Would you kill Younglings?

[Drunk Monkey]

Yes I would, but only if I’m positively saving more people then I’m massacring.

[Noble Ire]

Your Dark Side domination argument relies on a lot of assumptions that can in no way be inferred from anything we see in the movies. You need to go to second or hird tier sources to find anything even remotely credible and most of those are contradicted by what we do see on screen. The free will argument is much simpler, more logical and less contrived.

Really? You claim onscreen evidence.
Give me an example. A piece of legitament evidence that your view is the correct one and that I am an idiot.

(Note: Vader's quote from ROTJ has already been stated, and would seem to support my suposition.)

[Edi]

Your Dark Side domination argument relies on a lot of assumptions that can in no way be inferred from anything we see in the movies. You need to go to second or hird tier sources to find anything even remotely credible and most of those are contradicted by what we do see on screen. The free will argument is much simpler, more logical and less contrived.

Really? You claim onscreen evidence.
Give me an example. A piece of legitament evidence that your view is the correct one and that I am an idiot.

(Note: Vader's quote from ROTJ has already been stated, and would seem to support my suposition.)

Yes, I do. We see Anakin slaughter women and children in revenge for the loss of his mother in AOTC. In ROTS, we have a case where Anakin demonstrably believes only Palpatine can teach him a power that would allow him to save Padme from what he fears will happen to her. The Jedi Order would kill Palpatine, hence would also kill Padme. He chooses to preempt that by helping Palpatine destroy the Order and goes with the clone troopers to kill the younglings.

You, on the other hand, are claiming brute force domination/mind control. Where's your evidence? The Vader quote from RotJ is not sufficient on its own, because Vader has displayed an agenda of his own already since RotS. Besides that, the kind of total mind control you are talking about also implies a far more detailed knowledge of the puppet's moment to moment situation than Palpatine has over Anakin. He only senses some form of danger to him, but has no idea what it is until he actually gets to Mustafar in person.

Edi

[Darth Wong]

This is a false dilemma. In real-life, you are influenced by your environment, your upbringing, and other factors beyond your control, but you can still make "free" choices in the sense that you are responsible for them. It would be the same with the Force; while the Dark Side might influence you, it does not control you. You ultimately still make choices. In ROTJ, Vader felt that he was too far gone, but as we eventually saw, he was incorrect.

[Trooper TK12746]

There can only be 2 Sith. So Palpatine and Anakin couldn't retrain the younglings as Sith. The younglings have spent their early years training to be Jedi, they are too indoctrinated with the Jedi's mantras and ideals to serve a Sith unless they are a Sith. If they survive, they will grow up and become threats to the Empire. The slaughter of the younglings is tragic, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes perfect sense.


The slaughter of the Tusken children also saves lives as those Tusken children will grow up and continue to be a threat to the rest of Tatooine's population. Although that wasn't Anakin's reason for slaughtering them.

[Noble Ire]

Yes, I do. We see Anakin slaughter women and children in revenge for the loss of his mother in AOTC. In ROTS, we have a case where Anakin demonstrably believes only Palpatine can teach him a power that would allow him to save Padme from what he fears will happen to her. The Jedi Order would kill Palpatine, hence would also kill Padme. He chooses to preempt that by helping Palpatine destroy the Order and goes with the clone troopers to kill the younglings.

You, on the other hand, are claiming brute force domination/mind control. Where's your evidence? The Vader quote from RotJ is not sufficient on its own, because Vader has displayed an agenda of his own already since RotS. Besides that, the kind of total mind control you are talking about also implies a far more detailed knowledge of the puppet's moment to moment situation than Palpatine has over Anakin. He only senses some form of danger to him, but has no idea what it is until he actually gets to Mustafar in person.

Your evidence is legitament, and I do not claim that Anakin was not predisposed to falling to the dark side because of his personality and his past. However, in none of that evidence is anything that proves my theory wrong. I'm arguing that Anakin's actions, while certainly not purely done on Palpatine's whim, can be attributed to Palpatine's influence. When Anakin fell under Palpatine's control, it is possible that he did not fully comprehend what he would have to do as a Sith, or that his mind was cloud from what he had just done. By the time he actually attacked the temple, he was already Vader, and Palpatine's control had been set. Anakin is crying as he slaughters the youngllings, perhaps a subconcious admonition of what he is doing is wrong, but he is unable to stop because Palpatine has already fucked up his basic logical and moral bases. I'm not saying that Sidous is directly controling him all of the time (if he was, then yes, he would have known about Obi-wan immediately) just that when Anakin submits to him, Palpatine plants a seed of evil in his mind that he cannot resist; it grows on the selfishness and hatred already within him, amplifies it, and cancels out his moral resistance and compassion.

In any event, both my view and your are possible explanations, both supported by evidence that can be interprited in many ways, or evidence that seems contradictory when applied to other evidence. I'm saying that there is no definative onscreen proff, any evidence you use, I can use as well, just from a different point of view.

[Noble Ire]

This is a false dilemma. In real-life, you are influenced by your environment, your upbringing, and other factors beyond your control, but you can still make "free" choices in the sense that you are responsible for them. It would be the same with the Force; while the Dark Side might influence you, it does not control you. You ultimately still make choices. In ROTJ, Vader felt that he was too far gone, but as we eventually saw, he was incorrect.

I do not dispute this. I'm just saying that the degree of influence that the dark side had over Anakin (amplified by Palpy) id higher than some claim. What Anakin did was still evil, but by that time, his view of right and wrong had been altered to the extent that he didnt think what he was doing was evil, at lteast not until ROTJ.

[Edi]

There can only be 2 Sith. So Palpatine and Anakin couldn't retrain the younglings as Sith.

Says who? There can certainly be more than two, but it is always one master, one apprentice per occurrence. Nothing prevents there from being several masters if somebody's apprentice strikes out on his own. In a galaxy that big, there is room enough.

The younglings have spent their early years training to be Jedi, they are too indoctrinated with the Jedi's mantras and ideals to serve a Sith unless they are a Sith.

Then how did Dooku fall to the Dark Side, or any other Jedi who switched? They were all indoctrinated as part of their training, after all.

The slaughter of the Tusken children also saves lives as those Tusken children will grow up and continue to be a threat to the rest of Tatooine's population. Although that wasn't Anakin's reason for slaughtering them.

And Nazi Germany's actions saved Finland's independence in WW2, hence what they did was okay?

Here's a hint: Even if evil actions bring about some benefits to someone as an unintended consequence, it does not in any way, shape or form justify them.

Edi

[NecronLord]

There can only be 2 Sith.

This didn't stop Palpatine comissioning a horde of lesser dark siders. Nor did it stop Dooku training quite a cadre of non-Sith servants.

So Palpatine and Anakin couldn't retrain the younglings as Sith. The younglings have spent their early years training to be Jedi, they are too indoctrinated with the Jedi's mantras and ideals to serve a Sith unless they are a Sith. If they survive, they will grow up and become threats to the Empire. The slaughter of the younglings is tragic, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes perfect sense.

Yeah. If you accept the Sith point of view, which, frankly, you shouldn't.

The slaughter of the Tusken children also saves lives as those Tusken children will grow up and continue to be a threat to the rest of Tatooine's population. Although that wasn't Anakin's reason for slaughtering them.

Because of course, they're inherently evil, I'm sure.

[Edi]

Your evidence is legitament, and I do not claim that Anakin was not predisposed to falling to the dark side because of his personality and his past. However, in none of that evidence is anything that proves my theory wrong. I'm arguing that Anakin's actions, while certainly not purely done on Palpatine's whim, can be attributed to Palpatine's influence.

No doubt about that. Palpy played him like a finely tuned instrument.

When Anakin fell under Palpatine's control, it is possible that he did not fully comprehend what he would have to do as a Sith, or that his mind was cloud from what he had just done. By the time he actually attacked the temple, he was already Vader, and Palpatine's control had been set. Anakin is crying as he slaughters the youngllings, perhaps a subconcious admonition of what he is doing is wrong, but he is unable to stop because Palpatine has already fucked up his basic logical and moral bases. I'm not saying that Sidous is directly controling him all of the time (if he was, then yes, he would have known about Obi-wan immediately) just that when Anakin submits to him, Palpatine plants a seed of evil in his mind that he cannot resist; it grows on the selfishness and hatred already within him, amplifies it, and cancels out his moral resistance and compassion.

I'm more inclined to see it as Anakin choosing, from his own selfis h pov, the lesser of two evils, i.e. what hurts him least and let everything else burn, even if some of that also hurts him. Just not as much. This clarifies your point enough that it is completely feasible to reconcile our views more or less instead of leaving a big disagreement, but your earlier posts lacked that detail.

Edi

[Noble Ire]

I'm more inclined to see it as Anakin choosing, from his own selfis h pov, the lesser of two evils, i.e. what hurts him least and let everything else burn, even if some of that also hurts him. Just not as much. This clarifies your point enough that it is completely feasible to reconcile our views more or less instead of leaving a big disagreement, but your earlier posts lacked that detail.

I am glad I was able to finally represent my view understandably. It does take me a while typically.

[Trooper TK12746]

There can only be 2 Sith.

This didn't stop Palpatine comissioning a horde of lesser dark siders. Nor did it stop Dooku training quite a cadre of non-Sith servants.

But they had all turned to the darkside prior to their hiring, were untrained when they were first found, or were having doubts in the Jedi Order.

So Palpatine and Anakin couldn't retrain the younglings as Sith. The younglings have spent their early years training to be Jedi, they are too indoctrinated with the Jedi's mantras and ideals to serve a Sith unless they are a Sith. If they survive, they will grow up and become threats to the Empire. The slaughter of the younglings is tragic, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes perfect sense.
Yeah. If you accept the Sith point of view, which, frankly, you shouldn't.

I didn't say I did, I am saying how it would go in the Sith's best interests.

The slaughter of the Tusken children also saves lives as those Tusken children will grow up and continue to be a threat to the rest of Tatooine's population. Although that wasn't Anakin's reason for slaughtering them.
Because of course, they're inherently evil, I'm sure. Rolling Eyes

Culturally, their right of initiation is to attack settlers and farmers and/or steal their property. Being a threat doesn't mean your evil. However, Anakin would not have the time to stay and reeducate all those kids so they fit in with the rest of the population on Tatooine. Plus he had just seen his mother die from torture. YOu would be enraged too if you saw that.

[Noble Ire]

But they had all turned to the darkside prior to their hiring, were untrained when they were first found, or were having doubts in the Jedi Order.

Certainly, Dooku for instance was alienated with the order before his turning, but he was a Jedi Master, and an old one at that. He obviously would have ingrained fears about the dark side, but in the end, it didnt stop him, did it?

[NecronLord]

You would be enraged too if you saw that.

The Minbari in Babylon Five had their beloved leader killed by an idiot human captain, therefore their effort to eradicate the entire human race was morally just?

Anger does not ethics make.

[FTeik]

Seriously, Anakin has made his pledge of allegiance. He is a Sith now and the Jedi are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the younglings as children he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Palpatine and Anakin to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the GFFA and the Jedi are aware of similar concepts).

Let's play a little word-substitution game, shall we:

Seriously, Heinrich has made his pledge of allegiance. He is an American now and the Germans are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the little German children huddled together in all those village schoolhouses he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Eisenhower and Heinrich to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the United States Army and Nazi Germany are aware of similar concepts).

Americans = evil Sith?
Germans = "good" Jedi?

I wasn't aware, that Germans and Americans are on opposite sites of a moral spectrum (contrary to Jedi and Sith), making them natural enemies.

[Trooper TK12746]

Certainly, Dooku for instance was alienated with the order before his turning, but he was a Jedi Master, and an old one at that. He obviously would have ingrained fears about the dark side, but in the end, it didnt stop him, did it?

He was old, and therefore had time to become alienated with the Order, but there would be no Order for the younglings to become alienated with. It was already as good as gone. And given Dooku's bigotry and ruthlessness, he obviously wasn't the disallusioned ex-jedi everyone thought he was (at first).

he Minbari in Babylon Five had their beloved leader killed by an idiot human captain, therefore their effort to eradicate the entire human race was morally just?
Anger does not ethics make

I didn't say they did, I was pointing out that Anakin's did not indicate he was evil, they showed that he was human like the rest of us. And being tortured to death by a small collective is different then being assasinated by a rogue individual.

[NecronLord]

I wasn't aware, that Germans and Americans are on opposite sites of a moral spectrum (contrary to Jedi and Sith), making them natural enemies.

Because you are 'a natural enemy' means you much prey upon children. Right.

Fact is, the Sith are evil. Their crimes are inexcuseable.

[NecronLord]

I didn't say they did, I was pointing out that Anakin's did not indicate he was evil, they showed that he was human like the rest of us. And being tortured to death by a small collective is different then being assasinated by a rogue individual.

I rather like to keep 'human like the rest of us' away from being an excuse for being a genocidal ass responsible for the deaths of countless billions. The rest of us have not done that.

[Trooper TK12746]

I was only talking about the incident with the Tuskens. And I think many of us might have done it if we were brought up under the same circumstances Anakin was (and exposed to the same events).

[NecronLord]

Yes. We would. It would still be an inexcuseable and evil act, and the jedi should have defrocked him immediately upon learning of it.

Incidentally, please shorten your sig. It is far too tall. I'd suggest simply removing the line breaks.

[Trooper TK12746]

I will not dispute that. Did the Jedi ever learn about it?

Abou the sig, will do.

[FTeik]

I wasn't aware, that Germans and Americans are on opposite sites of a moral spectrum (contrary to Jedi and Sith), making them natural enemies.

Because you are 'a natural enemy' means you much prey upon children. Right.

Fact is, the Sith are evil. Their crimes are inexcuseable.

It wasn't my intention to excuse them. I wanted to point out, that their actions were consequent (there we have that thinking in absolutes again).

[NecronLord]

I will not dispute that. Did the Jedi ever learn about it?

If they didn't, it was because of their own ineptitude. The most common interpretation I am aware of is that they glossed over it during the war.

[NecronLord]

It wasn't my intention to excuse them. I wanted to point out, that their actions were consequent

So what was the point of saying it? Sure, their killing younglings is consequent from them really disliking the jedi. It doesn't mean anything though.

(there we have that thinking in absolutes again).

The Sith are absolutely evil. There is a time and place for relitivism. Describing a sci-fi cult with 0 redeeming features is not it. There is nothing good about the Sith. Their every act is calculated to maximise suffering.

[Edi]

I will not dispute that. Did the Jedi ever learn about it?

If they didn't, it was because of their own ineptitude. The most common interpretation I am aware of is that they glossed over it during the war.

IIRC, Yoda sensed the event as it happened in AOTC, but didn't know what exactly caused it.

Edi