Why didn't Obi Wan raise Luke himself?

[Perinquus]

Think about it. If Obi Wan had raised Luke himself, he could have started the boy's training as early as was usual for a Jedi, and Luke's training wouldn't have been so abbreviated. Yes, yes, I know all about how Obi Wan considered that he'd failed training Anakin, and he beat himself up for being arrogant enough ever to think he could have done as well as Yoda would have. But surely he could have avoided making some of the same mistakes.

And let's not forget, one of the chief objections to training Anakin was his late start. It's indicated in the novelization of ROTS that the emotional attachment he formed to his mother early in life was part of the problem. It made it difficult for Anakin to achieve the emotional detachment the Jedi seem to feel is so necessary to avoid being lured over to the Dark Side. That same problem would exist for Luke, but more so, given that he got started much later in life than his father had. Yoda certainly seemed to think that Luke's relatively old age was a real problem.

Why did Yoda and Obi Wan elect to leave it till it was almost too late to start training Luke? With the infant Luke literally in their hands, they had every opportunity to begin his training without any delay whatever. I realize that Yoda came to the realization that the old way of training was not going to answer the crisis they had to face, and the Jedi's stagnation had proved fatal before the Sith, who had grown and adapted. Yet surely they could have simply changed the focus of Luke's training, to meet the need for change and still begun to train him earlier.

[Ghost Rider]

The novel answers this. Yoda bluntly stated that it was training them so young is what fucked them over. With Luke and Leia, Yoda felt it was wiser that they lead normal lives, acquire discpline through some other means then the order. He felt at the time that it was wiser that simply they have lives other then being a Jedi, and this would teach them lessons that they failed so poorly with the Jedi Order in dealing with the Sith.

[Madurai]

The Jedi, and Yoda in particular, have not had an exemplary decision-making track record. it's a wonder the Republic lasted as long as it did.

[SPOOFE]

Yay, he couldn't prevent his padawan and best friend from succumbing to the Dark Side and becoming one of the greatest enemies the Jedi had ever seen. I'm sure he was just aching to give it another shot.

[Stofsk]

Yay, he couldn't prevent his padawan and best friend from succumbing to the Dark Side and becoming one of the greatest enemies the Jedi had ever seen. I'm sure he was just aching to give it another shot.

He was willing to give it another shot. Yoda was the one who talked him out of it, but Obi-wan brought it up about how they should train the two from birth onwards.

[Perinquus]

The novel answers this. Yoda bluntly stated that it was training them so young is what fucked them over. With Luke and Leia, Yoda felt it was wiser that they lead normal lives, acquire discpline through some other means then the order. He felt at the time that it was wiser that simply they have lives other then being a Jedi, and this would teach them lessons that they failed so poorly with the Jedi Order in dealing with the Sith.

But was that necessarily a good call on his part. The good guys finally prevailed because they got lucky. Pure and simple. Luke simply wasn't anywhere close to being powerful enough to bring down the emperor. The only reason that the emperor fell was because of an event that Yoda and Obi Wan clearly hadn't factored into their plans -- there was some good left in Vader, and Luke was able to bring it out.

Luke, whatever else he learned, didn't learn discipline so well. Yoda said from the beginning that he was impulsive and and excitable, yearning for adventure. And when push came to shove, Luke proved him right and ran off half cocked. He barely escaped with his life, and never did get enough training to properly equip him for the job he had to do. Had Luke started training earlier, he might have not only become powerful enough to resist being fried outright once the emperor started to zap him. He might also have acquired some much needed discipline to temper his impulsive nature.

It seems to me that it should have been possible to train Luke from a much younger age and still rectify this problem. The Jedi weren't just trained almost from birth, they were trained almost from birth while in the isolation of the monastic Jedi temple. So why not simply dispense with the isolation. Allow him a semi-normal life, but still have him devote much of each day to his training. It would have served their purpose and allowed him a less isolated life, yet still prepared him better. I know they felt they needed to change their method. But the approach they ended up taking -- give him no training at all until it's almost too late -- seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Perinquus]

The Jedi, and Yoda in particular, have not had an exemplary decision-making track record. it's a wonder the Republic lasted as long as it did.

Excuse me, they lasted for thousands upon thousands of years. Most civilizations don't endure so long. It's hard to represent them as incompetent fuck ups when they actually have an immensely better endurance record than almost anyone you can point to.

[Madurai]

The Jedi, and Yoda in particular, have not had an exemplary decision-making track record. it's a wonder the Republic lasted as long as it did.

Excuse me, they lasted for thousands upon thousands of years. Most civilizations don't endure so long. It's hard to represent them as incompetent fuck ups when they actually have an immensely better endurance record than almost anyone you can point to.

Exactly--and yet the Jedi manage to screw up almost every important decision that we seen them make. That's why I said "It's a wonder."

[Ghost Rider]

The novel answers this. Yoda bluntly stated that it was training them so young is what fucked them over. With Luke and Leia, Yoda felt it was wiser that they lead normal lives, acquire discpline through some other means then the order. He felt at the time that it was wiser that simply they have lives other then being a Jedi, and this would teach them lessons that they failed so poorly with the Jedi Order in dealing with the Sith.

But was that necessarily a good call on his part. The good guys finally prevailed because they got lucky. Pure and simple. Luke simply wasn't anywhere close to being powerful enough to bring down the emperor. The only reason that the emperor fell was because of an event that Yoda and Obi Wan clearly hadn't factored into their plans -- there was some good left in Vader, and Luke was able to bring it out.

Very true, in fact there greater concern looked to be that Luke kill Vader, and in some weird stroke of luck, Kill Palps.

Luke, whatever else he learned, didn't learn discipline so well. Yoda said from the beginning that he was impulsive and and excitable, yearning for adventure. And when push came to shove, Luke proved him right and ran off half cocked. He barely escaped with his life, and never did get enough training to properly equip him for the job he had to do. Had Luke started training earlier, he might have not only become powerful enough to resist being fried outright once the emperor started to zap him. He might also have acquired some much needed discipline to temper his impulsive nature.

It seems to me that it should have been possible to train Luke from a much younger age and still rectify this problem. The Jedi weren't just trained almost from birth, they were trained almost from birth while in the isolation of the monastic Jedi temple. So why not simply dispense with the isolation. Allow him a semi-normal life, but still have him devote much of each day to his training. It would have served their purpose and allowed him a less isolated life, yet still prepared him better. I know they felt they needed to change their method. But the approach they ended up taking -- give him no training at all until it's almost too late -- seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

In that thought, it would've been better. I figure their hesitation was that either of them would've fallen upon old ways and that would be ultimately the problem. They knew of no other way of teaching. Course having an impulsive head strong student come to them was definitly not in the plans much either.

They probably should have taken the course you suggested and that is train Luke but give him a relative normal life, but I really believe they were so struck by what happened and added to that they really had no idea other wise, they figured this road was just the better choice.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

There could have also been the safety issue. The Emperor had his Dark Jedi running around the galaxy looking for those who had escaped the Purge. If they trained Luke from infancy--during a time where the threat of capture was very real--their last hope (as they so believed it) would've been lost before he ever had a chance.

[Stravo]

Compare Obi Wan's training in ANH to how he treats Anakin in AOTC. Clearly Obi Wan learned not to be such an overbearing ass with Luke. Obi Wan seemed to spend most of Anakin's training trying to reign Anakin in - always reminding him he was a padawan, always challenging Anakin's intincts and assertions.

On the MF Obi Wan was tryting to push Luke to learn more, to let go and trust his feelings. He was a kindly grandfather figure as opposed to the strict disciplinarian we see in AOTC.

Frankly Obi Wan would have been a far better teacher for Luke. In the span of a few days he formed such a bond with the boy that he challeneged a bay full of stormtroopers, trusted in a wacky voice in his head in the midst of combat, fashioned his first lightsaber to be an exact replica of his master's, names his son after him. Obi Wan would have molded Luke into a fantastic Jedi Knight following Ben's ideals.

In his waning years Ben Kenobi learned how to be a teacher and thanks to him Luke got the foundation he needed to defeat the Emperor and turn his father on Endor.

[Perinquus]

There could have also been the safety issue. The Emperor had his Dark Jedi running around the galaxy looking for those who had escaped the Purge. If they trained Luke from infancy--during a time where the threat of capture was very real--their last hope (as they so believed it) would've been lost before he ever had a chance.

I find that difficult to believe. In a galaxy with tens of millions of inhabited worlds, and many of them uncharted, whole divisions of Dark Jedi could have searched for several human lifetimes and still not even have come close to looking everywhere.

[Madurai]

There could have also been the safety issue. The Emperor had his Dark Jedi running around the galaxy looking for those who had escaped the Purge. If they trained Luke from infancy--during a time where the threat of capture was very real--their last hope (as they so believed it) would've been lost before he ever had a chance.

I find that difficult to believe. In a galaxy with tens of millions of inhabited worlds, and many of them uncharted, whole divisions of Dark Jedi could have searched for several human lifetimes and still not even have come close to looking everywhere.

They might especially have not picked Vader's homeworld and relatives as a hiding spot if hiding were that damn important.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I find that difficult to believe. In a galaxy with tens of millions of inhabited worlds, and many of them uncharted, whole divisions of Dark Jedi could have searched for several human lifetimes and still not even have come close to looking everywhere.

Certainly not, and the continued existance of Obi-Wan and Yoda illustrate this. But there was still the threat of losing young Luke. The Emperor's forces seemed to be very good at what they did. This details some of those institutions very well (go down to "The Great Jedi Purge").

[Cykeisme]

Compare Obi Wan's training in ANH to how he treats Anakin in AOTC. Clearly Obi Wan learned not to be such an overbearing ass with Luke. Obi Wan seemed to spend most of Anakin's training trying to reign Anakin in - always reminding him he was a padawan, always challenging Anakin's intincts and assertions.

On the MF Obi Wan was tryting to push Luke to learn more, to let go and trust his feelings. He was a kindly grandfather figure as opposed to the strict disciplinarian we see in AOTC.

Frankly Obi Wan would have been a far better teacher for Luke. In the span of a few days he formed such a bond with the boy that he challeneged a bay full of stormtroopers, trusted in a wacky voice in his head in the midst of combat, fashioned his first lightsaber to be an exact replica of his master's, names his son after him. Obi Wan would have molded Luke into a fantastic Jedi Knight following Ben's ideals.

In his waning years Ben Kenobi learned how to be a teacher and thanks to him Luke got the foundation he needed to defeat the Emperor and turn his father on Endor.

*clap clap clap*
*sniffle*

[Perinquus]

Compare Obi Wan's training in ANH to how he treats Anakin in AOTC. Clearly Obi Wan learned not to be such an overbearing ass with Luke. Obi Wan seemed to spend most of Anakin's training trying to reign Anakin in - always reminding him he was a padawan, always challenging Anakin's intincts and assertions.

On the MF Obi Wan was tryting to push Luke to learn more, to let go and trust his feelings. He was a kindly grandfather figure as opposed to the strict disciplinarian we see in AOTC.

Well, that would partly be because Luke presented a different problem to Obi Wan than his father had. Anakin was a headstrong young prodigy when he came to the Jedi order. What's more, he knew how special he was (recall his boasting to Qui Gon in TPM that he was the only human who could compete in the pod races). Being taken into the order under such unusual and difficult circumstances probably made him rather diffident, and a little isolated, and this no doubt reinforced his naturally stubborn and independent streak. Furthermore, he lacked a strong male role model. Watto was seemingly not an unkindly master, but he was still an owner, not a father. Growing up without an adult male for guidance probably threw Anakin back on his own resources for solving certain problems and facing certain challenges, and this too would have reinforced his independent streak.

Luke, on the other hand, was a very different case. There's a reason Obi Wan had to prod and encourage Luke, where he'd had to reign Anakin in. Obi Wan didn't need to restrain Luke because Owen Lars had been doing it for him the boy's whole life. You know, it's really quite impressive, when you look back on it, how well made ANH was. Owen Lars appears in only three scenes, and has only a few lines of dialogue, yet it's handled so well that just that little bit is enough to let you clearly see the whole history of his relationship with his foster son. He's a stern man, probably not really good with children, and never given to any sort of overt displays of affection. Probably most of the praise Luke got was the hell he didn't. Luke's clearly always been a little intimidated by him, and Owen is unquestionably the alpha male of the Lars/Skywalker household. Yet withal, Lars is not at all a bad man. He's obviously wished all Luke's life to make a farmer out of him, and drive all these grand dreams of adventure out of his head. He doubtless knew of Anakin's fate, and figured that's what happens when you have adventures. The simple life is far better. He's a simple, salt-of-the-earth sort of fellow, and he does have genuine fatherly affection for Luke (even if he's no good at showing it), and fears for the boys safety if he ever gets out among the stars. This is why he holds Luke back from joining the academy. He's stalling him, hoping that if he can hold Luke back long enough, Luke may give up all these starry eyed dreams of adventure and settle down to making an honest living, grow old, and die in his bed.

With a background like this, Obi Wan has a different problem on his hands. Instead of having to reign in an impetuous and headstrong boy, naturally inclined to go his own way and do what he wants, he's got to encourage Luke to spread his wings, believe he has a destiny, and overcome a lifetime of indoctrination that tells him he's nothing special, just a simple farmer.

[Crown]

There could have also been the safety issue. The Emperor had his Dark Jedi running around the galaxy looking for those who had escaped the Purge. If they trained Luke from infancy--during a time where the threat of capture was very real--their last hope (as they so believed it) would've been lost before he ever had a chance.

I find that difficult to believe. In a galaxy with tens of millions of inhabited worlds, and many of them uncharted, whole divisions of Dark Jedi could have searched for several human lifetimes and still not even have come close to looking everywhere.

Ordinarily, you'd have a very, very good point. But this isn't an ordinary example, you're forgetting about the Force.

Obi-Wan was one hell of a sneaky bastard to survive to ANH, he didn't have the 'dark side cave' trick that Yoda did that nulled his Force presence, he just had to be very, very good at hiding himself and his influence in the Force.

Consider; in the scholastic 'Last of the Jedi' series, he is in the same room as a Dark Side Jedi inquisitor twice and the guy has no idea that Obi-Wan is there.

But in TESB Luke uses to Force once to TK his lightsabre, and all of a sudden the Emperor is calling Vader collect to tell him that 'there has been a disturbance in the Force'.

It seems difficult that Obi-Wan and Yoda could have remaind affectively hidden, while also training Luke and Leia respectively.

[Stofsk]

But in TESB Luke uses to Force once to TK his lightsabre, and all of a sudden the Emperor is calling Vader collect to tell him that 'there has been a disturbance in the Force'.

Um, that scene takes place sometime later. Like several days/weeks later. I don't think Luke using TK triggered the Emperor's prescience.

I thought that scene takes place after Luke arrived on Dagobah, which coincides with the immediacy of "there is a great disturbance in the Force..." because the Emperor could see Luke meeting his destiny by finding the last remaining Jedi master.

[Crown]

But in TESB Luke uses to Force once to TK his lightsabre, and all of a sudden the Emperor is calling Vader collect to tell him that 'there has been a disturbance in the Force'.

Um, that scene takes place sometime later. Like several days/weeks later. I don't think Luke using TK triggered the Emperor's prescience.

I thought that scene takes place after Luke arrived on Dagobah, which coincides with the immediacy of "there is a great disturbance in the Force..." because the Emperor could see Luke meeting his destiny by finding the last remaining Jedi master.

Yeah, you're right about the timing, but they were sort of speaking in the past tense, which would lead me to believe that little bit of TK feat ... although I admit your explaination is valid (if a little outer-wordly, but then again with the Force, who am I to bitch?).

Still my overall point stands though. If they were just reacting to Luke meeting Yoda for the long stretch of his training (and thus destiny), then shouldn't alarm bells be ringing even louder and sooner when infant Luke sits crossed legged infront of Obi-Wan when he first starts his training in this alternate timeline/scenario?

Either way, I'm more leaning towards the 'hidding' hypothosis. Consider; in ANH Luke is starting to use the Force, Obi-Wan is right there. Then on the DS Vader suddenly picks up Obi-Wan leaking his presense all over the place. Now maybe one day after Obi-Wan's death in the DS trench, Vader muses how 'the Force is strong in this one [Luke]', but what has changed that Vader would suddenly pick Luke out? Obi-Wan's absense, and I think presence with Luke in that scene (you know what I mean).

[Tsyroc]

In his waning years Ben Kenobi learned how to be a teacher and thanks to him Luke got the foundation he needed to defeat the Emperor and turn his father on Endor.

Do you think that maybe his continued training and communication with Qui-Gon might have had something to do with this? Qui-Gon seemed to be a good teacher from what little we saw of him.

Obviously all that Obi-Wan went through would also have a strong influence on him.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Either way, I'm more leaning towards the 'hidding' hypothosis. Consider; in ANH Luke is starting to use the Force, Obi-Wan is right there. Then on the DS Vader suddenly picks up Obi-Wan leaking his presense all over the place. Now maybe one day after Obi-Wan's death in the DS trench, Vader muses how 'the Force is strong in this one [Luke]', but what has changed that Vader would suddenly pick Luke out? Obi-Wan's absense, and I think presence with Luke in that scene (you know what I mean).

Uhm, maybe because he was actively using the Force a lot more than before to ace the shot to the exhaust port.

[Stravo]

In his waning years Ben Kenobi learned how to be a teacher and thanks to him Luke got the foundation he needed to defeat the Emperor and turn his father on Endor.

Do you think that maybe his continued training and communication with Qui-Gon might have had something to do with this? Qui-Gon seemed to be a good teacher from what little we saw of him.

Obviously all that Obi-Wan went through would also have a strong influence on him.

I like to think of it as him in his solitude on Tatooine continually going over what he did wrong and realizing on his own that he was just a horrible teacher. Hell, he realized that on Mustafar when he said "I have failed you Anakin."

I like to think that it means more when you realize your own flaws then having someone else point them out to you.

Now Qui Gon giving him pointers while they commune works for me as well but there's something to be said about learning from your mistakes.

[Crazedwraith]

I like to think of it as him in his solitude on Tatooine continually going over what he did wrong and realizing on his own that he was just a horrible teacher. Hell, he realized that on Mustafar when he said "I have failed you Anakin."

I like to think that it means more when you realize your own flaws then having someone else point them out to you.

So having your apprentice go on a kill crazy rampage through his home and murder a bunch of kiddies, doesn't qualifiy as it being pointed out?

[Crown]

Either way, I'm more leaning towards the 'hidding' hypothosis. Consider; in ANH Luke is starting to use the Force, Obi-Wan is right there. Then on the DS Vader suddenly picks up Obi-Wan leaking his presense all over the place. Now maybe one day after Obi-Wan's death in the DS trench, Vader muses how 'the Force is strong in this one [Luke]', but what has changed that Vader would suddenly pick Luke out? Obi-Wan's absense, and I think presence with Luke in that scene (you know what I mean).

Uhm, maybe because he was actively using the Force a lot more than before to ace the shot to the exhaust port.

I'm sorry using the Force to know when to pull the trigger at the right moment, and using the Force to 'see' the remote with no vision are orders of magnitude apart

I'm sorry I think I misunderstood you. Are you saying he TK'ed the missile? Or that he wasn't using the Force on the DS?


You know the latter makes a hell of a lot more sense, so sorry if I was seemed like an ass, it's just that your sentence is a little ... ambiguous.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I like to think of it as him in his solitude on Tatooine continually going over what he did wrong and realizing on his own that he was just a horrible teacher. Hell, he realized that on Mustafar when he said "I have failed you Anakin."

I like to think that it means more when you realize your own flaws then having someone else point them out to you.

So having your apprentice go on a kill crazy rampage through his home and kill a bunch of kiddies, doesn;t qualifiy as it being pointed out?

He probably got an F on morals and Dark side resistance