The Vong invade during TPM

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-06-12 03:47pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:The fact that 200 obselete warships tipped the balance of power so massively in favor of the Empire is sad in itself. And he only had a few ISDs and VSDs, most Imp starships were floating around Byss while Palpatine watched Thrawn from afar.

Yeah because Thrawn was stupid enough to leave all the Imperial worlds undefended while he went on his crusade against the NR.

Maybe you need to re-read TTT, at the start of it Han Solo specifically says that the NR and Imps are evenly matched. 200 heavy frigates are capable of making a big difference. In taking them he had 200 ships the rebels couldn't match, also because of the cloning tanks he had these 200 Dreadnaughts where crewed by the best and brightest he had in the Fleet.

Asdeed · Post by **Asdeed** » 2005-06-12 03:54pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Swamping them with enormous numbers of droids could only work for a little while. THe TF couldn't defeat the Vong for more than teo or three engagements. They only have a few thousand ships, the Vong have tens of thousands. And I believe that Nute Gunray's capture wouldn't phase the TF when they fight the Vong.

The TF don't need to hold the Vong very long, just slow them down until the rest of the Galaxy takes the hint and joins in. And errr.... I specifically mentioned the Nute Gunray thing in reference to TPM to point out they had plenty of droids. If he's dumb enough to get close enough to the Vong to be captured (which he probably is, he's a dumbass), then yup, I totally agree the TF will write him off and move on.

And the Vong had tens of thousands of ships? When the heck did THAT happen???? (gave up on NJO pretty early)

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-12 03:57pm

And the Vong had tens of thousands of ships? When the heck did THAT happen???? (gave up on NJO pretty early)

The Vong moved their entire civilization (or pretty close) to the Star Wars galaxy. The first few books only show the picket force. Vong worldships and new fleets arrive from beyond the outer rim for years after the start of the war.

Asdeed · Post by **Asdeed** » 2005-06-12 04:00pm

Ah, so the TF would only be facing the picket force initially then, much like the NR did. But again, with a much larger force than the NR had available.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-12 05:11pm

No, the TF would probably have the roughly the same firepower (but more ships) that the NR had, in space. On the ground, the TF droid armies would be ten times as hard for the Vong to defeat as the NR troops, especially given that the Jedi would be helping the TF. Thousands of Jedi. And the fact that the TF actually used armored units. The NR used whatever it had left from the Imperial Garrisons.

gave up on NJO pretty early

Lucky bastard

Trooper TK12746 wrote:
The fact that 200 obselete warships tipped the balance of power so massively in favor of the Empire is sad in itself. And he only had a few ISDs and VSDs, most Imp starships were floating around Byss while Palpatine watched Thrawn from afar.

Yeah because Thrawn was stupid enough to leave all the Imperial worlds undefended while he went on his crusade against the NR. Rolling Eyes

Maybe you need to re-read TTT, at the start of it Han Solo specifically says that the NR and Imps are evenly matched. 200 heavy frigates are capable of making a big difference. In taking them he had 200 ships the rebels couldn't match, also because of the cloning tanks he had these 200 Dreadnaughts where crewed by the best and brightest he had in the Fleet.

dreadnaughts are terrible ships, they were heavy frigates in name only. A couple of Corvettes could equal or supass them in firepower. ANd they were obselete. And the sad thing is that they were evenly matched. That was my initial point, with 1/4 of the galaxy (and the most of those being useless backwater planets instead of core worlds, they had one good shipyard), th Empire could actually compete with the NR's 3/4 of the galaxy. And this is after the Empire has suffered a long string of defeats.
And most of the IMperial fleet was present at the battle of Bilbringi, so yeah, he gambled that a massive victory at Bilbringi would make the NR incapable of striking at his planets. And Bilbringi was his only decent shipyard anyway, it was the one he needed to protect.

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2005-06-12 05:34pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote: dreadnaughts are terrible ships, they were heavy frigates in name only. A couple of Corvettes could equal or supass them in firepower.

Is this backed up by anything in the EU? A Dreadnaught is four times as long as a Corellian Corvette, so from a very simplistic volume comparison it should have roughly 64 times the energy output (which helps with both firepower and shielding). They would have to be VERY poorly constructed for something that much smaller than them to be half as powerful.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-06-12 06:25pm

What about the Vong versus the AotC Republic and the GAR?

applejack · Post by **applejack** » 2005-06-12 09:22pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:TF ships are pretty decent, and the Acclamator caught the TF offguard, it took specialized warships to beat the TF stuff later on.

To expand on this point, Ender calc'd TF Battlships' HTLs to be at 1 TT per shot. Not sure how they'll be able to overcome Vong ship defenses though... But that's still a lot of firewpower from converted freighters.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-06-13 04:32am

Palpatine runs with this heaven-sent opportunity. An actual alien menace will bring the Republic's citizenry to heel far more quickly and effectively than a staged civil war. He even gains political capital for "negotiating" with the Separatists to rally to the aid of the galaxy's common civilisation against the Things and is now able to put Republic funding and industrial resources behind the secret projects, such as the Death Star, as well as the clone and droid armies. The Jedi are sent in as cannon-fodder against the Vong while Palpatine's military gets up to full strength. And when the Jedi are depleted, Palpatine unleashes his new war machine against the Yuzhan Vong at the moment he declares the formation of the Empire and democracy is crushed under the boots of the forces setting out to exterminate the Vong, while Palpatine is hailed as the Saviour of the Galaxy.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-13 06:24am

Patrick Degan wrote:Palpatine runs with this heaven-sent opportunity. An actual alien menace will bring the Republic's citizenry to heel far more quickly and effectively than a staged civil war. He even gains political capital for "negotiating" with the Separatists to rally to the aid of the galaxy's common civilisation against the Things and is now able to put Republic funding and industrial resources behind the secret projects, such as the Death Star, as well as the clone and droid armies. The Jedi are sent in as cannon-fodder against the Vong while Palpatine's military gets up to full strength. And when the Jedi are depleted, Palpatine unleashes his new war machine against the Yuzhan Vong at the moment he declares the formation of the Empire and democracy is crushed under the boots of the forces setting out to exterminate the Vong, while Palpatine is hailed as the Saviour of the Galaxy.

Pretty much, after all the OR senators were even more corrupt than the NR one's, they simply stole money instead of the ships of the bloody defensive fleet.

Would Zonama zekot interfere if it wasnt attacked by the vong?
(Probably not unless Yoda guessed a connection)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-13 06:45am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:dreadnaughts are terrible ships, they were heavy frigates in name only. A couple of Corvettes could equal or supass them in firepower.

A Rebel Upgraded Dreadnaught was in the estimation of Kyle Katarn, a match for a Victory Star Destroyer. Dreadnaughts can be easily refitted with modern tech. The Old Republic kept them updated for centuries remember. Very vesitile ships.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-13 06:57am

NecronLord wrote:
Trooper TK12746 wrote:dreadnaughts are terrible ships, they were heavy frigates in name only. A couple of Corvettes could equal or supass them in firepower.
A Rebel Upgraded Dreadnaught was in the estimation of Kyle Katarn, a match for a Victory Star Destroyer. Dreadnaughts can be easily refitted with modern tech. The Old Republic kept them updated for centuries remember. Very vesitile ships.

Their main problem was their inneficiency, lack of firepower density, clumsiness & power generation, retrofitting with enough crewman could make it more than a match than a victory, although in the long run a victory would be much more ecconomic.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-06-13 07:40am

the .303 bookworm wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Trooper TK12746 wrote:dreadnaughts are terrible ships, they were heavy frigates in name only. A couple of Corvettes could equal or supass them in firepower.
A Rebel Upgraded Dreadnaught was in the estimation of Kyle Katarn, a match for a Victory Star Destroyer. Dreadnaughts can be easily refitted with modern tech. The Old Republic kept them updated for centuries remember. Very vesitile ships.
Their main problem was their inneficiency, lack of firepower density, clumsiness & power generation, retrofitting with enough crewman could make it more than a match than a victory, although in the long run a victory would be much more ecconomic.

Yet 3 Dreadnaughts caused one of Thrawns ISD's a shit load of trouble at the Katana Battle, 6 where on the verge of knocking out the Judicator just using Ion canons.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-13 08:03am

A Republic upgraded dreadnaught is called an assault frigate. These are considered very powerful warships and are vastly superior to regular dreadnaughts. And none of these dreadnaughts had been updated. And Assault Frigates are nothing like regular dreadnaughts in firepower, speed, structure, crew requirments (much less), or shielding. They only bear a superficial resemblence. But making an assault frigate takes a lot of time and money, so the rebels had very few of them during Thrawn's era. Garm's dreadnaughts had been refitted and upgraded, Thrawn's had not. I don't think dreadnaughts were around for centuries. I thought they had been developed for the Republic around the same time as the TPM. And regardless, Thrawn's ships were not upgraded, so it makes little difference. Dreadnaughts were horrible vessels, their only use was that the NR couldn't come up with the ships to counter them (which would be maybe 10 Mon Cals). Which is sad in itself considering they controlled 3/4 of the galaxy.

Would Zonama zekot interfere if it wasnt attacked by the vong?
(Probably not unless Yoda guessed a connection)

Zenoma Sekot was still in contact with the galaxy at this point. Sekot's ships could be purchased on the open market. Someone would put 2 and 2 together and realize that Zenoma Sekot and the Vong both use living ships, maybe there is a connection.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-13 08:11am

Lord Pounder wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote:
NecronLord wrote: A Rebel Upgraded Dreadnaught was in the estimation of Kyle Katarn, a match for a Victory Star Destroyer. Dreadnaughts can be easily refitted with modern tech. The Old Republic kept them updated for centuries remember. Very vesitile ships.
Their main problem was their inneficiency, lack of firepower density, clumsiness & power generation, retrofitting with enough crewman could make it more than a match than a victory, although in the long run a victory would be much more ecconomic.

If properly equipped they were dangerous, they were simply clumsy and didnt have the level of density or maneuverability that SD's had.
In suuficient non run & gun numbers they could definetely give a VSD a beating, they simply werent as efficient or well designed.

Yet 3 Dreadnaughts caused one of Thrawns ISD's a shit load of trouble at the Katana Battle, 6 where on the verge of knocking out the Judicator just using Ion canons.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-13 06:13pm

Just some food for thought but I recall in the ANH Novel (Prologue)that the Republic was considered to be immune to outside invaders, and that it only could have rotted from within. (Not to violate the No Limits Fallacy)

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-13 09:57pm

Old Republic, I assume.

Srynerson · Post by **Srynerson** » 2005-06-13 10:56pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:The use of droid armies would infuriate the Vong beyond belief. They would break cover and forget all tactics trying to kill those things in any way possible. Remember in Rebel Dream when the YVH droids attacked the Vong? Here is a excerpt: "...Yuuzhan Vong warriors were popping up all over the field, emerging from the jungle at a dead run, heading towards them, lunging like maddened animals towardsd the droids that insulted them with words and mere presence."

Hmm, would locking a Vong warrior in a room with a couple dozen battledroids continuously saying, "Roger, roger!" qualify as a violation of the Star Wars-equivalent of the Geneva Convention?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-06-14 04:49am

Lord Pounder wrote:
Trooper TK12746 wrote:The fact that 200 obselete warships tipped the balance of power so massively in favor of the Empire is sad in itself. And he only had a few ISDs and VSDs, most Imp starships were floating around Byss while Palpatine watched Thrawn from afar.
Yeah because Thrawn was stupid enough to leave all the Imperial worlds undefended while he went on his crusade against the NR.

Maybe you need to re-read TTT, at the start of it Han Solo specifically says that the NR and Imps are evenly matched. 200 heavy frigates are capable of making a big difference. In taking them he had 200 ships the rebels couldn't match, also because of the cloning tanks he had these 200 Dreadnaughts where crewed by the best and brightest he had in the Fleet.

Not to mention the NR had to control the entire galaxy, The Empire was then a reletivly tiny area, and Thrawn could concertrate his forces where needed, unlike the NR.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-14 07:56am

Not to mention the NR had to control the entire galaxy, The Empire was then a reletivly tiny area, and Thrawn could concertrate his forces where needed, unlike the NR.

Although the "glorious" Republic of the free peoples of the galaxy doesn't need to worry about controlling territory. Everybody wants to a part of it anyway. According to the EU, the 1000 systems in the Remnant were the only ones that actually wanted to be Imperial.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-14 07:58am

mm, would locking a Vong warrior in a room with a couple dozen battledroids continuously saying, "Roger, roger!" qualify as a violation of the Star Wars-equivalent of the Geneva Convention?

No such thing. And even if there was, given that its the Vong, noone would care. And is the VOng armed? If he is, the battle droids are toast. If not, they still have a high chance of dismemberment.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-14 10:00am

Ace Pace wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Trooper TK12746 wrote:The fact that 200 obselete warships tipped the balance of power so massively in favor of the Empire is sad in itself. And he only had a few ISDs and VSDs, most Imp starships were floating around Byss while Palpatine watched Thrawn from afar.
Yeah because Thrawn was stupid enough to leave all the Imperial worlds undefended while he went on his crusade against the NR.

Maybe you need to re-read TTT, at the start of it Han Solo specifically says that the NR and Imps are evenly matched. 200 heavy frigates are capable of making a big difference. In taking them he had 200 ships the rebels couldn't match, also because of the cloning tanks he had these 200 Dreadnaughts where crewed by the best and brightest he had in the Fleet.
Not to mention the NR had to control the entire galaxy, The Empire was then a reletivly tiny area, and Thrawn could concertrate his forces where needed, unlike the NR.

Actually the NR controlled roughly the same amount of territory

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-06-14 10:32am

BS, its referanced IIRC in Specter of the Past or Vision of the future that while Thrawn made ALOT of damage, it was very localized.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-14 03:20pm

Actually the NR controlled roughly the same amount of territory

Not true. Thrawn controlled roughly 1/4 of the old Empire (Spector of the Past) while the Republic controlled at least double that. Upper limit for Republic control is 3/4 of the old Empire (which encompassed most of the galaxy), lower limit for Republic control, 1/2 of the old Empire. THe Empire was just more militiristic and started out with a bigger fleet, that is why their militaries were evenly matched in TTT.

BS, its referanced IIRC in Specter of the Past or Vision of the future that while Thrawn made ALOT of damage, it was very localized.

THey call a direct strike at Coruscant localized? He also stuck at Myrsst and several agricultural planets in the books alone. It is fairly safe to assume that he struck several other planets that were not mentioned.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-06-15 12:38am

Yes, he struck at planets, but he was dependent on everyone fearing him, because notice he never really took over any planets, only took their surrenders.

Courscant was really counted? He came in and dropped astroids, ruining some ships in the process.

The real danger of the clones made by Thrawn(as I see it) was freeing up Imperial troops for ground occupation, which could lead him into having the logistics to control more planets.