Battletech in World War I

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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

PainRack wrote:are you thus going to argue that because light infantry don't have the same firepower as tanks, they aren't effective on the battlefield?
Actually, light infantry has the same firepower as tanks; and have so since
1973.

From No Victor No Vanquished:
During the first three days of the fighting the Israelis had made twenty-three armoured attacks of battalion size or larger, and all had been repelled. The basic reasons for these failures were that the Israelis had blindly put all their faith in a mass of charging tanks, rather like the heavy cavalry of old, anticipating they would automatically crush all opposition and cause the Egyptians to run away. In addition, tanks were easy prey to the determination and capability of the tank hunting teams which went out in front of the infantry and solidly stood their ground.

The Israelis knew the Egyptians had ample antitank weapons, but they were contemptuous of them and depended upon their tank gunnery to beat them in battle. The Israelis had also ignored the principle of concentration of force at a vital point and, instead, made scattered uncoordinated attacks along the length of the front. They later estimated the Egyptian antitank weapons to be of a density of "55 to the kilometre." The Egyptian tank-hunting teams were easy to spot out in the open, and one Israeli tank commander explained that he at first thought they were tree stumps until they moved. Expecting to fight tanks and not infantry, the Israelis had no HE shells for their guns, which would have broken up the Egyptian infantry and tank-hunting teams in open terrain. Then, too, in their tank formations they had no integral infantry or mortars which would have helped to counter the teams.

The Sagger antitank missile proved to be very effective when used in groups of three with all of them directed onto one tank. The shorter range RPG-7s proved to be effective at ranges of a hundred yards or more and also were fired in threes and fours, all aimed at one tank. The Snapper was much less effective, and one in four of its missiles was nullified by technical faults. General Herzog says that twenty-five percent of Israeli tank casual- ties were knocked out by antitank missiles, and the majority of these must have been hit in this initial three-day period when they were vulnerable because of faulty tactics. Corporal Abdul A'ata, a student at an agricultural college before he was conscripted into the Egyptian army in 1969, was credited with destroying twenty-three Israeli tanks on the sixth of October, including eight M-60s within the first hour. Later, when the Israelis changed their tactics, the antitank missiles became less effective. The Egyptians claim that seventy percent of the Israeli tanks left behind on the battlefield had been hit by antitank missiles.
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Post by Gunhead »

Here's a fun little quote from 3026 tech manual:

Pike support vehicle. "The main drawback of the Pike is, ironically, it's main weapon. The three zeusbolt long-range guns do not inflict much damage. Indeed, a hit from a Zeusbolt gun is equivalient to a the hit of a machinegun shot, or one short range missile hit."

Now we get to range.

"The Pike is also equipped with two small short-range missile racks for self- defence. The SRM's can fire accurately at targets at ranges of 120 or less."

This is from game fluff. Oh how I do ph34r their l33t ranges.

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Post by PainRack »

Gunhead wrote:Well then give me a quote from game fluff/novel where mech/tank engages an aerospace fighter in the toposphere. I know speed of the aerospace fighters wary, I just want high and low range.
You mean other than Compendium, BMR and so on explictly stating that mechs can engage aerospace fighters on bombing runs, and that AT state these runs are conducted in the toposphere?

Maybe you want the high altitude bombing runs, where its stated they're done in toposphere, as opposed to the low altitude bombing runs?
So you have few quotes where mech can engage to ranges beyond those described in the game. One them is from a TV series that ranks below game fluff. Well I distinctly remember from 3025 tech manual, where LRMs could reach 840m which to them was a great range. I could be wrong about which tech manual it was, I'll have to lend it from a friend so I can check.
And your point being? The fact is that with AT and Battlespace, we already know mech has greater ranges than that seen in Btech. The additional quotes are simply additional information to back this up, including for ground combat against stationary targets. The only missing piece is the increase of range against stationary targets that Batman is holding out for, the last prediction of the theory, which isn't available simply because I discounted Somerset Strikers the Cartoon. So, stop trying to make it that I'm not backing up my model when I already done all the legwork.
Even if I accept that LRM quote from the TV show, and apply it to all mech weapons, they're still under 2000m for the most part. That being their extreme range. Clan weapons performing a tad better.
Bollocks. AT has an explicit range for up to 6 kilometers. Disprove that range.

I really don't have give a toss about SOD as I'm evaluating mech performance against RL tanks. So mech armor works against mech weapons. Big deal. Oh, here's a little fun bit about that mackie test people so anxiously use. Mackies armor stopped a tank shell that would have penetrated 30cm of steel. Wow!. Not Wow! They obviously dug out some ancient APHE round fired it at the mech and went "OH! The armor held!" How I know this? Modern DU sabots go through over two times the said amount of steel. It also didn't say anything about how bad was the damage to the armor where the shell actually hit.
So with this amount of information, the test is worth absolutely shit.
Even more to the point is, Light anti-tank weapons penetrate 30cm of steel. Which is quite abysmal when comparing to real ATGMs.
Or as I repeatedly stated before, the sensor and communications professor lifted the AP value from tests against armour. Try again.
So I really don't have to go out of my way to prove that mech lasers would have little or no chance against tank armor. Yes said armor ablates and dissipates heat very effectively.

-Gunhead
Really? Why wouldn't it? As a lower limit, a large laser melts half a ton of steel. Why on earth would tanks be suddenly invulernable to basic energy and physics?
Here's a fun little quote from 3026 tech manual:

Pike support vehicle. "The main drawback of the Pike is, ironically, it's main weapon. The three zeusbolt long-range guns do not inflict much damage. Indeed, a hit from a Zeusbolt gun is equivalient to a the hit of a machinegun shot, or one short range missile hit."

Now we get to range.

"The Pike is also equipped with two small short-range missile racks for self- defence. The SRM's can fire accurately at targets at ranges of 120 or less."

This is from game fluff. Oh how I do ph34r their l33t ranges.

-Gunhead
YAWN. As repeatedly stated, as simulated in the high intensity firefight where combat timings is measured in seconds. Give them additional time to aim, as per AT and engagement of aerospace fighters, or even the Battlespace timing and they get increased range. Did you even look at my model before you started attacking it?

Furthermore, ahem, machinegun shot is already a 20mm cannon. You know, the same calibre that the Zeus longshot is firing?
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Post by PainRack »

MKSheppard wrote: Actually, light infantry has the same firepower as tanks; and have so since
1973.
And these tactics work in ambush, and are still vulnerable to the judicious use of tank gunfire to blow them to smithereens, causing them heavy casualties, as seen in Iraq where RPG-7s can damage soft-skinned targets but can be blown to smithereens by bradleys and humvee return fire. Don't be an ass.

Its exactly the same as that for Btech.
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Post by MKSheppard »

PainRack wrote:Don't be an ass.
Using 30 year old RPG-7s against MBTs on the frontal arc is a good way to die.

From Global Security Org.

During the 2003 Operation Iraqi Freedom, US troops encountered an unanticipated, and formidable, weapon in the Iraqi arsenal -- Russian-built Kornet antitank missiles. Iraqi soldiers used the wire-guided missile system against American tanks, but the US military previously did not know they possessed. It emerged as the Iraqis' most effective direct-fire weapon against U.S. armor in the desert of southern Iraq. Iraqi commandos traveling in three-man teams dressed in black civilian robes and riding in Nissan pickup trucks moved against the flanks of columns of armor from the US Army's 3rd Infantry Division and launched broadside attacks from several kilometers away using the system. Those attacks had disabled at least two Abrams tanks and one Bradley armored troop carrier in the opening week of the war.
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Post by Gunhead »

Your 6km range claim is pure shit. If this would be the case, mech to mech combat wouldn't take place at ranges under 1000m. Yet all game fluff state that it does. So mechs can shoot at aerospace fighters when they are making their bombing run. I want an exact quote that those fighters are still in the toposphere when they start shooting. I want altitudes,speeds and weapons used.

Your timing and split second model is crap. Tank to tank engaments are alredy matter of seconds affairs, and they are conducted at ranges of 2500m+. It may have validity in a mech to mech fight. But against RL tanks, they'd never reach those ranges. Mechs miss each other at 500m, I do mean physically miss. This with light speed weapons. This doesn't happen with tanks. When moving on relatively flat terrain, modern MBT will hit you at 2500m. Even under combat for instance in Iraq tanks spent on the average 1.1 rounds for a kill. This while on a regular basis engaging targets at 3000m+.

Your mech can maneuver all it want's, it's still gonna get fragged.

So your laser melts 500kg of mech armor, big fucking deal. You also claim this is backed up by fluff. So I want the see the quote/quotes.
Then prove it melts 500kg of mech armor at ranges tanks fight.
Then prove mech armor is superior to modern day armor.
While at mech armor, provide proof it can withstand modern AT rounds. This being armor that's damaged by 20mm rounds.

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Post by Gunhead »

I checked the compendium, and lo and behold. It contained no fluff evidence to support ranges claimed by Painrack. Aerospace to aerospace get extendend ranges as they use larger hex, but when attacking ground targets they're do so in a battletech hex map. Even this was game mechanics.

-Gunhead
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Post by Nephtys »

Gunhead wrote:I checked the compendium, and lo and behold. It contained no fluff evidence to support ranges claimed by Painrack. Aerospace to aerospace get extendend ranges as they use larger hex, but when attacking ground targets they're do so in a battletech hex map. Even this was game mechanics.

-Gunhead
So somehow, the same missile when pointed down, travels a lot shorter? I don't buy that at all. Why suddenly would the same missile get a greatly reduced range when attacking something easier to hit (anything on the ground, opposed to supersonic fighters)?
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Post by Batman »

Nephtys wrote:sile when pointed down, travels a lot shorter? I don't buy that at all.
Your problem.None of us ever claimed BT made any sense.
Why suddenly would the same missile get a greatly reduced range when attacking something easier to hit (anything on the ground, opposed to supersonic fighters)?
Supersonic? I'd like quotes for that, please, because making attack runs at supersonic speeds is pointless even with modern targeting tech (which is apparently vastly superior to BT stuff).
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Post by Nephtys »

Batman wrote:
Nephtys wrote:sile when pointed down, travels a lot shorter? I don't buy that at all.
Your problem.None of us ever claimed BT made any sense.
Why suddenly would the same missile get a greatly reduced range when attacking something easier to hit (anything on the ground, opposed to supersonic fighters)?
Supersonic? I'd like quotes for that, please, because making attack runs at supersonic speeds is pointless even with modern targeting tech (which is apparently vastly superior to BT stuff).
We're trying to get sense from it. :)

As for supersonic, aerospace fighters are perfectly capable of fighting each other in game terms at high speed. Their speed at high atmosphere is approaching or at times exceeding that, and they seem to do fine slinging LRMs at each other.
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Post by Batman »

Nephtys wrote: As for supersonic, aerospace fighters are perfectly capable of fighting each other in game terms at high speed. Their speed at high atmosphere is approaching or at times exceeding that, and they seem to do fine slinging LRMs at each other.
With the relative speed being?
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Post by Graeme Dice »

Gunhead wrote:Your 6km range claim is pure shit.
Actually, it's backed up by his quotes.
So your laser melts 500kg of mech armor, big fucking deal.
Why don't you learn to read dipshit. He said that it melts 500kg of steel.

Of course, no amount of arguments matter at all to the people who refuse to suspend disbelief when dealing with battletech.
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Post by Nephtys »

Batman wrote:
Nephtys wrote: As for supersonic, aerospace fighters are perfectly capable of fighting each other in game terms at high speed. Their speed at high atmosphere is approaching or at times exceeding that, and they seem to do fine slinging LRMs at each other.
With the relative speed being?
Considering that LRMs can hit even with head on approaches... yeah. I'd say relative speed can definately be supersonic. Not that they get that chance often for a head-on pass. But it happens.
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Post by Thirdfain »

fuck suspending disbelief. These mechs are going to be able to move at speeds in the 40+ kmh range, through even fairly rough terrain (say what you will about real life, but BTech has multiple instances of mechs handling bad terrain very well.) This is World War 1, where such a mobile armored fighting force, even one as poor as battlemechs, will be utterly devastating. Paris falls within a week.
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Post by Gunhead »

Graeme Dice wrote:
Gunhead wrote:Your 6km range claim is pure shit.
Actually, it's backed up by his quotes.
So your laser melts 500kg of mech armor, big fucking deal.
Why don't you learn to read dipshit. He said that it melts 500kg of steel.

Of course, no amount of arguments matter at all to the people who refuse to suspend disbelief when dealing with battletech.
I really don't give a flying fuck about SOD, as this is mechs in the real world.
His whole armor theory is backed up by his say so, and not even the game mechanics from AT and Compendium support the ranges claimed by Painrack. So unless you have some meaningful info to put on the table, sit down and shut the fuck up.

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Post by Graeme Dice »

Gunhead wrote:I really don't give a flying fuck about SOD, as this is mechs in the real world.[/quote

Which still requires you to use mechs as they behave in Battletech, not how they would function in the real world.
His whole armor theory is backed up by his say so, and not even the game mechanics from AT and Compendium support the ranges claimed by Painrack.
Aerofighter weapons can fire at kilometre ranges and hit things. Since aerofighter and mech weapons are identical, I hope your not claiming that mech weapons can't also fire at those ranges.
So unless you have some meaningful info to put on the table, sit down and shut the fuck up.
Nothing to say about your inability to tell the difference between the words "steel" and "mech armour" then?
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Post by Gunhead »

For this debate I've accepted that mechs can move, are mechanically feasible and function as described in BT. Everything about their performance as fighting machines is under doubt. This means firepower, armor and FC. I've also accepted Painracks version of canon, mostly on his say so.

Painrack said his 500kg of melted armor is backed up by fluff, well let's have it then. While on the subject, let's have some proof then that mech armor is some how superior to modern armor. Steel has been used mostly as a bechmark, as armor is usually rated as cm of steel equivalent. But hey, if you can prove mech armor to be superior to steel go right ahead.

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Post by Thirdfain »

Gunhead wrote:For this debate I've accepted that mechs can move, are mechanically feasible and function as described in BT. Everything about their performance as fighting machines is under doubt. This means firepower, armor and FC. I've also accepted Painracks version of canon, mostly on his say so.

Painrack said his 500kg of melted armor is backed up by fluff, well let's have it then. While on the subject, let's have some proof then that mech armor is some how superior to modern armor. Steel has been used mostly as a bechmark, as armor is usually rated as cm of steel equivalent. But hey, if you can prove mech armor to be superior to steel go right ahead.

-Gunhead
Are you even listening? This is at the start of World War 1. There ARE no anti-tank weapons. Mobile warfare like the kind an armored war machine capable of moving at speeds of dozens of kilometers per hour can wage is simply not even on the minds of any generals. It takes weeks to move formations of troops. Hell, communication is largely by wire, for chrissakes! The radios alone make the mechs enough to give Germany a huge advantage.

The machines break through the French lines and march to Paris. 500 meter weapons ranges (as absolutely ridiculous as that is) are more than enough.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Graeme Dice wrote:Of course, no amount of arguments matter at all to the people who refuse to suspend disbelief when dealing with battletech.
We know that 20mm calibre guns and .50 cal machineguns damage BTech; and lots of weapons equal to or more powerful were produced during WW1, such as the Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, a steel cored rifle
bullet designed to be fired from a standard Mauser infantry rifle. It was
the German answer to the tank in World War I.

At the time, British tanks sported 8 mm of face hardened armour all round, and the "K" bullet could penetrate a maximum of 12-13 mm at
0 to 100 metres (0 Degrees inclination). This gave the "K" bullet a 33%
chance of penetration with a direct hit on an oncoming tank. As every
soldier in a front line position was issued 10 rounds of "K" bullets, there
would be a large number of these armour piercing projectiles hitting the
target. As a result, "K" bullets accounted for a large number of tank crew
casulties, and vehicle losses in the early days of tank warfare.

What this means is that your Infantry Rifle now has nearly the firepower
of a .50 BMG round up close (from 1939-1946, the average .50 BMG
round had a penetration of 19mm at 500m)

Somehow, I don't think the Mech pilots are going to stop and shoot
infantry, who they see as underneath their skills, and die as a result.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Thirdfain wrote:This is at the start of World War 1. There ARE no anti-tank weapons.
Yes there are. Field Artillery Pieces. Huge numbers of tanks got knocked out by them.
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Post by Thirdfain »

... era tanks, which moved at a slow crawl at best, and broke down constantly- not battlemechs which move at up to a 100+ kilometers an hour.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Thirdfain wrote:... era tanks, which moved at a slow crawl at best, and broke down constantly- not battlemechs which move at up to a 100+ kilometers an hour.
And Battlemechs are much much bigger targets than tanks, which simplifies
targeting a lot.
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Post by Nephtys »

MKSheppard wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:... era tanks, which moved at a slow crawl at best, and broke down constantly- not battlemechs which move at up to a 100+ kilometers an hour.
And Battlemechs are much much bigger targets than tanks, which simplifies
targeting a lot.
Battlemechs are also surprisingly agile, which does not do a thing against portable weapons, but wheeling around towed artillery? Good luck. Most mediums can accellerate zero to 80 KPH in less than 10 seconds. Many mechs can make jump-jet leaps over at least 150 meters. All mech-based weapons (save the AC2 realy) utterly decimate infantry with surprising accuracy on the movie at most ranges.

What happens when said mech just runs past and hops over their lines? Ooops. Screwed. Good luck taking down a seventy ton monster with a biplane.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Nephtys wrote:Battlemechs are also surprisingly agile, which does not do a thing against portable weapons, but wheeling around towed artillery? Good luck.
Agility might work against a few guns, but against an entire quick-firer
battery?
All mech-based weapons (save the AC2 realy) utterly decimate infantry with surprising accuracy on the movie at most ranges.
Yet can't hit other mechs easily at said ranges....strange, despite
the mechs being much larger targets than infantry.
What happens when said mech just runs past and hops over their lines? Ooops. Screwed. Good luck taking down a seventy ton monster with a biplane.
In the early part of WWI, the battles were very fluid with lots of manuever; they'll be able to deal with the Mech by reorienting forces.

From the Trench Warfare part of WWI, it's not just one trench line that
you got to deal with; if it was that easy, the French would have broken
through multiple times.
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Post by Gunhead »

Kindly point me where I said mechs would be outmatched by WWI tech.

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