any reprocussions at all.

The club isn't a disturbance under Tinker unless the club members are actively causing one (by witnessing to unwilling listeners, blocking access to areas, etc). The mere existence of opposition is not sufficient justification to close it down. Otherwise the Tinker ruling would be meaningless, as anyone who objected to the antiwar armbands could claim the wearing was 'disruptive'.

This said, we don't know all of the facts of the case.

Alliance SpecForceTrooper · Post by **Alliance SpecForceTrooper** » 2005-06-13 01:52am

the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the States?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty

Would have made it incredibly hard for me to do a thesis paper on Nazism in college if Mein Kampf were illegal. Not that it was edifying, mind you, its sludge as far as Im concerned.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-06-13 02:28am

Alliance SpecForceTrooper wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the States?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty
Would have made it incredibly hard for me to do a thesis paper on Nazism in college if Mein Kampf were illegal. Not that it was edifying, mind you, its sludge as far as Im concerned.

I saw a copy in Barnes and Noble like.. a week ago. It's definately not illegal in the US.

As for this incident.. does anyone see it as being even more fodder (especially with the way the media's jumped to report it) for our beloved friends, the 'we are being persecuted!!!1!1!one!' fundies?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-06-13 01:47pm

Nephtys wrote: As for this incident.. does anyone see it as being even more fodder (especially with the way the media's jumped to report it) for our beloved friends, the 'we are being persecuted!!!1!1!one!' fundies?

It was posted on a conservative message board long before it was posted here.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2005-06-14 11:28am

It would seem to me that the school is intruding on the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part of the 1st Amendment. Many school officials have a much poorer understanding of the Constitution and legal issues than they pretend. The rpimary rule in public education is "thou shalt not get sued" and the principal probably saw a bible and thought "OMGz0rs law5u1ts fr0m a3th3ists r teh sux0rz!!!111!!!1111eleven" and issued the ruling without much thought.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-06-14 11:44am

I think this is strictly a question of whether the school permits no reading of books at recess, or just no religious works. If the latter, the school is in the wrong. However, at this time there is no information either way.

Clearly, of course, if they were not just reading but 'creating a disturbance' then the book policy might not matter, but that becomes far more complicated, as has been discussed.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-06-14 03:19pm

the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the states?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty

You and George W. Bush would get along famously.

As for the story, there's too little information. Somehow, the lawyer's story of the Evil Principal taking away the Poor Children's Bibles just doesn't ring very credibly.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-14 04:51pm

Durandal wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the states?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty
You and George W. Bush would get along famously.

As for the story, there's too little information. Somehow, the lawyer's story of the Evil Principal taking away the Poor Children's Bibles just doesn't ring very credibly.

You take that back!.

has anyone seen more details on the news if they live near there?

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-06-14 05:19pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Durandal wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote: .
Also Mein Kampf is legal in the states?
Guess there is such a thing as too much liberty
You and George W. Bush would get along famously.

As for the story, there's too little information. Somehow, the lawyer's story of the Evil Principal taking away the Poor Children's Bibles just doesn't ring very credibly.
You take that back!.

Why should he? Both of you seem to share the same opinion of "too much liberty" for not illegalizing free speech.