Battletech in World War I

[Sea Skimmer]

Mobility defeated these forts in OTL.

No it didn't. Paris was simply never assaulted, and the very essence of the Battle of Verdun was a seesawing frontal attack against the fortresses, which 20 million shells failed to destroy. In any case, mobility can besiege the defended cities, but the forts provided all around defence. However in 1870 it took 230,000 German troops to man the siege lines around the city, and even more men to guard the rear of those forces from attacks from the rest of France. This was with the Germans possessing far superior artillery and organization and training compared to French forces, advantages they do not have in 1914. On top of it, the area encompassed by the forts of Paris expanded significantly over 1870 and the artillery mounted by them has far longer range. That means even longer siege lines.

[Sea Skimmer]

I attributed it to Hitler's inadequecies, but it seems I stand corrected.

Hitler didn't ask for a specific size of weapon, he just asked for a gun which could defeat the deep bunkers of the Maginot line, and Dora is what Krupp came up with. The Allies meanwhile didn't build any ultra big guns in WW2, but they did come up with 12,000 and 22,000 pound armor piercing bombs, and even then some German U-boat pens (which don't have the benefit of being sunk into the ground like forts) survived direct hits from them. Concrete is a great equalizer in warfare.

While a Mech spearhead would tilt any trench situation into the hands of the one with the walkers, they don't carry enough to topple things like that. I was unaware the forts guarding Paris were that heavy.

Once trenches start getting dug, the mecha aren't going anywhere. The amount of earth men moved by hand in The Great War is simply absurd, and digging a ditch too wide for them to cross and with sides too steep to climb isn't going to be that hard. This assumes the mecha can traverse the moonscape of shell craters to start with, something most tanks couldn't do (this is why we have armored bulldozers and armored bridgelayers). As I've said, nothing in RL has matched the trench crossing ability of WW1 British heavy tanks, and yet the Germans could still stop them with trenches and other obstacles.

Meanwhile, once trenches get dug everyone has a nice line along which to pre plot artillery, and that artillery could be called down by front line troops launching colored signal rockets. No other communication needed. Also, since the mecha are in action from the start of the war, everyone has a lot more time to devise and produce dedicated anti tank ammunition and anti tank guns.

[Nephtys]

Mechs can climb up vertical inclines of 7-10 meters without barely any pause. Higher than that, then they'll have to use jump jets to clear. They're clearly superior in the all-terrain aspect than any ground vehcle we've developed in RL. And well, trenches won't get dug that means, if they aren't hampered by most obstacles. and quite frankly, WW1 ballistics tech won't be producing capable anti-tank munitions any time fast.

[Frank Hipper]

...and quite frankly, WW1 ballistics tech won't be producing capable anti-tank munitions any time fast.

Armor piercing shells date from the 1890's...

[FOG3]

2. Concession accepted. Most clan mech designs are energy heavy though, with projectile/missiles as secondary weapons.

I'll inform the Comstar units that they didn't really win by cutting off the Clan supply line, because they don't really need one that bad. *cough* Want to start explaining the fiasco at Tukayyid, in terms of their not being reliant on their supply line and ammunition weapons?

[Nephtys]

...and quite frankly, WW1 ballistics tech won't be producing capable anti-tank munitions any time fast.

Armor piercing shells date from the 1890's...

And those 1890's tech AP shells are effective against armor from beyond that Era? Okay. I need to call the pentagon and ask them to bomb any Iraqi museums, lest they have deadly antique AP shells.

Nephtys wrote: 2. Concession accepted. Most clan mech designs are energy heavy though, with projectile/missiles as secondary weapons.
I'll inform the Comstar units that they didn't really win by cutting off the Clan supply line, because they don't really need one that bad. *cough* Want to start explaining the fiasco at Tukayyid, in terms of their not being reliant on their supply line and ammunition weapons?

Comstar of course, was fighting a trial of refusal in a completely different situation, not rushing past some line of defenders to attack a fixed objective. Completely different circumstances. Plus, a bigger part of that fiasco was that Comstar learned to use their mechs better and clan honor rules against them. Neither of which is an issue here, really.

[Beowulf]

...and quite frankly, WW1 ballistics tech won't be producing capable anti-tank munitions any time fast.

Armor piercing shells date from the 1890's...

And those 1890's tech AP shells are effective against armor from beyond that Era? Okay. I need to call the pentagon and ask them to bomb any Iraqi museums, lest they have deadly antique AP shells.

WWI AP shells are really big: 12-14 in or so. This is in marked contrast to the 4.5 in AP shells we use today. WWI AP shells also have explosive payloads.

[Nephtys]

Bigger of course, is not better. A 14 inch naval shell or rail arty shell is good for very few things, mostly involving targets the size of battleships or small towns. Not exactly what you'd call anti-tank weaponry.

[Beowulf]

Bigger of course, is not better. A 14 inch naval shell or rail arty shell is good for very few things, mostly involving targets the size of battleships or small towns. Not exactly what you'd call anti-tank weaponry.

There wasn't much that was armored that was smaller than a battleship during WWI until the first tank came about. Hence, no need for anything smaller.

[Frank Hipper]

...and quite frankly, WW1 ballistics tech won't be producing capable anti-tank munitions any time fast.

Armor piercing shells date from the 1890's...

And those 1890's tech AP shells are effective against armor from beyond that Era? Okay. I need to call the pentagon and ask them to bomb any Iraqi museums, lest they have deadly antique AP shells.

To merely claim something is ineffective without giving a reason other than it's old is ridiculous.
To mock the date of armor piercing shells is fallacious in the extreme in light of your claim that WWI era ballistics could not produce anti-tank munitions.

Even a comparatively weak gun like the Russian Pattern 1892 8"/45 was capable of penetrating modern face hardened armor 7.2 to 1.8 inches thick, depending on range.

A powerful WWI era railroad gun like the British 13.5"/45 could penetrate anywhere from 12.2 to 17.3 inches of modern face hardened armor, and fire that shell to a maximum range of 37 kilometers, albeit with barrel-life shortening charges.
That performance comes from an un-capped AP shell, add 10-20% to it's penetration with a capped round.

Capped, armor piercing shells were available for guns of 47mm and up from the turn of the last century, as well.

[MKSheppard]

There wasn't much that was armored that was smaller than a battleship during WWI until the first tank came about. Hence, no need for anything smaller.

Don't forget the AP shell for the French 75, dating from 1910.

[Gunhead]

Aerotech ranges mean jack. They're purely game mechanics. When fighters are brought to normal BT maps, normal ranges apply.

Aerotech fighters still get slightly increased ranges against other aerospace fighters.

Let me make this plainly clear to all. Despite all of Painracks handwaning about the Mackie test, it proves nothing. I read (again) the account. We have a shell fired from a tank that hits the Mackie. First of it explodes on impact. The smoke is described as being intense. So that leaves us with HE, HEAT, HESH, APHE and HEDP. Then it's stated that it was an armour piercing shell.
So that would rule out HE, and HESH to some degree. Painrack claimed that the sensor operator made a mistake. Well what a load of bull. If he's responsible for assessing damage for those who are in the bunker, how the hell he doesn't know what type of shell was used. What is the fucking point of having a live fire test, if you don't know what type of ammunition is used. Tell you this too, it was no SABOT, they do not explode on impact.

-Gunhead

[MKSheppard]

Tell you this too, it was no SABOT, they do not explode on impact.

It was probably a test of new ceramics armor to resist HEAT; there's a fluff
piece I posted earlier about how the Mechs have recently switched from
ceramic armor to RHA Steel.

[Gunhead]

Here's another bit of information regarding WWI. From the German border it's roughly 350km to Paris. At 45km/h moving directly at Paris (in a straight line actually). It would still take the mechs little over 7 hours to reach it. 45km/h is to me a pretty good speed considering it's pretty close to top speeds of some heavier mechs, and even though we have to deal with clan idiots, I assume light mechs will do what they're supposed to and provide recon+flanking cover for the main force.

-Gunhead

[Antares]

...and even though we have to deal with clan idiots, I assume light mechs will do what they're supposed to and provide recon+flanking cover for the main force.

I thought the germans find a stock of Clanmechs and have to man the mechs themselves? Are Clanpilots included in this finding, i dont think so.

Let's suppose that a year before Arch-Duke Ferdy gets shot an assorted cluster of Clan Omnimechs, complete with blue-prints, repair equipment, extra weapons, blue prints, extra ammo AND loyal German pilots show up in Germany.

[FOG3]

Comstar of course, was fighting a trial of refusal in a completely different situation, not rushing past some line of defenders to attack a fixed objective. Completely different circumstances. Plus, a bigger part of that fiasco was that Comstar learned to use their mechs better and clan honor rules against them. Neither of which is an issue here, really.

Configuration B of the Turkina demonstrates that the Clans learned from their defeats on Tukayyid and other planets. The extended campaigns the Clans fought on Tukayyid placed great stress on ammo resupply efforts. In those thirty terrible days, many Clan units found their firepower significantly reduced through the failure of their supply system to provide them with sufficient ammo. Rather than beef up their logistical units, the Clans now field more 'Mechs equipped solely with energy weapons. The Turkina B mounts all laser weapons combined with a deadly accurate targeting computer.

Source. They hit their supply train hard, which was a key part of their strategy, and it’s not like the energy weapons don’t burn out.

One thing Gunhead appears to have missed is what tandem refers to. A tandem warhead is one that have multiple warheads inline. The point of this with use in modern shaped charges is to get around the ERA. Battletech doesn’t say anything about shaped charge from what I’ve heard. As they don’t use reactive armor I’d say that speaks volume’s about their fire control. I’d say that reaffirms, my theory about their tactics being to bludgeon off the armor and bigger hole mean more likely to hit that area again.

Now when that book was published, 1987, there was only the Merkava 1 &2, both of which use a 105mm cannon, weigh 63 tonnes, have a 900 horsepower engine, and a 60mm mortar. Their successors weigh 65 tonnes and the mk 4s 1,500 hp diesel weighs1.9 tons, with it’s entire power pack it only weighs 4.9 tons. The Merkavas are distinctive because they have an engine in front. As a matter of fact the Merkava 2 had only been in production for 4 years. Now it’s highly odd that they’d use an IDF machine instead of a much more numerous Soviet or American built machine. Especially as the rebels didn't steal Israeli blueprints. However Israel is dry and thus if they did have another dark age, theirs would probably be better preserved. Now if the “rebels” did steal Soviet AT weapon plans, they’d likely have at least an RPG-7 and that’d be the thing to worry about.

There’s a little problem though. A shaped charge’s penetration is a function of its caliber and a 105mm tandem RPG-7 shaped charge is capable of penetrating 750mm RHAe, not 330mm RHAe. That however is actually being nice, for the report from the sensor scientist did not say armor steel, he said “normal steel.” I find it somehow unlikely normal steel is better then RHA vs shaped charges. This throws into question if he even knew what he war talking about.

Now if it was an AP shell the obvious question is why, if this wasn’t rigged? Was not the supposed opposition using shaped charges, not ancient MBTs? Does it not seem odd that there was such interference from a “AP” shell, which is the only one that hit, that didn’t penetrate? Does it not seem odd that Ancient IDF Merkavas who have probably already been effectively been killed by time & wear and tear before Mackie was even conceived were used. Does it not also seem odd their computer control system was so messed up that only one glancing hit was scored?

Actually what’s to say the sensor scientist even got it right? How do we know what he saw wasn’t a 60mm HE round or illumination bomb, which RL Merkavas carry, from the onboard mortar? We have 1 verbal report from a scientist who works for the company that developed the sensors and his perception of what happened, not an authoritative report here. For that matter how do we know it was a clean hit right above the hip? That seems the perfect area for it to skip, sloped armor style, does it not? Afterall thanks to the “interference” they didn’t see it hit, they saw before and after, not what happened in between.

I however am not done here. Checking the readouts I found a rather interesting 100 ton Assault mech ie the Cudgel. Now if it wasn’t a issue of not being able to hit the same spot with their low intensity, low velocity, weapons why would a Mecha using machineguns be effective? For that matter, why do we have to assume their in universe “Merkava” is a fully functional, fully armed RL IDF Merkava just because it has the same name? Especially when you consider they call their Merkavas heavy tanks instead of MBTs.

I vote no confidence on the Merkava incident. It’s just a verbal report from an observer, it’s not authoritative, and there are things in there that are suspect and throw into question the interpretation BTechers want to use it for. If it was an official evaluation, it’d be different, but it isn’t it just a verbal report from a suspect non-objective observer. We don’t have to take Matrix canon about the machine’s being able to take down the modern military for a reason that’s quite similar to this.

[PainRack]

*pats Pain Rack on the Head*

You forget that in BTech, Ammo weight also INCLUDES the ammo feed system and ammo stowage.

Check the calc MK. See anywhere in the quote where tonnage came into play? Indeed, if tonnage came into play, my entire calc becomes wrong, because 20mm ammunition doesn't come in that weight carriage.(Thanks to Batman who alerted me to this)

EDIT: So the uber mech ranges come from HEX conversions (30m opposed to 500m). Well to me that's pretty much game mechanics. I didn't find any examples of fighters engaging ground targets from altitudes of 6km or to any range beyond those stated in BT, or any reference to that effect that mechs could fire back to such distances.

Aerotech fighters get longer ranges only because using them with 30m hexes would be kinda hard, specially when playing fighter to fighter. There are rules how to use aerospace fighters in BT scale. When doing so normal ranges apply.

-Gunhead

Why would this be "mechanics"? Need I remind you that your mech range also come from this "mechanic"? Otherwise, we would just take the Mech Targeting computers are optmised to engage at kilometers at face value already.

Your stance that in-game fluff is more consistent loses a great deal of weight when you actually look at the tech redouts, and realise that the writers can't be bothered to look up the numbers for the mechs inside. When you see three different weights given for the 400XL engine, and one mech that has been claimed as 80 tons with only 75 tons of weight allocated to it.

You are almost certainly going to going to claim that this is a mechanics issue. I'm going to counter with "If they can't be bothered to add up numbers pre-provided correctly and consistently, why the hell should we expect their made up garbage to be consistent either?"

Mind giving examples? Or are you referring to the mechsheets itself, which had been corrected in Erratas?

Furthermore, they still remain infinitely more consistent than say the Jade Falcon trilogy, which can't decide whether Dawn is piloting a Hellbringer or a Warhawk in the same chapter. Or say Grave Covenant which has Wolcott being a Nova-Cat world. Or maybe one would like the idiocy of how Hanse Davion and his clique can take an obstacle course and engage in markmanship training with a pistol against targets at over 100m and achieve groupings that should be frankly impossible to be canon instead?

Ever consider that in their mucking around the reason it's reliant on mass is just because they suck? That the idea intensity is good was lost some time ago? Thus they have junk for armor, junk for targetting and have went to trying to bludgeon it off? Thus bigger slow shells will cause more of the junk armor to crater/slough off giving a better chance of hitting that area again with their pathetic FC. Makes perfect sense to me, it just requires them to be idiots/ceased to have a clue. Use of a CPB ie the PPC as a major armament only goes along with this.

It doesn't mean a not backwards tech designed AP round won't punch clean through them. Where does it say everyone else who they cross over to has to share in their stupidity?

That's why we have silly things like the Mackie Trial run to tell us otherwise. Alternatively, we can dig up propgangda quotes. For example, Mechwarrior companion had this quote about how "comparing special ops soldiers to infantry was equivalent to comparing battlemechs against late 20th century tanks".

Battletech mech armor IS crap; look at the Fall Damage Calculations; they're armorwise equivalent to World War I tanks, and hence in danger from field artillery of the period.

Nope. The Fall Damage Calculations merely prove my point that MASS is the importance in doing ablative armour damage. The THEORY is that the advance in armour revolutionised weapons tactics, instead of designing weapons meant to penetrate armour, they instead opted for attempting to "slough" it off instead. That is the official line taken by FanPro, the problem is, there still exists no limits on what this protection entails to and last but not least, it conflicts with reality so badly that even after 7 years of working on this and the best efforts of Slacker, Big Steve and LC, we still haven't come up with any model for it that accounts for the inconsistencies. And of course, they threw in AP rounds just to complicate my life even further.

Actually, no, they're named "Heavy Machine Guns", which puts them within the 12.7mm to 14.5mm range.

Last I checked, HMG don't come in 500kg weight and don't expend 20mm rounds at a rate of 24 rounds per sec.(upper limit)

I recently watched a show, where US Marine M1A2 Abrams tanks, capable of 55 km/hour, trundled down the road to Baghdad in 2003
at a mere 24 km/h, and how it took them all day to move from their starting phase line to their ending phase line for the day, due to constant
fighting. Only an imbecile takes top speeds of vehicles and then assumes those speeds apply to long distance marches, of which the
Mechs would face; I wonder how those "muscle fibers" stand up to hour after hour after hour of relentless pounding and walking?

Remarkably well. While of course, max speed will never be the true speed of an army, in the weird world of Btech, mech actuators suffer from less wear and tear than tracks and rotors. We know from the Blakist invasion of Earth that the Sandhurst force operated for more than 2 days without logistic support and withdrew all the way from Sandhurst to Hereford while maintaining a constant rearguard action.

"Most pilots consider the Crab's armor protection acceptable, though the replacement of it's composite armor with the homogenous steel now used..."

This was with regards to the Ferro-fibrous composite, and its replacement with the more commonplace crystal aligned steel with boron nitrite as a second layer of armour. Of course, this description of mech armour still ignores the diamond interwoved fibres and other exotic materials involved in mech armour and its composite. You know, using quotes from LC is nice and dandy, but LC conceded this mistake around 3 years back.

Actually, in BTech, weights for ammo include the feed mechanism for the
weapon. And let us look at the claimed statistics; 150mm cannons firing
10 shots in 1 second? That would only be achievable on the weight class
of mecha if they were low velocity cannons, because the M1A2 Abrams
weighs 70 tons, yet it rocks back when it fires it's 120mm main gun; and
we don't see any Mechs falling on their backs when they fire their 150mm
ACs; so ergo, it must be a low velocity weapon; which also explains their
piss poor range and accuracy.

Considering that the gyro can handle 100 tons of moving mech and stability, that the Demolisher problem is with recoil, I don't see your point whatsoever. Ever heard of the "technology" wand?

I like it how PainRack continues to claim BT Machine guns are 20mm or more when their ammunition weight clearly puts them in the HMG range. At best, given that the ammo weights also include the weight for the ammo feed.
As for the AC calibres, if the AC calibres stated in the novels are correct that only supports that those guns are ridiculouly low-velocity thanks to the absence of the required recoil. Which would handily explain the abysmal ranges.
As for PainRack's 'It's the targeting systems! Waah!' explanation, why, pray tell, can said systems guide an AC/2 shell to that range but not an AC/20 one?
As for the armor resilience-one word. Dropships.
I rest my case.

1. I do note the ammunition weight problem.
2. What absence are you talking about? You mean the backblast and the visible rocking back of the Hunchback isn't recoil? Hey, what about when the Thor fired his autocannon in the MW2 movie? Or the quotes available from Operation Audacity about how Adam Steiner 3 Gauss rifles had a tremedous recoil? Unless of course, you once again wished to talk about what it SHOULD be vs what it IS. Considering that its impossible to quanitify the recoil of the weapons in the first place............
3. Ahem. Its not the targeting systems. Its the simulated environment of Btech and the TIMING factor. Again, these weapons has less than 1 second of flight time! Is anyone going to argue that the M-16 max range is only 500m because the simulation runs for less than a second? That's why the LRM can go out to 6km in AT. They have more flight time!(and before anyone talks about low muzzle velocity, YES, I know. Now shut up already:D)
4. As for armour resilience, one sentence. Dropship can survive a crash semi-intact. The Kentares invasion had a dropship crash entering the atmosphere, sufficiently intact that the gamer could recover supplies from it. We also have the Jade Falcon triology where a dropship lost its engines in the atmosphere and crashed, yet leaving its cargo intact enough to walk to the battle. Or are you going to equate taking out engines to armour=vulnerable?

Mech reactors do just fine operating straight for (at the very, very least) days/weeks without refuel or any kind of maintenance. I've never seen a single case ever of a mech 'running out of gas', even slinging hours and hours of non-stop laser fire. Non-issue.

ACTUALLY................... there is a limit. Not in terms of fuel which appear to live up to the hype of nearly limitless, but in terms of coolant. We don't know the limits but we do know that mechs have been knocked out of battle due to overheating and could be salvaged by the opponent later. Now, considering the mechanics of overheating and the speed at which mechs can be restarted, this most probably refer to a mixture of engine/computer damage delaying a restart or more likely, a mech that ran out of coolant. Ref coolant truck in TR 3026.

I agree. However, SoD does NOT require 'Mechs to have the absurd firepower that the Mechheads want them to. Until somebody can explain the range problem to me in a way that makes sense, I'll assume their ranges suck, until somebody explains the recoil problem to me in a way that makes sense I'll maintain their guns are low velocity, until someone can explain the armor problem to me I'll maintain BT armor sucks, especially Dropship armor, add to that the ammo weight problem...
I DO use the canon data. It merely makes no sense.

Actually, SOD does not require mechs to have the firepower advantage over modern tanks. Infact, they barely do. Their advantage comes in the form of energy weapons ONLY.
I already have the model. There are more than ample quotes. And BTW, I found your missing link....... well, something more to add to the pot that is.
From Starlord:
At 500m Dawn launched a spread of SRMs. A good hit at this distance would be pure luck,.....

Not conclusive, but honestly, the best I could offer with regards to mechs weapons having range outside of game value in novel fluff would be this.
From Starlord:
The SRM squads moved slower, unable to set up to fire until they were within 300 meters.
"Trane, I'm going to move down closer. This BattleMaster has two machine guns and you're going to need them. That looks like a battalion of bodies out there."
"Good idea. Let's concentrate on the SRM squads and knock them out before they get in range. Commence firing...NOW!"
Even in the daylight, belches of flame could be seen shooting out a meter from the muzzles of the machine guns."

I'll inform the Comstar units that they didn't really win by cutting off the Clan supply line, because they don't really need one that bad. *cough* Want to start explaining the fiasco at Tukayyid, in terms of their not being reliant on their supply line and ammunition weapons?

You mean like how the supply fiasco was mentioned in the various Clan sourcebooks detailing the battle as erupting in "Omnimechs could no longer reconfigure easily, requiring hours" and Elementals running out of SRMs only? How Clans like the Diamond Sharks and Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars remainding combat effective and taking out enemy mechs all the way till the end?
Or maybe you want to talk about how Ulric Krensky solved his supply line problem, by simply configuring all his Omnimechs to energy weapons and configuring Elementals for extended missions by removing their SRM packs, thus increasing their durability on the battlefield?(Clan Wolf Sourcebook)

Aerotech ranges mean jack. They're purely game mechanics. When fighters are brought to normal BT maps, normal ranges apply.

Aerotech fighters still get slightly increased ranges against other aerospace fighters.

Let me make this plainly clear to all. Despite all of Painracks handwaning about the Mackie test, it proves nothing. I read (again) the account. We have a shell fired from a tank that hits the Mackie. First of it explodes on impact. The smoke is described as being intense. So that leaves us with HE, HEAT, HESH, APHE and HEDP. Then it's stated that it was an armour piercing shell.
So that would rule out HE, and HESH to some degree. Painrack claimed that the sensor operator made a mistake. Well what a load of bull. If he's responsible for assessing damage for those who are in the bunker, how the hell he doesn't know what type of shell was used. What is the fucking point of having a live fire test, if you don't know what type of ammunition is used. Tell you this too, it was no SABOT, they do not explode on impact.

-Gunhead

Ahem. I claimed that the PENETRATION figures made by the sensor and communications PROFESSOR was in error. Way to create a strawman. You know, this bit found in the opening extract?

What follows is a transcript of a verbal report filed by Professor Htov Gbarleman, chief research scientist for Karena's Fiber Optics Interstellar, manufacturer of the BattleMech's sensor systems.]

Wait, maybe you don't read the begining and only read the extract in question. Then, maybe you would have noticed this

I watched as Colonel Kincaid used his sensors - my sensor

Hell, considering the vast vagueness of data in his testimonial, we could equally say that "blast interference" could had been a mistake from Htov Gbarleman statement.

One thing Gunhead appears to have missed is what tandem refers to. A tandem warhead is one that have multiple warheads inline. The point of this with use in modern shaped charges is to get around the ERA. Battletech doesn’t say anything about shaped charge from what I’ve heard. As they don’t use reactive armor I’d say that speaks volume’s about their fire control. I’d say that reaffirms, my theory about their tactics being to bludgeon off the armor and bigger hole mean more likely to hit that area again.

1. There are use of shape charges in Btech. They're the explosives that are placed at the knee joints to cripple them. A sucidal tactic, as the explosives involved are C-8 which is supposedly much more explosive power than C4(Slacker will have the approiate quotes) and as can be seen in the St Ives Compact, when militia members hugged the charges to the mech legs involved.

2. Your theroy is the same as mine, the only difference is that the armour protection differs.

There’s a little problem though. A shaped charge’s penetration is a function of its caliber and a 105mm tandem RPG-7 shaped charge is capable of penetrating 750mm RHAe, not 330mm RHAe. That however is actually being nice, for the report from the sensor scientist did not say armor steel, he said “normal steel.” I find it somehow unlikely normal steel is better then RHA vs shaped charges. This throws into question if he even knew what he war talking about.

And therefore, he left out a vital piece of detail. Assuming his data was accurate, he must had meant the penetration figures against contemporary armour instead, a common error since other literature regarding armour in Btech commonly refers to steel as opposed to the full exotic mixture.

I however am not done here. Checking the readouts I found a rather interesting 100 ton Assault mech ie the Cudgel. Now if it wasn’t a issue of not being able to hit the same spot with their low intensity, low velocity, weapons why would a Mecha using machineguns be effective? For that matter, why do we have to assume their in universe “Merkava” is a fully functional, fully armed RL IDF Merkava just because it has the same name? Especially when you consider they call their Merkavas heavy tanks instead of MBTs.

Impressive. You use a gladitorial mech to demonstrate contemporary design. Wonderful. You know what? I be sure to tell Hulk Hogan that he should sign up as an infantryman and go take down Osama Bin Ladin.

[Nephtys]

FOG3, by the way the Cudgel is hardly representative of battlemechs, being a home thrown-together gladiatoral machine in a tongue-in-cheek game, which is sent to Solaris, where custom designs often have plate metal bolted on as armor. Not exactly a military machine by any means, and at it's weight class for it's capabilities, it'd get laughed at by any real medium or heavy mech.

To merely claim something is ineffective without giving a reason other than it's old is ridiculous.
To mock the date of armor piercing shells is fallacious in the extreme in light of your claim that WWI era ballistics could not produce anti-tank munitions.

Even a comparatively weak gun like the Russian Pattern 1892 8"/45 was capable of penetrating modern face hardened armor 7.2 to 1.8 inches thick, depending on range.

A powerful WWI era railroad gun like the British 13.5"/45 could penetrate anywhere from 12.2 to 17.3 inches of modern face hardened armor, and fire that shell to a maximum range of 37 kilometers, albeit with barrel-life shortening charges.
That performance comes from an un-capped AP shell, add 10-20% to it's penetration with a capped round.

Capped, armor piercing shells were available for guns of 47mm and up from the turn of the last century, as well.

Maybe I should clarify. They wouldn't produce GOOD anti tank munitions. There's more to it than just penetration, right? There's accuracy, ease of use, ease of transport, rate of fire, et cetera. I have no doubt a railroad gun can kill any tank about, but would it be used against a tank? Certainly not. These weapons were not designed nor would that effective against killing a modern tank, compared to say... a HEAT warhead guided missile, wouldn't you say? Again, the fallacy is here with your claim. Sure, a nuclear bomb is a more powerful anti-tank weapon than a hellfire, and it's from 1945. But is it better? Certainly not.

@FOG3
My apologies about Turkayyid and Comstar. Sure, the clans have a high stupidity quotient, as required by narrative. Supply lines cut? That's the benefit of Omnimechs. Boom. Replace AC5 with a couple of medium lasers. Go back out there.

@Gunhead
Since when are you the authorative figure on what game mechanics work and what don't? If weapon X reaches out farther than it does in AT2 than ground BT, it makes sense that it's capable of going that far. Unless you're going to make the claim that bullets travel slower when close to the ground?

[Antares]

I also have to state that this, "picking the lowest value" from game mechanics and real life isnt consistent.

One time the upper limit of mech weapon range is based on game mechanics (=600m), next time another limitation is based on reallife, like fuel, recoil of ACs and suchlike.

One should either use realife OR game mechanics and not mixing them for supporting the things which suites one better.

[FOG3]

Nope. The Fall Damage Calculations merely prove my point that MASS is the importance in doing ablative armour damage. The THEORY is that the advance in armour revolutionised weapons tactics, instead of designing weapons meant to penetrate armour, they instead opted for attempting to "slough" it off instead. That is the official line taken by FanPro, the problem is, there still exists no limits on what this protection entails to and last but not least, it conflicts with reality so badly that even after 7 years of working on this and the best efforts of Slacker, Big Steve and LC, we still haven't come up with any model for it that accounts for the inconsistencies. And of course, they threw in AP rounds just to complicate my life even further.

It seems more parsimonious to just declare they made a wrong turn somewhere, and kept intensity rather constant not understanding its value. It's not like people are omniscient atomatically seeing all the pathways, and they have been basically just users. Thus bigger club, bigger hole, more likely to hit again with cursed targetting system. The tandem being likely to get a critical points to it being they can damage the area of armor, but can't hit it again easily thus end up practically bludgeoning all the armor off the vehicle instead of *bang* *bang* *BOOM* with their munitions. The depictions in the MW3 & MW4 intro movies do seem to go along with this.

Ahem. I claimed that the PENETRATION figures made by the sensor and communications PROFESSOR was in error. Way to create a strawman. You know, this bit found in the opening extract?

What follows is a transcript of a verbal report filed by Professor Htov Gbarleman, chief research scientist for Karena's Fiber Optics Interstellar, manufacturer of the BattleMech's sensor systems.]

Wait, maybe you don't read the begining and only read the extract in question. Then, maybe you would have noticed this

I watched as Colonel Kincaid used his sensors - my sensor

Hell, considering the vast vagueness of data in his testimonial, we could equally say that "blast interference" could had been a mistake from Htov Gbarleman statement.

He could have thought the mortar fired 60mm shaped charges, like the M-72, which have that kind of penetration, but it was actually just a straight HE round like those commonly carried. Or *gasp* it could have been a illumination bomb.

Look at it. There's nothing right above the hip, it being a shot the clipped/skipped the Mackie would seem right. It's not like it says it took it solidly in the chest or anything.

1. There are use of shape charges in Btech. They're the explosives that are placed at the knee joints to cripple them. A sucidal tactic, as the explosives involved are C-8 which is supposedly much more explosive power than C4(Slacker will have the approiate quotes) and as can be seen in the St Ives Compact, when militia members hugged the charges to the mech legs involved.

I seem to remember though being simply IEDs satchel charge style that they lodged in the joint and set off. A shaped charge and a HE charge are a little different in how they operate. You have a quote pointing to them actually being shaped, metallic plasma jet emitting shaped charges?

There’s a little problem though. A shaped charge’s penetration is a function of its caliber and a 105mm tandem RPG-7 shaped charge is capable of penetrating 750mm RHAe, not 330mm RHAe. That however is actually being nice, for the report from the sensor scientist did not say armor steel, he said “normal steel.” I find it somehow unlikely normal steel is better then RHA vs shaped charges. This throws into question if he even knew what he war talking about.

And therefore, he left out a vital piece of detail. Assuming his data was accurate, he must had meant the penetration figures against contemporary armour instead, a common error since other literature regarding armour in Btech commonly refers to steel as opposed to the full exotic mixture.

Or he screwed up on what the mortar was firing, and it even being a clean hit is inconclusive. I know someone online who claimed to be a Marine and indicated they'd seen a LAV survive getting hit by a RPG-7. If that was true it certainly doesn't mean a LAV is designed to shrug off RPGs.

I however am not done here. Checking the readouts I found a rather interesting 100 ton Assault mech ie the Cudgel. Now if it wasn’t a issue of not being able to hit the same spot with their low intensity, low velocity, weapons why would a Mecha using machineguns be effective? For that matter, why do we have to assume their in universe “Merkava” is a fully functional, fully armed RL IDF Merkava just because it has the same name? Especially when you consider they call their Merkavas heavy tanks instead of MBTs.

Impressive. You use a gladitorial mech to demonstrate contemporary design. Wonderful. You know what? I be sure to tell Hulk Hogan that he should sign up as an infantryman and go take down Osama Bin Ladin.

Solaris is mecha vs mecha for mecha from what I've heard. Therefore a Solaris mecha that bothers to have 10 machine guns points to machineguns being effective. Why pray tell would they bother having them in their gladitorial combat if they aren't worth zilch vs a mech? Afterall unlike a combat unit he doesn't have to be shooting up the infantry with them does he?

[Frank Hipper]

Maybe I should clarify. They wouldn't produce GOOD anti tank munitions. There's more to it than just penetration, right? There's accuracy, ease of use, ease of transport, rate of fire, et cetera.

Maybe you should concede that by WWI ordnance producers not only could, but were producing armor piercing ammunition, had been for some time, and not try and move the goalposts.

I have no doubt a railroad gun can kill any tank about, but would it be used against a tank? Certainly not. These weapons were not designed nor would that effective against killing a modern tank, compared to say... a HEAT warhead guided missile, wouldn't you say?

You're muddying the issue with what would be done today, what is understood to be effective agaisnt tanks today, and your ill-informed and self-contradictory opinion on what is effective. In one sentence you say a heavy shell can kill any tank, in the next you say they wouldn't be, with the qualifier of comparing one to a modern HEAT missile, which is it?

HEAT warheads punch needle thin jets of hot gas through armor to defeat modern "Chobham" type armors, early armor piercing rounds used a combination of kinetic energy and shearing forces to defeat face hardened steel armor. While a modern tank would offer varying protection against smaller APC rounds of WWI, depending on their size, against a 1400 pound shell striking at 1850 fps they would offer virtually nothing in the way of protection.

Be that as it may, however, my stance is that individual targetting is not relevant when guns like this are used in the artillery barrages of the sort seen in WWI, and the special circumstances of this scenario would require a more intensive barrage fired into a smaller target area than any seen in WWI in the first place.

Again, the fallacy is here with your claim. Sure, a nuclear bomb is a more powerful anti-tank weapon than a hellfire, and it's from 1945. But is it better? Certainly not.

You should spend some time reviewing what it is I claim, and what the word fallacy means.

[The Dark]

It's possible to put Long Tom on a 'Mech. "Generally mounted only in vehicles, but sometimes in BattleMechs..." (BMR pg.123)

How the fuck many tons does that take?!?!

*Begins taking notes for the Mk2 Landmaster megatank*

I was a bit off . Long Tom won't fit on a 'Mech, but Thumper or Arrow IV will, and an assault 'Mech could theoretically carry two of either or one of each. Sniper can also be mounted, but any 'Mech will be six crit slots short of mounting Long Tom. Tanks can easily carry Long Tom, since they don't have crit slots, and just need the 30 tons of capacity.

Actually, SOD does not require mechs to have the firepower advantage over modern tanks. Infact, they barely do. Their advantage comes in the form of energy weapons ONLY.

"They [BattleMechs] are faster, more maneuverable, better armored, and more heavily armed than any other combat unit. Equipped with particle projector cannons, lasers, rapid-fire autocannons and missiles, these behemoths pack enough firepower to flatten everything but another 'Mech." - BMR, page 7. By canon literature, they do have a firepower advantage.

[Batman]

"They [BattleMechs] are faster, more maneuverable, better armored, and more heavily armed than any other combat unit. Equipped with particle projector cannons, lasers, rapid-fire autocannons and missiles, these behemoths pack enough firepower to flatten everything but another 'Mech." - BMR, page 7. By canon literature, they do have a firepower advantage.

Over contemporary BT tanks. Not real world ones. And ironically enough it is apparently still possible to build in-universe tanks that wipe the floor with 'Mechs.

[Batman]

One should either use realife OR game mechanics and not mixing them for supporting the things which suites one better.

You ARE aware that BT is fiction and therefore game mechanics are one of the sources of information about how they would perform in real life, yes?

[Batman]

Battletech mech armor IS crap; look at the Fall Damage Calculations; they're armorwise equivalent to World War I tanks, and hence in danger from field artillery of the period.

Nope. The Fall Damage Calculations merely prove my point that MASS is the importance in doing ablative armour damage.

It doesn't work like that in the real world and you know it. An M1 falling that distance might kill the crew, shred the transmission, and shake lose all of the equipment but it wouldn't do dick to its armour.

Actually, no, they're named "Heavy Machine Guns", which puts them within the 12.7mm to 14.5mm range.

Last I checked, HMG don't come in 500kg weight and don't expend 20mm rounds at a rate of 24 rounds per sec.(upper limit)

HMG don't have a range of 90m, either. Not that BT MG are 20mm but you already know that.
24 round/sec is nothing much, btw. Does the term Vulcan cannon mean anything to you?
Which, incidentally, still weighs less than a BT MG

2. What absence are you talking about? You mean the backblast and the visible rocking back of the Hunchback isn't recoil?

No, I mean the Mech not toppling over when it does fire that thing. And don't you dare bring up the gyro.

Unless of course, you once again wished to talk about what it SHOULD be vs what it IS. Considering that its impossible to quanitify the recoil of the weapons in the first place............

This is a real world vs. What it should be IS what it is. As the recoil isn't there, neither are the muzzle velocity, projectile mass, and possibly both.

3. Ahem. Its not the targeting systems. Its the simulated environment of Btech and the TIMING factor. Again, these weapons has less than 1 second of flight time! Is anyone going to argue that the M-16 max range is only 500m because the simulation runs for less than a second?

Giving MG bullets a MV of 90 mps. OOh I'm scared.
But hey, that ups the AC/20 to 270 mps. That's almost pistol bullet level!

That's why the LRM can go out to 6km in AT. They have more flight time!(and before anyone talks about low muzzle velocity, YES, I know. Now shut up already:D)

Shan't . Won't.

4. Or are you going to equate taking out engines to armour=vulnerable?

No, I'm saying that 30 tons of armour on something a coat of paint would weigh multiples of that on being adequate protection against 'Mech weapons doesn't exactly put those weapons in the 'Awesome' category.