The Specifics of the 'Chosen One' Prophesy

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-06-06 12:14pm

Do the novels tells any of the specifics of the chosen one prophesy?

As in

Who made it?
When was it made?
the wording of the prophecy.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-06-06 02:23pm

Just give them time...!

Probably really vague/cryptic as prophecies tend to be. Some speculate that the prophecy was a fake, that it was written up by some Sith, and this idea will probably be stolen by some EU author, so in fact it was written by Plagueis and edited by Palpatine.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-06-06 02:39pm

"Bring Balance to the Force"

Awhile back, I brought up the fact that thousands of force-sensitive Jedi > two Sith, and that bringing "balance" meant killing a lot of light-side users.

The rebuttal was that George Lucas said that darksiders are inherently bad for The Force.

So quick question -- is what George Lucas "says" canon?

<edit>nevermind, of course it is. bah a waste post.</edit>

Brian

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-06 03:00pm

It amazes me that with all the “He will bring balance to the Force” talk that nobody thought to ask which side?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-06-06 03:04pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:It amazes me that with all the “He will bring balance to the Force” talk that nobody thought to ask which side?

as it assumed to bring the sides into balance, there's no side so to speak

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-07 05:47am

"Lots of Jedi, few Sith = imbalance" sounds like a ridiculously simplistic view of something that's supposed to be shrouded in mystery (the Force).

And yes, I have nothing to add. Kthxbai.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-06-07 05:52am

I always thought the sides of the force was a human distinction, if you excuse the use of the term human. I don't have another word for it. It was arbitary, and that the force itself has no real 'dark/light'-ness to it... that's just how people interpereted two different ideologies. So personally, I figure the prophecy was bogus, but just happened anyway.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-07 03:22pm

I always thought the sides of the force was a human distinction, if you excuse the use of the term human. I don't have another word for it.

Humanoid maybe?
Sentient?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-06-08 08:02am

Well......... its probably from the Bendu.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-06-08 08:08am

Labyrinth of Evil expands on the prophecy, but I can't recall the exact wording, but it's something like the dark times would unfold and the Chosen One would be borned into the midst.

I don't have any idea who came up with it though... probably it's some ancient Jedi.

Oskuro · Post by **Oskuro** » 2005-06-08 10:29am

Hmmmm, the prophesy is mentioned throughout the three PT episodes, but it feels more like an afterthought to Anakin's story..... Still, my interpretation is as follows:

"bring back balance to the force" The force in general somehow got out of balance in the past. My guess is that it might be a consequence of the Jedi vanquishing the Sith, and the subsequent supression of Darksiders.

"it is a force field created by all living beings" This phrase by ObiWan leads me to see the force as an extension of life. Light side is the rational side, while Dark side is the basic instincts. Both are integral parts, and both should be balanced. "Stronger? No, faster, more seductive, but not stronger" Yoda implies that the Dark side is not stronger... but he does not imply that it is weaker. Dark and Light sides are probably equivalent.

I think the balance might be broken not because there were more Jedi after the Sith defeat, but because the remaining Sith grew in power excessively, while the Jedi, devoid of opponents, grew complacent, arrogant and became stagnant. This yields, finally, Sith as powerful as Sidious, able to pull a dark shroud over all the Jedi.

Thus, restoration of the balance would require a sort of reset of the force, or more precisely, of the force users. Solution? Even if we accept the theory of Plagueis somehow creating Anakin, we could see it, ultimately, as the Will of the force that Anakin emerged.

So, the extermination of the Jedi order, and the final destruction of Palpatine was, probably, the plan all along. It was all reset, with Luke, who is quite in between the light and dark side, left alive to restart everything.

And, to me, Yoda was the only one to come to realise part of this, as he did point out that the Jedi were becoming arrogant. Probably, the rest of the Jedi thought that their inability to become more powerful in the force was due to this imbalance, and not to their own self-complacency.

Anyway, just speculation. Forgive the quotes, but I remember them more clearly on a different language, and must translate them, so they might not be correct.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-06-08 01:01pm

Perhaps the Jedi Prophecy revolving around the Chosen One was religious bullplop that they generated over the years and we're tacking on to the Anakin situation. When it turned out to be bogus, you had Yoda going "Maybe we misread the prophecy" (convert to Yoda speak) and Mace Windu nodding sagely, but religious folks do that all the time when their religious texts turn out to not work in reality. Rather than saying "Well, maybe the text was wasn't a real prophecy" they went "Maybe we are just misreading it. What's wrong with us?".

Drunk Monkey · Post by **Drunk Monkey** » 2005-06-08 01:13pm

I’m sure the EU will cover it soon, come on now they have to,Lucas never really said much about it so it’s inevitable.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2005-06-08 02:45pm

Regarding figuring out what exactly the prophecy says, I've gone digging through the prequel scripts:

TPM wrote:QUI-GON
With your permission, my Master. I have encountered a vergence in the Force.

YODA
A vergence, you say?

MACE WINDU
Located around a person?

QUI-GON
A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

MACE WINDU
You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force... you believe it's this boy?

QUI-GON
The Force is unusally strong with him, that much is clear. Who was his father?

AOTC wrote:MACE WINDU: Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

ROTS wrote:OBI-WAN
With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE
So the prophecy says.

YODA
A prophecy . . . that misread could have been.

OBI-WAN
You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness.

Also, this is from the Ep2 script, but IIRC not in the movie:

MACE WINDU: Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?

YODA: Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force.

MACE WINDU: The prophecy is coming true, the Dark Side is growing.

YODA: And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future.

So, at least from the Jedi interpretation, we know:
- There will be a person who was conceived by the midichlorians, which can be indicated by an extraordinarily high midichlorian count. [A child will be born who has no father]
- A vergence in the Force will be located around them.
- They will be unusually strong with the Force.
- They will exist in a time when the Force has gone out of balance.
- They will exist in a time when the power of the Dark Side grows and the ability of Light Side-users to use the Force will become diminished. [The Shroud of the Dark Side will fall]
- They will destroy the Sith.
- They will bring the Force back into balance/bring balance to the Force.
- They will be the only one who can bring balance to the Force.

The Jedi interpretation seems to make the Dark Side out to be an unnatural disruption/contamination of the Force, that the stronger the Dark Side is, the less balanced the Force is.

Here are some relevant quotes that might be useful.

TPM wrote:QUI-GON
...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU
A Sith Lord?!?

KI-ADI
Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.

YODA
The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are.

MACE WINDU
I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing.

YODA
Hard to see, the dark side is. Discover who this assassin is, we must.

AOTC wrote: MACE WINDU
What do you sense, Master?

YODA
The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is. But this I am sure of - (opens his eyes) Do their duty, the Jedi will.

YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

COUNT DOOKU: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?

OBI-WAN: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it.

COUNT DOOKU: The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

YODA: Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has!

ROTS wrote:OBI-WAN: The Force grows dark, Anakin, and we are all affected by it. Be wary of your feelings.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-08 02:53pm

The balance is in the powers and skills offered by the two sides of the force. In Ancient times, the Light and Dark side were supposedly equal, but because the Jedi stagnated before the fall of the empire, and the Sith grew and adapted, the power a Dark Side user could command grew.

As such, the Force took action to restore balance, destroy the stangnant jedi and allow them to be replaced by a new and better Jedi order. It also took action via its Chosen One to destroy the Sith, whose knowlege and wisdom allowed them to call on the Force far more effectively than light siders. Hence, in the time of the PT, the Dark Side Users are much stronger than their rivals, after Palpatine is destroyed by the Chosen One, and the body of Dark Side knowlege dies with the last authentic Sith Lord, balance has been restored.

You can choose the Dark Side, but you will not be more powerful than a rival on the Light Side, because the Light Side users are able to adapt just as well as the Dark Side Users, thanks to the destruction of the Jedi and Sith Orders.

- Or at least, that's the theory Lucas seems to be going with, rather than something as simplistic as "Kill all but two Jedi."

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-08 03:07pm

Didnt the JediVsSith comics have the same thing happen to the sith lords?
(growing "weaker")

Oskuro · Post by **Oskuro** » 2005-06-09 03:59am

[quote="NecronLord"]- Or at least, that's the theory Lucas seems to be going with, rather than something as simplistic as "Kill all but two Jedi."[/quote]

I don't think it is about how many Jedi survive, but about the quality of the surviving Jedi. The Old Republic Jedi were stagnant because of their isolation to real life. Younglings were sent to the order, and their path was set in stone. Luke, on the other hand, became close to the Dark Side, but finally chose to not go there. That I belive is the important bit, the ability to choose, an ability that, as Anakin exemplifies during the PT, was denied of Old Republic Jedi.

I don't know if this was Lucas' intent, but I belive that, in life, it is the choosing that matters. A person can be forced to lead an exemplary life by simply denying all other options (much like that farce some call education is handled today), but it will all be worthless if, once exposed to other options, this person is unable to choose correctly.
Life is full of its light and dark sides, and sooner or later we will have to choose. Better to be prepared for the choosing, than trying to delay it endlessly to later find out you are not ready at all.

pskouson · Post by **pskouson** » 2005-06-16 01:18am

Prophecies are an interesting topic. First of all, let's start with the assumption that prophecies are real. That seems to be the case in the movies. I think most people make 2 mistakes about prophecies: They want to understand them NOW, and they want to be a part of the fulfillment of the prophecy. I think Qui-Gon made both mistakes, and Yoda and Mace Windu tried to avoid making them. It seems to me that the best way to handle a prophecy (assuming, as the Jedi do, that prophecies are real), is to do what you think you should do, and what you would do with or without a prophecy. Obi-Wan seems to have treated his padawan like a gifted Jedi, not like a Chosen One. Yoda and Mace seem to have treated him the same as they would any other extraordinarily gifted Jedi as well, never fully trusting what they thought the prophecy would turn out to mean. Remember, no one but the prophets know what a prophecy really mean. Also, perhaps the multiple ways in which the prophecies can come to pass are a part of the beauty of it. Maybe all your interpretations are right. I guess there is a third mistake, then: Assuming you know what it means.

My thoughts on what it meant are this: At the end of Ep. III, there were 2 Jedi, 2 Sith. That fulfills the literal meaning of balancing. Now, assuming that the Sith are inherently bad for the force, Anakin fulfills the prophecy of destroying the Sith at the end of RotJ.

This discussion reminds me of the book Life is a Dream by Pedro Calderón de la Barca. It's in Spanish, but you can find translations online. Try Gutenberg Project.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-06-16 03:42am

Ok let me start of by saying a how I define a few things.

Jedi trying to keep the balance in the force. They protect life but also don’t grieve over death. It is all part of the greater force.

Sith try to destroy the balance. They trying to use the force for there own personal benefit.

The balance is the balance between life and death. The force needs both and is both.

Now the prophecy. The it says the chosen one will bring balance to the force. The problem is it can not do it with the existing Jedi order because it has become stagnant. The force must destroy the Jedi so Luke can restart them.

Think of the chosen one like a reset switch. I don’t think the joining of the sith and destroying there knowledge of the force was integral to it. It was just the method that was chosen for the reset to occur.

Please tell me if my theory is totally bogus.

P.S. I think the lead up to the chosen one prophecy would make a great movie. You would have sith battling Jedi on a stormy watery planet. The person who will have the vision will be female and Jedi and sith will be fighting around her then everything will just stop as she starts to speak. It would then go to dream/vision viewer and you would be Anakin last an over voice speaks the full prophecy.

I am loathed to say it but imaging the underlining plot of Harry potter and the order of the phoenix and you will have an idea of who I picture the reasoning behind the Jedi and sith in the movie except it is hearing the prophecy for the first time and not a copy of it.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-06-16 04:11am

Ok, this is just my two cents but here it goes...my interpetation of the 'prophecy'.

I dont think there was one.

Oh i think someone made a prophecy about the Dark Side growinga nd a Chosen One coming to defeat it...i just get the impression there were a lot of 'Chosen Ones' before Anakin, none of them too up to snuff.

The way Yoda and Mace so casually dismissed this, and the way Qui Gon was so instantly convinced, all gave me the impression that they'd all seen Chosen Ones before...think of the "There is no spoon" scene from the Matrix.

Anyway, as it turned out, Anakin wasnt the Chosen One. I think, because there isnt a Chosen One it's just an old Jedi myth, a story probably from the darker times of the Sith Empire when the Jedi looked like they were about to bite it, and so he cant be the Chosen One cause there is no such thing.

I think that Anakin was indeed created by the Force, who knows why? I dont think it matters. In fact i'm willing to bet other 'Force Babies' have been born before, it's probably an anomoly in the Force like a hiccup or when some idiot savant is born who cant write hsi own name but can do quantum physics like it's natural to him. In that sense, Anakin is just a Force Savant, no more special than that guy from Shine just with a cooler talent.

Thats an incredibly pesimistic view, of course. Usually i get the impression from movies that their prophecies are supposed to be real but i got a vibe, especially from ROTS, that Lucas is trying to say that isnt the case. One instance i felt this was when Obi says "You're supposed to be the Chosen One...etc, etc" and i thought, hmm thats odd, well yeah he was...and thus he WAS supposed to lead the Jedi out of darkness, but he DIDNT...so either the prophecy failed, which kind of makes it no point in being a prophecy, or perhaps he was never the Chosen One.

Another theory that i had was one that presumed the prophecy is factual. Again i go back to the statement of Obi Wan...and i ask was Anakin supposed to be the Chosen One.

Maybe...or not.

When was this "time of darkness" supposed to come around? Never says does it. Gee, the Empire sure looks like a time of darkness to me, where the Jedi need to be led out of darkness and a balance needs to be brought to the force. And goody-good Luke was a way more beleiveable messiah than the whiny asshole Anakin.

Course thats a little more complicated and requires some more wrangling but it could still work.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-16 07:09am

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Ok, this is just my two cents but here it goes...my interpetation of the 'prophecy'.

I dont think there was one.

Oh i think someone made a prophecy about the Dark Side growinga nd a Chosen One coming to defeat it...i just get the impression there were a lot of 'Chosen Ones' before Anakin, none of them too up to snuff.

Remmember Joalee's "swirling force" story in KOTOR

18-Till-I-Die wrote: Thats an incredibly pesimistic view, of course. Usually i get the impression from movies that their prophecies are supposed to be real but i got a vibe, especially from ROTS, that Lucas is trying to say that isnt the case. One instance i felt this was when Obi says "You're supposed to be the Chosen One...etc, etc" and i thought, hmm thats odd, well yeah he was...and thus he WAS supposed to lead the Jedi out of darkness, but he DIDNT...so either the prophecy failed, which kind of makes it no point in being a prophecy, or perhaps he was never the Chosen One.

The prophecy said "bring balance to the force", it didnt say what part of the force, the Jedi were too numerous\stagnant & the Sith\ or other Dark Side user's were too few and too powerful.

18-Till-I-Die wrote: When was this "time of darkness" supposed to come around? Never says does it. Gee, the Empire sure looks like a time of darkness to me, where the Jedi need to be led out of darkness and a balance needs to be brought to the force. And goody-good Luke was a way more beleiveable messiah than the whiny asshole Anakin.

Course thats a little more complicated and requires some more wrangling but it could still work.

But Anakin did kill the Emperor and bring balance to the force, but Luke did rebuild the jedi so maybe there were two chosen ones?

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2005-06-16 07:34am

the .303 bookworm wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote: When was this "time of darkness" supposed to come around? Never says does it. Gee, the Empire sure looks like a time of darkness to me, where the Jedi need to be led out of darkness and a balance needs to be brought to the force. And goody-good Luke was a way more beleiveable messiah than the whiny asshole Anakin.

Course thats a little more complicated and requires some more wrangling but it could still work.

But Anakin did kill the Emperor and bring balance to the force, but Luke did rebuild the jedi so maybe there were two chosen ones?

"Two Chosen Ones" kindof an oxymoron. That'd only work if the prophecy was wrong or severely misinterpreted, since it's always the singular 'the Chosen One' and from the AOTC script:

MACE WINDU: Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

AFAIK, the prophecy was true, and Anakin was the Chosen One and did destroy the Sith and hence bring balance to the force. Luke wasn't the 'true' chosen one, just a factor in the real story of Anakin's fulfilment.

pskouson · Post by **pskouson** » 2005-06-16 10:22am

Winston Blake wrote:
MACE WINDU: Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

So the Jedi seemed to know 2 things: (a) The force was out of balance and needed to have balance restored, and (b) The prophecy's validity and interpretation were in doubt, at least by Windu and Yoda. Thanks for giving this quote.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-06-16 11:26am

Winston Blake wrote: "Two Chosen Ones" kindof an oxymoron. That'd only work if the prophecy was wrong or severely misinterpreted, since it's always the singular 'the Chosen One' and from the AOTC script:

Luke would be the Sons of Suns bit, with Anakin as the other son.

AFAIK, the prophecy was true, and Anakin was the Chosen One and did destroy the Sith and hence bring balance to the force. Luke wasn't the 'true' chosen one, just a factor in the real story of Anakin's fulfilment.

Well.......... I actually taken to believing that Luke Skywalker was the catalyst or the guide in Sons of Suns, whereas Anakin was the Doer or agent of change.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-16 01:40pm

This is based upon my interpretation of the novelization:

Late in the novelization, Yoda realizes that they never found the Sith because they were looking for someone who was creating darkness in the Force, just as the Jedi create light in the Force. The Sith were not doing that; instead, they simply fed off whatever darkness was naturally being produced by the people of the galaxy.

That is why the Jedi could not find them, and it is also why the Jedi were arguably unbalancing the Force. The Sith understood that the way to create darkness in the Force was not to do it themselves, but to create hate, hostility, anger, and aggression among the people of the galaxy. And the best way to do that? Obviously, a prolonged and destructive war.

Yoda realizes in the novel that even as the Jedi fought in the war, they were actually helping the Sith to make the Dark Side grow stronger.

So in a sense, the Jedi Order had to be destroyed in order to bring balance to the Force, because they certainly weren't going to unilaterally change their policies under Yoda's dogmatic leadership. But then, the Empire had to be destroyed as well, because both the artificial light of the Jedi and the natural darkness of the Empire were imbalancing the Force.

I'm not entirely sure how the Jedi went about "creating light" as opposed to simply using the light that was already there, but that's what the novelization says.