Battletech in World War I

[MKSheppard]

Since BMR and compendium both state that the AMS is a machine gun with sensors attached, we can derivive a cyclic rate for the MG. A MG ammo is 200 shots per ton, that would be 24*200=4800 rounds per ton.

*pats Pain Rack on the Head*

You forget that in BTech, Ammo weight also INCLUDES the ammo feed system and ammo stowage.

[FOG3]

1. Its not a THEORY. Its an observed FACT. Physical damage as well as weapons calibre demonstrate this very well. The problem was that it doesn't make sense with physics. Not to mention, the whole range vs damage for autocannons....... and for the nature of ablative protection and "sloughing" tactics......... and for armour damage in general due to the thin nature of armour protection........... I think I have to go ask Slacker and LC what the other problems with reality were.

Ever consider that in their mucking around the reason it's reliant on mass is just because they suck? That the idea intensity is good was lost some time ago? Thus they have junk for armor, junk for targetting and have went to trying to bludgeon it off? Thus bigger slow shells will cause more of the junk armor to crater/slough off giving a better chance of hitting that area again with their pathetic FC. Makes perfect sense to me, it just requires them to be idiots/ceased to have a clue. Use of a CPB ie the PPC as a major armament only goes along with this.

It doesn't mean a not backwards tech designed AP round won't punch clean through them. Where does it say everyone else who they cross over to has to share in their stupidity?

[Steve]

The Mechs will be useful mostly in terms of mobility on the strategic level. When they move at speeds above 40km/hr, and infantry hit 64km/day, it's simply a matter of walking for two hours by Mech and laughing as the opposition tries to redeploy and dig in over two days to match you.

*pats Martin on the head*

It's so lovely when I see someone trying to talk smack when they don't know
what it IS they're talking smack about. Newsflash; Patton's 3rd Army was full
of M4 Shermans that moved at 40~ km/hour, yet 3rd Army only advanced
at a rate of 30~ miles a day.

Yeah, and Patton's army had to deal with a force capable of the same speed.

It probably is a simple case of just charging through the trench lines blasting everything you see with energy weapons when you're dealing with WWI-era tactics and infantry weapons. Then you get to wreak havoc upon the rear areas. forestalling the counterattacks that made WWI's Western Front into the bloody stalemate it was and allowing breakthrough.

You'd probably get the same thing if you gave the WWI Germans a couple battalions of Leopards 2A6s or M1A2 Abrams.

[MKSheppard]

That's because Infantry has no place in Battletech except in urban combat/ambush roles. Even then, an anti-armor company has almost no chance of even taking out the lightest of mechs. Don't whine to me about how much you hate elementals if you can't support your own arguments properly.

This is the same game system that requires a 60 ton tank to have a 23 ton engine to move it at M1 Abrams speeds; meanwhile the
Russian GTD-1250 Gas Turbine Engine as used on the T-80 puts out 1,250 hp on 1,050 kg of weight. It's a game system slavishly
slanted towards Mechs to make them viable on the battlefield.

Said tanks also moved at what... six-eight miles per hour? Had teeny weeny sponson guns? Were having issues at times before clearing trenches? Had less than 20mm of steel plate armor? Note that mechs move at at least five times their rate. Because a peice of crap tank gets killed by artillery, doesn't mean a battlemech can. Stop worshipping this 'Quickfire artillery'.

Battletech mech armor IS crap; look at the Fall Damage Calculations; they're armorwise equivalent to World War I tanks, and hence in
danger from field artillery of the period.

Again, Mech-Scale MG is closer to a vehicle cannon.

Actually, no, they're named "Heavy Machine Guns", which puts them within the 12.7mm to 14.5mm range.

So you're expecting the entire WW1 war machine to ride in taxi, or walk 40 miles a day to stop a clan invasion? Let's see. The average battlemech covers that distance in less than an hour. Even an assault mech probably could. Know what crowding your troops in busses and trucks causes? That's right. A lot of troops and tangled, burning metal.

*pats Nephtys on the head*

I recently watched a show, where US Marine M1A2 Abrams tanks, capable of 55 km/hour, trundled down the road to Baghdad in 2003
at a mere 24 km/h, and how it took them all day to move from their starting phase line to their ending phase line for the day, due to constant
fighting. Only an imbecile takes top speeds of vehicles and then assumes those speeds apply to long distance marches, of which the
Mechs would face; I wonder how those "muscle fibers" stand up to hour after hour after hour of relentless pounding and walking?

These 30-meter tall things will be hit by small arms. Sure. Not like that's really going to do much good. Artillery, again. Think of how hard it is to hit something moving and jinking with a dumbfire rocket.

It's kind of easy to hit something the size of a house, with a shell moving at 500+ M/sec, which is the muzzle velocity of the mle
1897 French 75mm Howitzer.

So really, Shep. You're full fo it.

The Cry of the BTecher. Next time quote properly.

[Steve]

You'd probably get the same thing if you gave the WWI Germans a couple battalions of Leopards 2A6s or M1A2 Abrams.

A caveat I forgot to add: give them fusion engines as in BTech as well to simulate the removal of dependence on fuel.

[MKSheppard]

Nothing to say about your inability to tell the difference between the words "steel" and "mech armour" then?

In the revised 3025 tech readout, under the entry for the CRB-20 Crab, middle colum, last paragraph, 1st sentance reads :

"Most pilots consider the Crab's armor protection acceptable, though the replacement of it's composite armor with the homogenous steel now used..."

[Gunhead]

QUIET SHEP! Don't give them steel armor! They might come up with a mech that isn't harmed by 20mm autocannons.



-Gunhead

[MKSheppard]

Actually, no. Btech solution to the infantry problem was to deploy huge ass weapons that takes out obscene numbers of infantry in one shot, thus preventing their deployment in the open field. Let's see, what would happen if say the MechHunter autocannon, with its 150mm calibre squeezes off ten shots in less than 1 second at an infantry caught out in the open? Much less the Clan Ultra AC/20 deployed on some mechs, which is 200mm in calibre and squeezes off at least 20 shots in dual mode?

Actually, in BTech, weights for ammo include the feed mechanism for the
weapon. And let us look at the claimed statistics; 150mm cannons firing
10 shots in 1 second? That would only be achievable on the weight class
of mecha if they were low velocity cannons, because the M1A2 Abrams
weighs 70 tons, yet it rocks back when it fires it's 120mm main gun; and
we don't see any Mechs falling on their backs when they fire their 150mm
ACs; so ergo, it must be a low velocity weapon; which also explains their
piss poor range and accuracy.

[MKSheppard]

QUIET SHEP! Don't give them steel armor! They might come up with a mech that isn't harmed by 20mm autocannons.

It gets better; they abandoned ceramics for plain homogenous steel, something the rest of the world has abandoned for military vehicles other
than light scout vehicles.

[MKSheppard]

You're quite a bit off there.

Look at their cruising speeds; quite a bit lower too.

[Frank Hipper]

I fail to see the reasoning behind pitting WWI tanks up against these things.

Armor in WWI was designed, intended, and used nearly exclusively as breakthrough weapons for use against fortified infantry, and not tank vs tank. The one instance of tank on tank engagement I'm aware of during the war happened almost as an accident.

Any sane WWI commander, on learning that giant walking machines with guns were attacking his trenches would order a tactical retreat, and order a mass artillery barrage.
After all, this was the time of unprecedented supremecy of artillery (despite it achieveing little against earthwork fortifications, which are a completely different story), and MOST especially a time of concentraion of pieces of a variety that has never been equaled. Masonry constructed towns virtually disappeared under these barrages...
With ranges in the tens of kilometers, shells weighing everything from 1 kilo to nearly a thousand kilos, and barrels numbering in the hundreds that can concentrate fire via indirect spotting, I cannot see what any mechanised attempt could hope to achieve.

Another thing, I've seen some extremely high speeds claimed for these machines; how do they function in swampy areas including spots of meter deep mud, and in water filled craters tens of meters in diameter?
If walking animals (humans and horses) bogged down in those kinds of conditions, what advantages do walking machines bring to deal with them?

[Thirdfain]

Another thing, I've seen some extremely high speeds claimed for these machines; how do they function in swampy areas including spots of meter deep mud, and in water filled craters tens of meters in diameter?

Mechanics aside, in the books mechs have always had excellent all-terrain capability.

And once again, everyone should read the OP. The Imperial Germans have these things at the very start of the war. Bear in mind that the collapse of the Western Front into trench warfare did not occur immediately. These mechs aren't running through shell-torn noman's land, but rather through a barely-touched French countryside.

[Thirdfain]

(ghetto edit)

And what of the usage of Battlemechs for co-ordination? These things have long-distance wireless communications. That alone is enough to make them incredibly useful to the Germans. They'd be able to co-ordinate attacks and so forth far more effectively without having to wait for cable to be laid back to the general. The mechs wouldn't have to fire a shot to give the Germans a massive advantage.

[Nephtys]

The heaviest, nastiest clan asasult mechs can pull 64 km/s. That's the slowest type they have. Now. You're somehow thinking that anyone on foot can hold a candle to that in terms of mobility? Even if everyone had racecars, a car needs to follow a road. A mech makes it's own road through a forest. If we want to include dropship pickup and takeoff, mechs are intercontinental, but I don't remember if this situation allowed dropships.

No dropships, just Mecha to Germany.

Let's see (All Clan):
Kraken:54kph max
Kodiak: 65kph max
Behemoth: 54kph max
Iron Cheetah:64.8 kph
Daishi: 54 kph
Annihilator:32 kph (Wolf Dragoon's exclusive, but who equips the Dragoons? That's right the Clans)

You're quite a bit off there.

Annhiliator doesn't really count, it's an IS-tech mech. Half of those you provided are also second line mechs, save the Daishi, and IIRC Iron Cheetah. For Mechs, cruising speed is just 'walking' speed. They're fully capable of maintaining max speed for long, long periods of time.

Nephtys wrote:
That's because Infantry has no place in Battletech except in urban combat/ambush roles. Even then, an anti-armor company has almost no chance of even taking out the lightest of mechs. Don't whine to me about how much you hate elementals if you can't support your own arguments properly.

This is the same game system that requires a 60 ton tank to have a 23 ton engine to move it at M1 Abrams speeds; meanwhile the
Russian GTD-1250 Gas Turbine Engine as used on the T-80 puts out 1,250 hp on 1,050 kg of weight. It's a game system slavishly
slanted towards Mechs to make them viable on the battlefield.

Fusion engine. That generates enough power to fire energy weapons. That does not require fuel and minimal maintenance. With numbers based on game mechanics so that people can actually calculate and balance these things. Keep trying to move the goalposts, Shep.

Nephtys wrote:
Said tanks also moved at what... six-eight miles per hour? Had teeny weeny sponson guns? Were having issues at times before clearing trenches? Had less than 20mm of steel plate armor? Note that mechs move at at least five times their rate. Because a peice of crap tank gets killed by artillery, doesn't mean a battlemech can. Stop worshipping this 'Quickfire artillery'.

Battletech mech armor IS crap; look at the Fall Damage Calculations; they're armorwise equivalent to World War I tanks, and hence in
danger from field artillery of the period.

So wait, a mech.. a humanoid walking machine, falling thirty feet does damage? I'm shocked. Could it be that.. GASP. Falling and taking damage is not the same thing as being shot and taken damage? In the same way that if you get punched six times, you may be okay because you're wearing sports pads... but a good fall may dislocate a shoulder?

Nephtys wrote:
Again, Mech-Scale MG is closer to a vehicle cannon.

Actually, no, they're named "Heavy Machine Guns", which puts them within the 12.7mm to 14.5mm range.

Name means nothing. So the fact that this is called an 'ER Small Laser', that must mean it's smaller than this pen-laser I have, right? Huh.

Nephtys wrote:
So you're expecting the entire WW1 war machine to ride in taxi, or walk 40 miles a day to stop a clan invasion? Let's see. The average battlemech covers that distance in less than an hour. Even an assault mech probably could. Know what crowding your troops in busses and trucks causes? That's right. A lot of troops and tangled, burning metal.


*pats Nephtys on the head*

I recently watched a show, where US Marine M1A2 Abrams tanks, capable of 55 km/hour, trundled down the road to Baghdad in 2003
at a mere 24 km/h, and how it took them all day to move from their starting phase line to their ending phase line for the day, due to constant
fighting. Only an imbecile takes top speeds of vehicles and then assumes those speeds apply to long distance marches, of which the
Mechs would face; I wonder how those "muscle fibers" stand up to hour after hour after hour of relentless pounding and walking?

Nice appeal to authority. 'I recently watche a show...', Also nice try avoiding the fact that your praised mobiltiy means absolutely nothing in the terms we're talking about, where the fastest WW1 troops can go in a day is an average mech's hour. Concession accepted.

Battlemechs ignore terrain and fight running battles all the time against their opponents. Your ignorace is highlighted by the utter transparencies of your claims. Mech Myomer is durable enough to survive constant use over hundreds of years, and mechanical failure is just plain rare with them, save for overstressing experimental TSM, which won't be an issue, given Clan mechs don't use TSM. Please, stop throwing magic numbers and thinking they'll apply. I've provided numbers. You haven't, bringing up magic 'quickfire artillery' that 'seems' to be good enough. Same way that Warp Speed 'seems' to be faster than hyperspace, huh?

Nephtys wrote:
These 30-meter tall things will be hit by small arms. Sure. Not like that's really going to do much good. Artillery, again. Think of how hard it is to hit something moving and jinking with a dumbfire rocket.

It's kind of easy to hit something the size of a house, with a shell moving at 500+ M/sec, which is the muzzle velocity of the mle
1897 French 75mm Howitzer.

Read my argument. Unless this is some kind of heatseeking guided artillery shell, you're just not going to be able to wheel about and aim it at a dodging and maneuvering and possibly jumping mech, and a pilot with extreme situational awareness. Especially while being decimated. You've completely ignored my point where a typical clan mech can wipe out at least a dozen gun emplacements per 10 seconds with energy weapons alone.

Quote:
So really, Shep. You're full fo it.
The Cry of the BTecher. Next time quote properly.

Way to attack the person, and not the issue.

In the revised 3025 tech readout, under the entry for the CRB-20 Crab, middle colum, last paragraph, 1st sentance reads :

"Most pilots consider the Crab's armor protection acceptable, though the replacement of it's composite armor with the homogenous steel now used..."

Which would not explain at all how a Mackie takes a 105-120mm shell at close range in the leg without a scratch. BT of course mentions 'hardened radiation-treated technobabble' steel...

Actually, in BTech, weights for ammo include the feed mechanism for the
weapon. And let us look at the claimed statistics; 150mm cannons firing
10 shots in 1 second? That would only be achievable on the weight class
of mecha if they were low velocity cannons, because the M1A2 Abrams
weighs 70 tons, yet it rocks back when it fires it's 120mm main gun; and
we don't see any Mechs falling on their backs when they fire their 150mm
ACs; so ergo, it must be a low velocity weapon; which also explains their
piss poor range and accuracy.

Yet, Aerospace Fighters can easilly fire these weapons, such as the AC10/20 at ranges that seem similar to modern tank ranges.

Another thing, I've seen some extremely high speeds claimed for these machines; how do they function in swampy areas including spots of meter deep mud, and in water filled craters tens of meters in diameter?
If walking animals (humans and horses) bogged down in those kinds of conditions, what advantages do walking machines bring to deal with them?

Said walking machines are (corrected) 15m tall, and have demonstrated ability to travel through marshy and muddy conditions before. At worst, they'll be slowed slightly or use jump jets to clear over. Also, as to your claim that a 'massive arty barrage' will save the day and destroy 'any mechanised attempt', I suppose you're suggesting WW1 artillery could stop any kind of modern tank attack too? Huh. I wonder where progress went. Last I figured, shell fragments didn't do too well against armor plate, especially when fired broadly to cover an area.

[Gunhead]

I'd commit the mechs as the german assault stalls, as they near Paris. At this point the french army could very well be broken by a decisive attack employing the mechs and infantry, and enable the germans to take Paris.

The germans should give the mechs a dedicated infantry force, that are the main follow up force for the mechs. Before they are committed in the final push to Paris, they'd be used in limited actions against enemy strongpoints, so the german infantry gets used to the mechs rumbling about.

-Gunhead

[Sea Skimmer]

Mechanics aside, in the books mechs have always had excellent all-terrain capability.

Which isn't going to help if any mecha are left over once trench warfare sets in. No armored vehicle has ever matched the broken terrain capabilities of the British WW1 heavy tanks, and yet the Germans routinely built, by hand, obstacles and trenches they couldn't surmount. Then we have the whole mud, not even Russia can match the mud on some WW1 battlefields, and moon scape thing.

And once again, everyone should read the OP. The Imperial Germans have these things at the very start of the war. Bear in mind that the collapse of the Western Front into trench warfare did not occur immediately. These mechs aren't running through shell-torn noman's land, but rather through a barely-touched French countryside.

Which means that the mecha can advance no faster then the walking pace of a horse pulling a wagon, because that's how the logistics of the German army work. They will advance along at that pace doing nothing, then reach Marne river where 1,000,000 French troops are waiting. Since this is the very beginning of the war, no one will be suffering from a shell shortage and the French will be quite free to bombard the mecha into oblivion when the Germans inevitably commit them to a frontal attack. The First Battle of the Marne was so bloody I doubt the French will even notice any extra losses they might take.

[consequences]

Nephtys wrote:
That's because Infantry has no place in Battletech except in urban combat/ambush roles. Even then, an anti-armor company has almost no chance of even taking out the lightest of mechs. Don't whine to me about how much you hate elementals if you can't support your own arguments properly.

This is the same game system that requires a 60 ton tank to have a 23 ton engine to move it at M1 Abrams speeds; meanwhile the
Russian GTD-1250 Gas Turbine Engine as used on the T-80 puts out 1,250 hp on 1,050 kg of weight. It's a game system slavishly
slanted towards Mechs to make them viable on the battlefield.

Fusion engine. That generates enough power to fire energy weapons. That does not require fuel and minimal maintenance. With numbers based on game mechanics so that people can actually calculate and balance these things. Keep trying to move the goalposts, Shep.

Wrong, the twenty-three ton engine is the Internal Combustion Engine of that rating, which generates no energy for firing energy weapons at all without additional power amplification equipment. Keep arguing things you are unfamiliar with, son.

[MKSheppard]

Nice appeal to authority. 'I recently watche a show...', Also nice try avoiding the fact that your praised mobiltiy means absolutely nothing in the terms we're talking about, where the fastest WW1 troops can go in a day is an average mech's hour. Concession accepted.

*gets out cluestick and beats Nephyts upside the head*

Y'know, we had tanks capable of doing 55 KM/H in Iraq, yet our daily
advance was about 55 kilometers a day.

"We are more than 220 miles (355 kilometers) into Iraqi territory and have done it in over six days in spite of difficult weather," said Major General Stanley McChrystal Joint Staff vice-director of operations.

[Nephtys]

Nice appeal to authority. 'I recently watche a show...', Also nice try avoiding the fact that your praised mobiltiy means absolutely nothing in the terms we're talking about, where the fastest WW1 troops can go in a day is an average mech's hour. Concession accepted.

*gets out cluestick and beats Nephyts upside the head*

Y'know, we had tanks capable of doing 55 KM/H in Iraq, yet our daily
advance was about 55 kilometers a day.

"We are more than 220 miles (355 kilometers) into Iraqi territory and have done it in over six days in spite of difficult weather," said Major General Stanley McChrystal Joint Staff vice-director of operations.

This scenario is also different. It's WW1, and there's no weapon capable of taking one out easilly available, in Battletech or RL in this case. Why would they need to slow down if they can plow throught the front lines, and sling death all around? Your assumption that modern situations apply to this hypothetical one is flawed.


*to consequences*
And yes, sorry earlier about the ICE engine deal. My mistake, to consequences. Still, game mechanic weight balance doesn't affect their performance, and I'm not a 'son'.

[MKSheppard]

This scenario is also different. It's WW1, and there's no weapon capable of taking one out easilly available, in Battletech or RL in this case. Why would they need to slow down if they can plow throught the front lines, and sling death all around? Your assumption that modern situations apply to this hypothetical one is flawed.

*switches to Desert Eagle and bludgeons Nephyts to death*

Iraq vs US in 2003 was basically what you claim Mecha would do; we were
virtually invincible against whatever the Iraqis could throw at us; all they
had was one fuckload of RPGs and lots of light calibre AA, yet we advanced
at a rate of 55 km a day. Why? You simply can't expect to speed down a
road and live in contested areas, no matter how invincible you are; see
Elefants at Kursk.

Plus there's the fact that Mech pilots need to eat and sleep; how are they
going to rest without any security forces providing security to them deep
behind enemy lines?

[Nephtys]

This scenario is also different. It's WW1, and there's no weapon capable of taking one out easilly available, in Battletech or RL in this case. Why would they need to slow down if they can plow throught the front lines, and sling death all around? Your assumption that modern situations apply to this hypothetical one is flawed.

*switches to Desert Eagle and bludgeons Nephyts to death*

Iraq vs US in 2003 was basically what you claim Mecha would do; we were
virtually invincible against whatever the Iraqis could throw at us; all they
had was one fuckload of RPGs and lots of light calibre AA, yet we advanced
at a rate of 55 km a day. Why? You simply can't expect to speed down a
road and live in contested areas, no matter how invincible you are; see
Elefants at Kursk.

Plus there's the fact that Mech pilots need to eat and sleep; how are they
going to rest without any security forces providing security to them deep
behind enemy lines?

*takes logic and reason and politely taps MKSheppard on the noggin.*

Except one cheap anti-tank missile can still kill a tank in a single hit. Even an RPG can blow off a tank tread, immobilizing it, right? The closest equivilent is a mech being struck from orbital fire, or hit by multiple Arrow IVs. Not happening in this case. And hey, the requirement was to see if mechs broke through, if I recall. Nothing about occupying. If a bunch of Wasps and Locusts can raze Kentares IV, a couple of clan Omnis can easilly level Paris. None of these actions are likely to take more than eight hours.

[Sea Skimmer]

*takes logic and reason and politely taps MKSheppard on the noggin.*

Except one cheap anti-tank missile can still kill a tank in a single hit. Even an RPG can blow off a tank tread, immobilizing it, right? The closest equivilent is a mech being struck from orbital fire, or hit by multiple Arrow IVs. Not happening in this case. And hey, the requirement was to see if mechs broke through, if I recall. Nothing about occupying. If a bunch of Wasps and Locusts can raze Kentares IV, a couple of clan Omnis can easilly level Paris. None of these actions are likely to take more than eight hours.

Except Paris is protected by multiple rings of fortresses that number about 30 in total, equipped with artillery weapons as heavy as turreted 220mm howitzers, and with large pre plotted fields of fire. A mecha attack would be utterly destroyed in the cross fire.

[Batman]

I like it how PainRack continues to claim BT Machine guns are 20mm or more when their ammunition weight clearly puts them in the HMG range. At best, given that the ammo weights also include the weight for the ammo feed.
As for the AC calibres, if the AC calibres stated in the novels are correct that only supports that those guns are ridiculouly low-velocity thanks to the absence of the required recoil. Which would handily explain the abysmal ranges.
As for PainRack's 'It's the targeting systems! Waah!' explanation, why, pray tell, can said systems guide an AC/2 shell to that range but not an AC/20 one?
As for the armor resilience-one word. Dropships.
I rest my case.

[Madurai]

It's hard to take any game that has an ablative armor model seriously.

[SirNitram]

The Mechs will be useful mostly in terms of mobility on the strategic level. When they move at speeds above 40km/hr, and infantry hit 64km/day, it's simply a matter of walking for two hours by Mech and laughing as the opposition tries to redeploy and dig in over two days to match you.

*pats Martin on the head*

It's so lovely when I see someone trying to talk smack when they don't know
what it IS they're talking smack about. Newsflash; Patton's 3rd Army was full
of M4 Shermans that moved at 40~ km/hour, yet 3rd Army only advanced
at a rate of 30~ miles a day.

How cute. You think advancing through enemy positions is the same as redeploying your own lines to outmaneuver an opponent with severely hampered mobility(IE, on foot).

That being said, it's still a silly OP. Where's the Aeros, the tanks, the artillery? These things are all quite common in BTech(I know, I use them), but mysteriously vanish when the anti-mecha brigade starts frothing. Or perhaps it's that despite being inferior to modern vehicles, a swarm of Periphary Alacorns would shatter the WW1 lines like a sledgehammer to a guy's face.