Would you kill Younglings?

[Stravo]

The infamous scene in ROTS when Anakin walks into the Council Chambers and slaughters the Younglings got me to thinking. We know that the slaughter of the Younglings can partially be rationalized as a logical progression from a man that can slaughter a village of men, women and children out of rage. Coupled with that is the driving urge to protect Padme.

Now I ask you. Would you slaughter children - hell would you kill a single child to protect your wife/GF from a nebulous threat? If someone told you "Your wife might die in the coming weeks. Here's this eight year old, slit her throat and it won't happen." would you?

That scene suggests to me that Anakin had an evil side to him. He's not just misunderstood or confused. He slaughtered children in cold blood, children that he has seen in the Temple since they were babies. You can rationalize killing the adults all you wish for the attempted coup but how do you justify slaughtering children (what about the newborns in the temple? Did They meet Anakin's blade too because they were 'too dangerous') who posed little to no threat and almost certainly were not in on it.

Just as we can say that Anakin still had good in him when he turned as Vader I suggest that Anakin always had evil in him for being able to justify to himself the slaughter of children - Tuskin or otherwise.

[Darth Sephiroth]

The last part actually makes a lot of sense, though it can be argued that everyone has at least some evil in them.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Never.

Killing the youngling's in cold blood is (in my opinion) the point that Vader became the true face of Anakin, of his later deed's only BDZ'ing innocent planet's for terror purposes exceed's this atrocity.

[Ghost Rider]

If I was so far gone to think that all I needed was more power and knowledge, sure.

Course Anakin was not exactly thinking with a right mind, and really at that point his wife's continued health is an excuse he's making for himself.

Of course Anakin had an evil side to him...hell he took Palpatine's words of practically lying about a technique which that became a "Well, I'm sure we can find a way...we just need to get those pesky records". He had truly lost it all, and Padme's continued health was the last real good in him. Compassion for others? Flew out the window.

[Patrick Degan]

Slaughter children? Never.

[Darth Wong]

... Anakin had an evil side to him.

Sorry buddy, you know I have the utmost respect for you, but that so-called revelation handily wins the "Thank You, Captain Obvious" award for the week.

We've known that he had an evil side evil ever since we found out that he slaughtered Tusken women and children in AOTC. Anakin's character is one which is totally self-centred. Even though he speaks the right words about selflessness and principles, ultimately it's all about him. His dreams for the future, his goals for himself, his wife, his friends, etc. People who aren't in his little circle are means to an end.

He's not 100% bad; he has the positive traits of loyalty and courage, and on some level he understands the difference between right and wrong, but unfortunately, his analysis of right and wrong doesn't seem to occur until after he's already done something wrong. Once he's done too many bad things, he seems to give up on being a good person. And of course, Dark Side corruption can't help.

[Stofsk]

To protect my wife or girlfriend from a nebulous threat? No way.

Hell even if the threat were real... it really depends on the circumstances. Is this a gang of feral children who are between me and my girl? Is this a little Boba Fett who *will* try to kill me himself, regardless of whether he looks like a cute 10 year old? Am I in a third world shithole with child soldiers wielding AK47s and aiming at me? Or is this a daycare center that I have to bomb just for the hell of it?

Given the meaning behind your opening post, I assume you mean "Would you slaughter helpless kids in cold blood" which I give a resounding no. If I were, I would hate myself, my girl would hate me, society would hate and punish me, and I would only lose the girl in the end anyway - which makes doing the action a waste in more ways than one.

[Stravo]

... Anakin had an evil side to him.

Sorry buddy, you know I have the utmost respect for you, but that so-called revelation handily wins the "Thank You, Captain Obvious" award for the week..

No offense at all. Its just that we usually discuss the good in Anakin and how he is redeemed I just thought it would be nice to remind people of the choices he made that we would find absoluetly repugnant. He doesn't just have an evil side to him like a normal person does. You or I might do something nasty or bad like lie to a friend or hurt a loved one but what he does is truly evil. Hitler evil not just a little devil on his shoulder.

[FTeik]

Why are Anakin's actions evil?

After all by killing the younglings he caused them to become "one with the Force" as Yoda described it, so he should feel good, since he did them a favour. Hell, i wish the little green troll would have been there, when the clone-troopers invaded the temple so Anakin could have shoved Yoda's own words down his throat.

Seriously, Anakin has made his pledge of allegiance. He is a Sith now and the Jedi are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the younglings as children he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Palpatine and Anakin to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the GFFA and the Jedi are aware of similar concepts).

Aside from that, for him the threat to his wifes live isn't nebulous, it is very real. Anakin lives in a world were mysterious powers exists, where you can see the future and where dreams (or nightmares) can become true. The tragic part is, that - like in the story of Oedipus - his actions to prevent this outcome are the cause of Padme's death. Here we are looking at the mystical element of the self-fullfilling prophecy.

[Patrick Degan]

Seriously, Anakin has made his pledge of allegiance. He is a Sith now and the Jedi are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the younglings as children he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Palpatine and Anakin to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the GFFA and the Jedi are aware of similar concepts).

Let's play a little word-substitution game, shall we:

Seriously, Heinrich has made his pledge of allegiance. He is an American now and the Germans are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the little German children huddled together in all those village schoolhouses he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Eisenhower and Heinrich to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the United States Army and Nazi Germany are aware of similar concepts).

[The Grim Squeaker]

Seriously, Anakin has made his pledge of allegiance. He is a Sith now and the Jedi are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the younglings as children he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Palpatine and Anakin to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the GFFA and the Jedi are aware of similar concepts).

Let's play a little word-substitution game, shall we:

Seriously, Heinrich has made his pledge of allegiance. He is an American now and the Germans are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the little German children huddled together in all those village schoolhouses he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Eisenhower and Heinrich to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the United States Army and Nazi Germany are aware of similar concepts).

What if they had been hitler clones (Boys from brazil)?,
given time they would have become a threat.

However in Anakin's case I would have taken the younglings in for "re-education" rather than kill them.

[NecronLord]

<Snip>

Irrelevent. I would have already excecuteded Palpatine for daring to lie to me about knowing Plagueis' secrets. Oh. And for the evident High Treason. As Anakin would have, if he'd been even vaguely smart. Bam. Prophecy fulfilled with miminal bloodshed. And he gets to keep Padme.

[NecronLord]

I will also note, Stravo, that Lucas, in inimitable style, claims that Vader was in some way posessed by the Dark Side when he was a Sith Lord, and the crimes of Darth Vader are not undertaken with free will. Hence why Anakin's force ghost is young-Hayden in the DVDs. The good man that was Anakin really did die, the momenthe saw Palpatine on the floor.

Thankfully, such directorial bull is not canon until it gets put in the canon materials.

[Noble Ire]

I will also note, Stravo, that Lucas, in inimitable style, claims that Vader was in some way posessed by the Dark Side when he was a Sith Lord, and the crimes of Darth Vader are not undertaken with free will. Hence why Anakin's force ghost is young-Hayden in the DVDs. The good man that was Anakin really did die, the momenthe saw Palpatine on the floor.

Thankfully, such directorial bull is not canon until it gets put in the canon materials.

What exactly is wrong with this explanation? True its not like when Anakin killed Mace, he was suddenly possessed by a sith ghost or something, but I really dont buy that Anakin devolves into child slaughtering, friend-killing agent of evil, and yet he is still completely the same person, with the same moral and logical elements in his mind all in focus. Really, if that was the case, I would severely doubt his redemption on any scale. It is far more likely that Palpatine, taking adavantage of Anakin's phsycological weakness post-Mace, turned his Sith domination on full power and began to shape Anakin even more to his will, thus the "possession" of sorts. Anakin still sees all that he is doing, thinks about it, and could stop it if he really, really tried (ROTJ) but his mind is so twisted by Palpatine that the blame cannot completely fall upon him. I think this is what Lucas is trying to relate.

[Stravo]

I will also note, Stravo, that Lucas, in inimitable style, claims that Vader was in some way posessed by the Dark Side when he was a Sith Lord, and the crimes of Darth Vader are not undertaken with free will. Hence why Anakin's force ghost is young-Hayden in the DVDs. The good man that was Anakin really did die, the momenthe saw Palpatine on the floor.

Thankfully, such directorial bull is not canon until it gets put in the canon materials.

What exactly is wrong with this explanation? True its not like when Anakin killed Mace, he was suddenly possessed by a sith ghost or something, but I really dont buy that Anakin devolves into child slaughtering, friend-killing agent of evil, and yet he is still completely the same person, with the same moral and logical elements in his mind all in focus. Really, if that was the case, I would severely doubt his redemption on any scale. It is far more likely that Palpatine, taking adavantage of Anakin's phsycological weakness post-Mace, turned his Sith domination on full power and began to shape Anakin even more to his will, thus the "possession" of sorts. Anakin still sees all that he is doing, thinks about it, and could stop it if he really, really tried (ROTJ) but his mind is so twisted by Palpatine that the blame cannot completely fall upon him. I think this is what Lucas is trying to relate.

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

[Crazedwraith]

I will also note, Stravo, that Lucas, in inimitable style, claims that Vader was in some way posessed by the Dark Side when he was a Sith Lord, and the crimes of Darth Vader are not undertaken with free will. Hence why Anakin's force ghost is young-Hayden in the DVDs. The good man that was Anakin really did die, the momenthe saw Palpatine on the floor.

Thankfully, such directorial bull is not canon until it gets put in the canon materials.

What exactly is wrong with this explanation? True its not like when Anakin killed Mace, he was suddenly possessed by a sith ghost or something, but I really dont buy that Anakin devolves into child slaughtering, friend-killing agent of evil, and yet he is still completely the same person, with the same moral and logical elements in his mind all in focus. Really, if that was the case, I would severely doubt his redemption on any scale. It is far more likely that Palpatine, taking adavantage of Anakin's phsycological weakness post-Mace, turned his Sith domination on full power and began to shape Anakin even more to his will, thus the "possession" of sorts. Anakin still sees all that he is doing, thinks about it, and could stop it if he really, really tried (ROTJ) but his mind is so twisted by Palpatine that the blame cannot completely fall upon him. I think this is what Lucas is trying to relate.

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

Well its not entirely without support. Remember luke's Line in RotJ?

"Its too late for me, my son. I MUST Obey my master"

Could imply some sort of force implanted domination over him.

[Crown]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

Well its not entirely without support. Remember luke's Line in RotJ?

"Its too late for me, my son. I MUST Obey my master"

Could imply some sort of force implanted domination over him.

How does this line help you? If the domination is ALL POWERFULL - as it would need to be to get Anakin off the hook - why is he calling Luke 'son'? Why is he lamenting that it is 'too late for him'?

[Noble Ire]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

No, what I'm saying is that Anakin fully opened himself up to the dark side so that he could save Padme, but when he did, Palpatine's domination twisted him to the point where he would do things far beyond what he would have done in his normal selfish mode (ie kill children in cold blood.) He opened himself to the dark side and killed Windu, those are his major crimes, but what he did after is more in suspect, more likely due more to Palpatine's domination than his own "deep seeded desires" or whatever.

[Crazedwraith]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

Well its not entirely without support. Remember luke's Line in RotJ?

"Its too late for me, my son. I MUST Obey my master"

Could imply some sort of force implanted domination over him.

How does this line help you? If the domination is ALL POWERFULL - as it would need to be to get Anakin off the hook - why is he calling Luke 'son'? Why is he lamenting that it is 'too late for him'?

Uumm did I claim it was all powerful? Obviously it wasn't becuase Vader did turn on Palpatine but it is possible Palpatine was mindfucking him to keep him inline, untill Anakin simple foumd the sheer will power to resist.

[Stravo]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

Well its not entirely without support. Remember luke's Line in RotJ?

"Its too late for me, my son. I MUST Obey my master"

Could imply some sort of force implanted domination over him.

Frankly I was hoping to hear a better explanation for that line in ROTJ. You have the fall of Anakin Skywalker being the result of a bad roll of the dice of a saving throw (to continue the RPG analalogy) instead of a free willed choice to be evil. I know which one I think is more tragic.

Why bother making their apprentice make a choice - Palpatine to Anakin "Anakin you MUST choose!" as he's being fried by his own lightning. In ROTJ "Take your weapon and strike me down with all of your hate." Every instance he wants his potential apprentice to join willingly.

NOT

Palpatine: "Hold on a second." *Palpatine waves his hand at Luke* "You will be my apprentice."

Luke: "No, I won't." *Palpatine waves his hand again*

Palpatine: "You will turn to the Darkside."

Luke: "Nuhuh."

Palpatine smiles and waves his hand again

Palpatine: "Eventually you will be mine, you can't keep rolling that well forever."

[Edi]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

No, what I'm saying is that Anakin fully opened himself up to the dark side so that he could save Padme, but when he did, Palpatine's domination twisted him to the point where he would do things far beyond what he would have done in his normal selfish mode (ie kill children in cold blood.) He opened himself to the dark side and killed Windu, those are his major crimes, but what he did after is more in suspect, more likely due more to Palpatine's domination than his own "deep seeded desires" or whatever.

Bullshit. Windu always treated Anakin like shit, and acted like a power hungry asshole who looked like traitor when viewed from the lens of Anakin's experience and Palpatine's insinuations. Palpatine had always been kind to Anakin, made himself a friend (though he used that friendship to foster anakin's negative traits and distrust of the Jedi), so when confronted with a situation where it's (from his pov) Padme's life at stake, and one or another from the pair of Palpatine and Windu a traitor, and Anakin already prejudiced against Windu, there is nothing really surprising about the outcome. This Dark Side domination shit is pure bullfuckery.

Edi

[NecronLord]

Well its not entirely without support. Remember luke's Line in RotJ?

"Its too late for me, my son. I MUST Obey my master"

Which he then demonstrates is untrue. Just like he did in the last film with his plan to destroy the Emperor. He's just talking about plain old loyalty and duress.

[Noble Ire]

Bullshit. Windu always treated Anakin like shit, and acted like a power hungry asshole who looked like traitor when viewed from the lens of Anakin's experience and Palpatine's insinuations. Palpatine had always been kind to Anakin, made himself a friend (though he used that friendship to foster anakin's negative traits and distrust of the Jedi), so when confronted with a situation where it's (from his pov) Padme's life at stake, and one or another from the pair of Palpatine and Windu a traitor, and Anakin already prejudiced against Windu, there is nothing really surprising about the outcome. This Dark Side domination shit is pure bullfuckery.

Edi

So what your saying is that if Palpatine, rather than putting Anakin on the spot the instant after he had killed on of the greatest Jedi in the order, and told hi he had to participate in an attack that very night or else he would not gain enough power to save Padme, he had instead waited until morning, brought Anakin back to his office, and made him sign a contract clearly outlining what he would have to do when Vader, Anakin wouldnt have had second thoughts?

"First Item: You'll have to kill jedi, lots of Jedi."

"Cool."

You'll have to kill unarmed children."

"Yes, kill the little piggies. Murder, he he he."

"Eventually, you be complacent in the destruction of whole worlds and species."

"Let the bastards burn. More power for me!"

"Oh, and you'll probably end up killing your wife. She'll probably end up joining them rebels in the Senate, or she might just piss you off."

"Mah, I could kill her. After all, she isnt the reason I turned in the first place after all, right."

[Cykeisme]

So, by that logic the reason Anakin turned is because he failed his saving throw against Mind Domination and not because he freely gave himself to the Dark Side?

I agree with you, Stravo. The "domination of Anakin's mind" is stupid.

It's obvious that Anakin accumulated Dark Side Points that exceeded half his Wisdom, thus giving the GM control of his character to take appropriate villainous actions that are in-character with his previous transgressions. The GM being Lucas, of course.

[Edi]

So what your saying is that if Palpatine, rather than putting Anakin on the spot the instant after he had killed on of the greatest Jedi in the order, and told hi he had to participate in an attack that very night or else he would not gain enough power to save Padme, he had instead waited until morning, brought Anakin back to his office, and made him sign a contract clearly outlining what he would have to do when Vader, Anakin wouldnt have had second thoughts?

"First Item: You'll have to kill jedi, lots of Jedi."

"Cool."

You'll have to kill unarmed children."

"Yes, kill the little piggies. Murder, he he he."

"Eventually, you be complacent in the destruction of whole worlds and species."

"Let the bastards burn. More power for me!"

"Oh, and you'll probably end up killing your wife. She'll probably end up joining them rebels in the Senate, or she might just piss you off."

"Mah, I could kill her. After all, she isnt the reason I turned in the first place after all, right."

Are you too damned stupid to understand what has been said in the thread so far? Mike's point about Anakin being totally self-centered is a very good argument for his free will choice. He realized he had fucked up when he helped Palpy kill Windu, but remember, he saw the whole Jedi Order as an obstacle to his plans for the future and his dreams, and he realized that by siding with a Sith Lord against a high ranking Master of the Council he could well expect to become a target for the Jedi with little chance of redemption. Add in his fear of the loss of Padme and his vindictive streak, it is not that much of a stretch that he would take the attitude of "As long as she lives, let the whole galaxy burn!". He already killed women and children once before, and the younglings are also part of an organization that he sees on some levels as the enemy, so why not do away with them?

Your Dark Side domination argument relies on a lot of assumptions that can in no way be inferred from anything we see in the movies. You need to go to second or hird tier sources to find anything even remotely credible and most of those are contradicted by what we do see on screen. The free will argument is much simpler, more logical and less contrived.

Edi