Battletech in World War I

[Batman]

That being said, it's still a silly OP. Where's the Aeros, the tanks, the artillery? These things are all quite common in BTech(I know, I use them), but mysteriously vanish when the anti-mecha brigade starts frothing. Or perhaps it's that despite being inferior to modern vehicles, a swarm of Periphary Alacorns would shatter the WW1 lines like a sledgehammer to a guy's face.

In all fairness BT used to be about Mech vs Mech battles, with combined arms being considered dishonourable or some such garbage.
Besides, it's what the OP states. If somebody does a 'GE vs UFP' one where 5 ISDs are stranded in the Trek galaxy you don't ask 'but where's the rest of the Imperial fleet' now do you?

[SirNitram]

That being said, it's still a silly OP. Where's the Aeros, the tanks, the artillery? These things are all quite common in BTech(I know, I use them), but mysteriously vanish when the anti-mecha brigade starts frothing. Or perhaps it's that despite being inferior to modern vehicles, a swarm of Periphary Alacorns would shatter the WW1 lines like a sledgehammer to a guy's face.

In all fairness BT used to be about Mech vs Mech battles, with combined arms being considered dishonourable or some such garbage.
Besides, it's what the OP states. If somebody does a 'GE vs UFP' one where 5 ISDs are stranded in the Trek galaxy you don't ask 'but where's the rest of the Imperial fleet' now do you?

If the 5 ISD's are deployed without, you know, sensible support? Yea, I do. Because it's dumb, just as is sending in mechs without any form of support. I recignize alot of players do that in the tabletop. I realize there are entire canonical retard brigades that do that. But it's still pretty stupid, and I thought I'd point that out.

And it had to be Omnicraps. Bleargh.

[MKSheppard]

How cute. You think advancing through enemy positions is the same as redeploying your own lines to outmaneuver an opponent with severely hampered mobility(IE, on foot).

How cute, it doesn't know the basics of moving thousands of troops and motorized vehicles on a limited number of roads while having to supply
food, bullets, and gas to those troops.

[SirNitram]

How cute. You think advancing through enemy positions is the same as redeploying your own lines to outmaneuver an opponent with severely hampered mobility(IE, on foot).

How cute, it doesn't know the basics of moving thousands of troops and motorized vehicles on a limited number of roads while having to supply
food, bullets, and gas to those troops.

Not talking about the troops. I'm talking about moving the Omniwankers themselves, which will force the enemy to move troops in response. Omnishits are Clan-wank of the highest degree because they carry a tiny supply chain. Call it shitty writing, and it is. Call it unrealistic, and it is. It's also canon for those tincans. Or are we going to throw out SoD because it offends you?

[Batman]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

[Nephtys]

That being said, it's still a silly OP. Where's the Aeros, the tanks, the artillery? These things are all quite common in BTech(I know, I use them), but mysteriously vanish when the anti-mecha brigade starts frothing. Or perhaps it's that despite being inferior to modern vehicles, a swarm of Periphary Alacorns would shatter the WW1 lines like a sledgehammer to a guy's face.

In all fairness BT used to be about Mech vs Mech battles, with combined arms being considered dishonourable or some such garbage.
Besides, it's what the OP states. If somebody does a 'GE vs UFP' one where 5 ISDs are stranded in the Trek galaxy you don't ask 'but where's the rest of the Imperial fleet' now do you?

BTverse has always had a heavy appreciation for combined arms. While mech-mech heroics are of course promotied, every time an Regimental Combat Team is involved, especially for the AFFS, worshippers of combined arms, they tend to smash and break enemies.

How cute, it doesn't know the basics of moving thousands of troops and motorized vehicles on a limited number of roads while having to supply
food, bullets, and gas to those troops.

So this somehow makes them effective against mechs /how/? You're still trying to pull some strange leaps of logic, that since an infantry force on foot/truck/horse plus their ammunition, gear... is going to stop a force of highly mobile, self-contained battlemechs?

I like it how PainRack continues to claim BT Machine guns are 20mm or more when their ammunition weight clearly puts them in the HMG range. At best, given that the ammo weights also include the weight for the ammo feed.
As for the AC calibres, if the AC calibres stated in the novels are correct that only supports that those guns are ridiculouly low-velocity thanks to the absence of the required recoil. Which would handily explain the abysmal ranges.
As for PainRack's 'It's the targeting systems! Waah!' explanation, why, pray tell, can said systems guide an AC/2 shell to that range but not an AC/20 one?
As for the armor resilience-one word. Dropships.
I rest my case.

Balance. Game Balance. The same reason Aerospace fighter mounted AC's can reach realistic ranges for air-air fights, and why Aeros can hit each other while moving at hundreds of miles per hour with the exact same interchangable AC20's. You're also now talking Dropship armor resillience? Dropships are armored, yes. But they're also fragile in their own way, being aerospace vehicles. Plenty of places to cause heavy damage, especially with BT-verse weapons.

Except Paris is protected by multiple rings of fortresses that number about 30 in total, equipped with artillery weapons as heavy as turreted 220mm howitzers, and with large pre plotted fields of fire. A mecha attack would be utterly destroyed in the cross fire.

Again, with the vague 'they'll OF COURSE be destroyed!!11!' responses. Just because something exists, doesn't mean it'll work. Let's see. Static emplacements with huge naval guns that probably can't be that accurately fired, given literally iron-sights fire control. That sounds grand. Pre-plotted fields? I don't think that means every single bush, tree, patch of dirt is covered. Much more likely to say that they've planned to hit bridges and chokepoints, roads and the like. Which Mechs can bypass. We've seen historically JUST how capable 'invincible' fixed emplacements are. *yawn*

[SirNitram]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

I said short, not nonexistant. Don't strawman, it's rude and fallacious.

Why is it short? I explain for those willing to listen:

1) Clan fusion. Fuel is handled. Aeros and LAMs gargle it, but neither are present here.
2) Omnis typical weapons are energy heavy, or are switchable to energy in minutes(Yes, it's ridiculous). This means ammo isn't an issue(Yes, that's ridiculous too).
3) Pilots are very limited in number compared to any vehicle of the day. Plus, they're fucking Clanners. They're the sort of retards who think pillaging/foraging is a proper warrior tradition.

So you can see how this substantial reduces the problem compared to what Sheppard has been discussing: Tanks that guzzle petrol, spew out shells, and have multiple men inside. And, one more time for those that missed it(Because not reading is common in these threads), I've been talking about repositioning them behind your own lines, to for the other guy to react and soften himself up in other places and spend precious resources moving lots of men and artillery.

That being said, when actually deployed, they're little more than bullet-sponges and obstruction clearers. Just like the first tanks.

[Nephtys]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

Because this'll be over in less than 8 hours, thus no sleep and food, or maintenance. Look at force composition. A trinary. That's 75 mechs, full strength. Paris is history.

[Nephtys]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

Because this'll be over in less than 8 hours, thus no sleep and food, or maintenance. Look at force composition. A trinary. That's 75 mechs, full strength. Paris is history.

Edit: By Trinary, I meant Cluster.

[The Dark]

Bat, I addressed this the last time. First of all, game mechanics are the only thing saying that mechs don't exhibit increased ranges against immobile targets.

I'd prefer Bats if you don't mind. And what you need is something supporting them doing so.

The C3 computer allows any weapon to fire using the range from any other C3-equipped unit. While not direct proof, this suggests the inaccuracies and range limitations are due to ECM and targeting problems, not inherent limitations in the weapons. It is still limited to the maximum range of the weapon, which suggests a limitation on the capability of the C3 unit.

The Long Tom readout is a perfect example of this, unless cities are now built 1 kilometer away from each other.

Long Tom is arty. We're talking 'Mech ranges. The M110 beung able to hit targets 22 km away doesn't mean an Abrams can, too.

It's possible to put Long Tom on a 'Mech. "Generally mounted only in vehicles, but sometimes in BattleMechs..." (BMR pg.123)

4. Targeting. Anybody who manages to miss a 15m tall bulky humanoid at anything less than a kilometre with the naked eye leave alone supposedly sophisticated targeting systems using a Valendamned lightspeed weapon deserves to be shot.

I said this before. Both Battletech, Solaris and Mechwarrior explictly states that mechwarriors engage in maneveuring, and Solaris explictly states that Mechwarriors can dodge enemy fire.

Which ought to be impossible against a lightspeed weapon.

Then explain how I miss so often at laser tag...which uses "a lightspeed weapon."

[Batman]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

I said short, not nonexistant. Don't strawman, it's rude and fallacious.

I may have been exaggerating and I apologize if I was but that was...
Nevermind. This is sd.net. My mistake.

Why is it short? I explain for those willing to listen:
1) Clan fusion. Fuel is handled. Aeros and LAMs gargle it, but neither are present here.

And yet Mech fusion reactors need hydrogen. And, given the firepower the Mechheads want, in not inconsiderable quantities.

2) Omnis typical weapons are energy heavy, or are switchable to energy in minutes(Yes, it's ridiculous). This means ammo isn't an issue(Yes, that's ridiculous too).

Okay. I was not assuming energy-heavy Omnis but you're right. I conceed.

3) Pilots are very limited in number compared to any vehicle of the day. Plus, they're fucking Clanners. They're the sort of retards who think pillaging/foraging is a proper warrior tradition.

Yet they'll succumb to fatigue eventually. I've seen no mention of replacement pilots anywhere.

[SirNitram]

It's possible to put Long Tom on a 'Mech. "Generally mounted only in vehicles, but sometimes in BattleMechs..." (BMR pg.123)

How the fuck many tons does that take?!?!

*Begins taking notes for the Mk2 Landmaster megatank*

[Nephtys]

Err, timeout, TIMEOUT!
Clan Omnis NOT needing supplies, replacement parts, mechanics, Clan OmniPilots NOT needing food, sleep, lodgings etc is canon since when?
@Nitram: I agree the OP's force composition is stupid. But it IS the force composition we're given.

I said short, not nonexistant. Don't strawman, it's rude and fallacious.

I may have been exaggerating and I apologize if I was but that was...
Nevermind. This is sd.net. My mistake.

Why is it short? I explain for those willing to listen:
1) Clan fusion. Fuel is handled. Aeros and LAMs gargle it, but neither are present here.

And yet Mech fusion reactors need hydrogen. And, given the firepower the Mechheads want, in not inconsiderable quantities.

2) Omnis typical weapons are energy heavy, or are switchable to energy in minutes(Yes, it's ridiculous). This means ammo isn't an issue(Yes, that's ridiculous too).

Okay. I was not assuming energy-heavy Omnis but you're right. I conceed.

3) Pilots are very limited in number compared to any vehicle of the day. Plus, they're fucking Clanners. They're the sort of retards who think pillaging/foraging is a proper warrior tradition.

Yet they'll succumb to fatigue eventually. I've seen no mention of replacement pilots anywhere.

1. Mech reactors do just fine operating straight for (at the very, very least) days/weeks without refuel or any kind of maintenance. I've never seen a single case ever of a mech 'running out of gas', even slinging hours and hours of non-stop laser fire. Non-issue.
2. Concession accepted. Most clan mech designs are energy heavy though, with projectile/missiles as secondary weapons.
3. These clanners shouldn't worry about having an 8 hour day. They shouldn't even really worry about an 18-24 hour day. They're physically conditioned to be the top of the heap, really. Even non-clan pilots should do fine given 8-16 hours, most of which isn't even fighting. After that, we'll talk. This battle won't last that long.

[Batman]

The C3 computer allows any weapon to fire using the range from any other C3-equipped unit. While not direct proof, this suggests the inaccuracies and range limitations are due to ECM and targeting problems, not inherent limitations in the weapons. It is still limited to the maximum range of the weapon, which suggests a limitation on the capability of the C3 unit.

No, it suggests those weapons have abominable ranges.

It's possible to put Long Tom on a 'Mech. "Generally mounted only in vehicles, but sometimes in BattleMechs..." (BMR pg.123)

Which doesn't say beans about Mech weapon ranges. I'm sure there's a way to put an M110's gun on an Abrams. Doesn't say beans about the Abrams standard weapons range.

Then explain how I miss so often at laser tag...which uses "a lightspeed weapon."

And at lasertag you are, of course, a trained warrior facing a 15m tall humaniform target using supposedly sophisticated targeting aids at pitiful ranges.

[Batman]

1. Mech reactors do just fine operating straight for (at the very, very least) days/weeks without refuel or any kind of maintenance. I've never seen a single case ever of a mech 'running out of gas', even slinging hours and hours of non-stop laser fire. Non-issue.

Indicating that their fuel usage is reasonably low. I.e. their power is, too.
This is a vs. Real-world rules apply.

2. Concession accepted. Most clan mech designs are energy heavy though, with projectile/missiles as secondary weapons.

That concession was to SirNitram, thank you very much. But now that I'm reminded of it I tend to agree.

3. These clanners shouldn't worry about having an 8 hour day. They shouldn't even really worry about an 18-24 hour day. They're physically conditioned to be the top of the heap, really. Even non-clan pilots should do fine given 8-16 hours, most of which isn't even fighting. After that, we'll talk. This battle won't last that long.

You're delusional.

[Nephtys]

1. Mech reactors do just fine operating straight for (at the very, very least) days/weeks without refuel or any kind of maintenance. I've never seen a single case ever of a mech 'running out of gas', even slinging hours and hours of non-stop laser fire. Non-issue.

Indicating that their fuel usage is reasonably low. I.e. their power is, too.
This is a vs. Real-world rules apply.

2. Concession accepted. Most clan mech designs are energy heavy though, with projectile/missiles as secondary weapons.

That concession was to SirNitram, thank you very much. But now that I'm reminded of it I tend to agree.

3. These clanners shouldn't worry about having an 8 hour day. They shouldn't even really worry about an 18-24 hour day. They're physically conditioned to be the top of the heap, really. Even non-clan pilots should do fine given 8-16 hours, most of which isn't even fighting. After that, we'll talk. This battle won't last that long.

You're delusional.

1. You're now applying RL rules to a game which has rules designed for playability. Good luck. Handwavium says that the generators seem to do fine.
2. I know. I just made the same claim earlier, and wanted to clarify.
3. So wait. You're saying vehicle crews can't work for 8 hours? Especially since a good majority of that won't be in combat? Especially not if these crews are highly trained, physically perfect individuals who live for war? I'm suggesting maximum endurance for a clanner is 18-24 hours, most of which is out of combat. 8 hours with some combat in it isn't unreasonable by any stretch.

[Nephtys]

The C3 computer allows any weapon to fire using the range from any other C3-equipped unit. While not direct proof, this suggests the inaccuracies and range limitations are due to ECM and targeting problems, not inherent limitations in the weapons. It is still limited to the maximum range of the weapon, which suggests a limitation on the capability of the C3 unit.

No, it suggests those weapons have abominable ranges.

It's possible to put Long Tom on a 'Mech. "Generally mounted only in vehicles, but sometimes in BattleMechs..." (BMR pg.123)

Which doesn't say beans about Mech weapon ranges. I'm sure there's a way to put an M110's gun on an Abrams. Doesn't say beans about the Abrams standard weapons range.

Then explain how I miss so often at laser tag...which uses "a lightspeed weapon."

And at lasertag you are, of course, a trained warrior facing a 15m tall humaniform target using supposedly sophisticated targeting aids at pitiful ranges.

1. It means their range is only as good as the spotter's data, thus, C3's fault. It's also again, a game mechanic. See earlier, to aerospace discussion. All weapons clearly have longer usable ranges than game mechanics say. The reason the game is like that of course is so that the game has actual maneuvering matter.

2. Mech-mounted Long Toms are similar to the vehicle. Just darn rare.

3. For ranges, see previous comment. This 'pitiful target' is hard enough to hit if you've played a mechwarrior game even. Especially while firing back, your own mech moving and theirs moving and dodging, in an ECM environment.

[Beowulf]

Then explain how I miss so often at laser tag...which uses "a lightspeed weapon."

That's because you can't shoot straight. And laser tag guns aren't exactly precision weapons.

[Batman]

1. The moment it turns vs real world rules do apply.
2. 75 Clan Omnis or not WW1 is not going to be decided in one day (especially not with there being plenty of weapons to knock them out).
If the Mechs use their speed adavantage, they're going to be alone.
With no food, no guards, no place to sleep except the ground.

[Batman]

1. It means their range is only as good as the spotter's data, thus, C3's fault.

Speculation.

It's also again, a game mechanic. See earlier, to aerospace discussion.

And yet I don't see anybody overriding it with higher canon.

All weapons clearly have longer usable ranges than game mechanics say. The reason the game is like that of course is so that the game has actual maneuvering matter.

Erm-come again?

2. Mech-mounted Long Toms are similar to the vehicle. Just darn rare.

The fact that you can mount artillery on tanks does not mean that artillery and tank guns are the same.

3. For ranges, see previous comment. This 'pitiful target' is hard enough to hit if you've played a mechwarrior game even. Especially while firing back, your own mech moving and theirs moving and dodging, in an ECM environment.

You DO realise that visual targeting, at those ranges, would guarantee hits using WW1 weapons?

[SirNitram]

1. The moment it turns vs real world rules do apply.
2. 75 Clan Omnis or not WW1 is not going to be decided in one day (especially not with there being plenty of weapons to knock them out).
If the Mechs use their speed adavantage, they're going to be alone.
With no food, no guards, no place to sleep except the ground.

1. You use the canon data, not what you want the canon data to be. Sorry, that's the rules of SoD.

2. I agree. However, the introduction of vehicles capable of duplicating the effects of the first tanks will rapidly change the situation. The fact these tanks are functionally able to fight indefinately merely means that the limiting factor is your infantry for pushes to assist them.

[Nephtys]

1. The moment it turns vs real world rules do apply.
2. 75 Clan Omnis or not WW1 is not going to be decided in one day (especially not with there being plenty of weapons to knock them out).
If the Mechs use their speed adavantage, they're going to be alone.
With no food, no guards, no place to sleep except the ground.

Nephtys wrote:

1. It means their range is only as good as the spotter's data, thus, C3's fault.

Speculation.
Quote:
It's also again, a game mechanic. See earlier, to aerospace discussion.

And yet I don't see anybody overriding it with higher canon.
Quote:
All weapons clearly have longer usable ranges than game mechanics say. The reason the game is like that of course is so that the game has actual maneuvering matter.

Erm-come again?
Quote:

2. Mech-mounted Long Toms are similar to the vehicle. Just darn rare.

The fact that you can mount artillery on tanks does not mean that artillery and tank guns are the same.
Quote:
3. For ranges, see previous comment. This 'pitiful target' is hard enough to hit if you've played a mechwarrior game even. Especially while firing back, your own mech moving and theirs moving and dodging, in an ECM environment.

You DO realise that visual targeting, at those ranges, would guarantee hits using WW1 weapons?

You want to play RL rules? Fine. If game mechanics don't matter, it's clear that Mech armor can CERTAINLY stop 105-120mm shells without any damage, as the case with the Mackie. Weapons have their realistic ranges, and a small laser dumb-fired can certainly exceed 90 meters. Thus, range was all a game mechanic. Lasers should even with iron sights be accurate to far greater ranges. Consistancy is a bitch, and if you want to play it this way, the mechs certainly get a big leg up.

Stop being a little weasel, Batman. The entire argument that an AC20 is low velocity is speculation. All those previous (and refuted) claims that WW1 arty could pose a threat are speculation. I'm trying to bring reason here, and it stands to reason that if we play realistic rules, that means a mech far exceeds modern capabilities, and will certainly mean this is a lopsided fight in favor of the mechs. No food? No guards? No sleep? AGAIN, you refuse to listen or even refute my previous argument that this would be over before any of the mechwarriors needed such a thing. You're trying to stonewall me with your 'Nah-nah, I won't listen!!!' line of reason. We're talking about smashing through lines to Paris. Mechs can do that, and they can burn Paris to the ground.

You're still trying to walk both sides of the street with the 'game mechanics or realism' argument, and not even bothering to answer half the points I bring. Please, give it a rest.

[Batman]

1. You use the canon data, not what you want the canon data to be. Sorry, that's the rules of SoD.

I agree. However, SoD does NOT require 'Mechs to have the absurd firepower that the Mechheads want them to. Until somebody can explain the range problem to me in a way that makes sense, I'll assume their ranges suck, until somebody explains the recoil problem to me in a way that makes sense I'll maintain their guns are low velocity, until someone can explain the armor problem to me I'll maintain BT armor sucks, especially Dropship armor, add to that the ammo weight problem...
I DO use the canon data. It merely makes no sense.

[SirNitram]

1. You use the canon data, not what you want the canon data to be. Sorry, that's the rules of SoD.

I agree. However, SoD does NOT require 'Mechs to have the absurd firepower that the Mechheads want them to. Until somebody can explain the range problem to me in a way that makes sense, I'll assume their ranges suck, until somebody explains the recoil problem to me in a way that makes sense I'll maintain their guns are low velocity, until someone can explain the armor problem to me I'll maintain BT armor sucks, especially Dropship armor, add to that the ammo weight problem...
I DO use the canon data. It merely makes no sense.

The ranges are best explained as jamming, and I beleive that's canon. Then again, what the hell does it matter? Seventy five mechs as an armoured push with the infantry behind them will be, effectively, a seventy five tank spear into the lines defending Paris. That will shatter the line. Will there be casualties? Yep. Will mech inaccuracy be a problem? Pretty likely. However, you can't simply say 'I refuse to beleive things are as they are shown, that fusion cores can run more or less indefinately on very little fuel, and power energy weapon the whole time'.

[Nephtys]

1. You use the canon data, not what you want the canon data to be. Sorry, that's the rules of SoD.

I agree. However, SoD does NOT require 'Mechs to have the absurd firepower that the Mechheads want them to. Until somebody can explain the range problem to me in a way that makes sense, I'll assume their ranges suck, until somebody explains the recoil problem to me in a way that makes sense I'll maintain their guns are low velocity, until someone can explain the armor problem to me I'll maintain BT armor sucks, especially Dropship armor, add to that the ammo weight problem...
I DO use the canon data. It merely makes no sense.

Let me put it this way. Gameplay wise, if you use the 1 hex = 30 meters, then common periphery infantry rifles (described as being descendants of a 20th century assault rifles) have ranges of 60 meters, when used by a platoon. That is certainly not true, right? I myself have NO weapons experience with anything with a muzzle velocity higher than a slingshot, and I'm damn sure I can hit an immobile mech at 90 meters with a rifle, 50 percent beyond the range of the 'in game' Rifle Infantry platoon units.

The ranges are arbitary in the game mechanic for ground based, mainly for playability. If ranges were realistic, mechs would be slinging it out open-field at ranges in excess of miles, and thus tactical maneuvering would not be a factor. With an AC20 having a range of 9 hexes, a mech thus can dance around other mechs and use smart maneuvering to gain an advantage. In the books, this can be explained as most 'duels' take place in broken terrain anyway where ranges won't exceed that because of obstructions. In battletech, they do have recoil compensation as well as the fact that mechs are depicted as relatively stable firing platforms. Their armor taking damage to 'mech-scale MGs' again, is a game mechanic. Let me point this out. A full platoon in game opening up with small arms can do a point of damage to a mech. Why? So they're not worthless. Otherwise, this would be saying that 2 platoons (40 guys) with pistols and rifles can do the same damage to a tank as direct hit by a 150mm shell. That's ludicrous. BT armor, by all other accounts, is pretty good. Again, the mackie is one notable example with a weapon system we can all relate to. But in other places, such as novels, it doesn't show mechs being brought down or even damaged by personal rifle fire, does it?

The game mechanics for the weapons are obviously that. Game mechanics, and not accurate to reality at all. If we take things realistically, mechs would have to be darn deadly.