WoT meet Posleen

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Post by Enforcer Talen »

SylasGaunt wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:-sniffs- I swear, you people have no imagination at all.

I remember in book 5 rand forms a sheild that stops everything, specifically said. considerign he's fighting rahvin at the time, a mage who can do a might more damage then most armouries, channelers have at least some defense capabilities.
And? The smallest regular posleen troop formation would be easily more destructive than almost any WoT army. Of course there is the matter of:

a.) whether or not that shield blocks light, if not he still gets sawed in half by the first happy postie with a laser

b.) whether any of the asha'man present are strong enough to make one.

but, your assuming he is going to stand there for all the weapons of an army to shoot at him, which is really not what asha'man are good for. their super artillery in a medieval world, but they have to be more subtle against that kind of firepower.
Of course the posties have a lot better range than any archer.
use a weave of spirit, so that you arent worthy of people's attention, like a gray man. walk past sentries. use a weave of air for invisibility. there are prolly other ways to see a man, I'm not famaliar with the people their fighting, but there's likely a defense against it.
God-King saucer's sensors detect him, auto-target and fire.
then you can wander about. a little compulsion, and a commander throws away his forces. a tied off fireball weave, so you can launch heat waves like a nuke, and then travel away before they reply. there are *so* many weaves you can use against a modern society.
Where has ANY fire weave matched a nuke? Please point me towards where this has ever occured.

And Posleen God-Kings already spend their troops like water.

And this is of course assuming he doesn't run afoul of a five percenter and get swatted by an anti-starship plasma cannon.
as I have said, I havent read the posleen, otherwise I would be giving more specific strategies. how does a god king saucer sensor work? bloody silly name, btw. there's usually a weave to stop that sort of thing, I used to write at a wot/modern world combo, and we came up with all kinds of tricks. we are of couse assuming the asha'man know what their facing - otherwise they have a screaming fit the first starfighter thatcomes by.

I suppose book 1, lews therin melting the earth and making a mountain doesnt count? the typical asha'man doesnt equal the dragon, so I suppose it would be the exception. perhaps 'like a nuke' is an exaggeration, but a tied off fire weave can do damage like you would not believe.

in book 3, a weave was tied off that didnt just stay still, like a wall of air, but continued moving - it was when the black ajah captured the accepted and hit them with air continously, while not wasting much power at all. presumably, you could increase the power into it, and break bones, or, if your particularly strong (circle of 13 perhaps) use it to take out a ship or navy. lots of fun things you can do with tied off weaves.

you weave the air, and it punches. you can tie it off, and it keeps punching. aveindha didnt have to launch dozens of fireballs at the seanchan in book 8 - she could have weaved one fireball, and it launches, and tied it off, so new fireballs are generated. an asha'man could do similar with waves of heat or fire. approach enemy forces, weave a gateway for a quick escape, then weave the most powerful offensive thing you can do, and tie it off. it wouldnt do the damage of a nuke in the first wave, to be sure, but in the hundreth, or thousandth? and if you made repeating balefire, it would be even better. I am doubtful ship hulls would stop it - it cleaves through everything it comes across, including the defenses of cities in the age of legends.
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Post by haas mark »

SylasGaunt wrote:
verilon wrote:You avoided the Compulsion and Dreamwalking, it seems to me (or maybe you're still goin through the posts?). Compulsion is putting someone under their will, meaning that they can warrant the commanders/generals/whatever to fight amongst each other.
1.) How many Asha'man actually know how to do this? Compulsion is an ability for subtle moves and infiltration, not the wholesale destruction the Asha'man are trained for.
One on one. And although Asha'man may be trained for destruction, there are many forms of subtlety that are involved in battle. I thought oyu would have known that? Infiltration is always necessary, WoT or otherwise.
2.) We're talking about aliens here. Ones who DON'T speak the same language, and wouldn't understand any of the commands you gave them in the first place (provided while they don't find their head blown off by a hungry normal)
They don't have to communicate directly. In Book 5 (Fires of Heaven), Rahvin had control of Queen Morgase of Andor, and at one point had her wanting to come to him, but never had to actually speak to her.
As for Dreamwalking, Posties may not even dream for all we know, and if they do, consider:

1.) How many Asha'man do you think would actually be trained to dreamwalk? Remember that whole lesson the Aiel wise ones gave Egwene and co. about just how damn dangerous a practice it is?
Who can really say for sure? And it is fairly dangerous, as said in the Books, esp 3-5.
2.) If going into the mind of a human is dangerous what do you think it's going to be like with an alien?
Just as bad, maybe worse, maybe less. Can't say for sure.
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Post by haas mark »

As far as balefire, it wipes out whatever it touches /before/ the balefire actually hits.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

verilon wrote: One on one. And although Asha'man may be trained for destruction, there are many forms of subtlety that are involved in battle. I thought oyu would have known that? Infiltration is always necessary, WoT or otherwise.
And you keep from answering the question. When have we seen any mention of the Asha'man being trained in Compulsion?
They don't have to communicate directly. In Book 5 (Fires of Heaven), Rahvin had control of Queen Morgase of Andor, and at one point had her wanting to come to him, but never had to actually speak to her.
I'll have to check again but wasn't that just a side effect of the compulsion he was using to get her to rely on him more and more?
Who can really say for sure? And it is fairly dangerous, as said in the Books, esp 3-5.
I've never seen any mention of anyone running into any black-coats in the dream world, also anyone who actually knows what they're doing in there is exceedingly rare.
Just as bad, maybe worse, maybe less. Can't say for sure.
Especially when this aliens dreams are the sort of things humans would see in their nightmares.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Enforcer Talen wrote: as I have said, I havent read the posleen, otherwise I would be giving more specific strategies. how does a god king saucer sensor work? bloody silly name, btw. there's usually a weave to stop that sort of thing, I used to write at a wot/modern world combo, and we came up with all kinds of tricks. we are of couse assuming the asha'man know what their facing - otherwise they have a screaming fit the first starfighter thatcomes by.
Well it's a sensor suit mounted on a God King's 'saucer' (it's got a postie name but I'm not gonna even try remembering how to spell it). However it can pick up a variety of emissions. These same sensors instantly locate snipers once they fire and have the ability to auto-target and engage targets (such as plinking F-22s out of the air).
I suppose book 1, lews therin melting the earth and making a mountain doesnt count? the typical asha'man doesnt equal the dragon, so I suppose it would be the exception. perhaps 'like a nuke' is an exaggeration, but a tied off fire weave can do damage like you would not believe.
Lews Therin is abnormally strong period. And a tied off fire-weave isn't going to be anything the posties haven't seen before what with nukes, anti-matter and starship plasma cannons that can 'slag mountains'.

in book 3, a weave was tied off that didnt just stay still, like a wall of air, but continued moving - it was when the black ajah captured the accepted and hit them with air continously, while not wasting much power at all. presumably, you could increase the power into it, and break bones, or, if your particularly strong (circle of 13 perhaps) use it to take out a ship or navy. lots of fun things you can do with tied off weaves.
Well no circle of 13 here since it's all Asha'man. And I suppose it depends on whether or not that weave was actually 'attached' to anything, not to mention there's still the matter of laser weapons.
you weave the air, and it punches. you can tie it off, and it keeps punching. aveindha didnt have to launch dozens of fireballs at the seanchan in book 8 - she could have weaved one fireball, and it launches, and tied it off, so new fireballs are generated.
All tying a weave off does is keep it active.. her one fireball would have remained that way, I don't think it would have kept spewing out new ones or somebody would have been using this technique by now.
an asha'man could do similar with waves of heat or fire. approach enemy forces, weave a gateway for a quick escape,
Except you can't weave a gateway for quick escape without first spending time in the area IIRC.
then weave the most powerful offensive thing you can do, and tie it off. it wouldnt do the damage of a nuke in the first wave, to be sure, but in the hundreth, or thousandth? and if you made repeating balefire, it would be even better. I am doubtful ship hulls would stop it - it cleaves through everything it comes across, including the defenses of cities in the age of legends.
And how many Asha'man can you think of who know how to use balefire?

Besides city-killing is nothing new to the posties
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Post by consequences »

A God-King Saucer is referred to as a teneral.
The basic problem I have is that any Asha'man close enough to try to affect the outcome of any of the engagements would inevitably die in the nuclear detonations that served to end most of the major battles in the novel.
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Post by haas mark »

SylasGaunt wrote:
verilon wrote: One on one. And although Asha'man may be trained for destruction, there are many forms of subtlety that are involved in battle. I thought oyu would have known that? Infiltration is always necessary, WoT or otherwise.
And you keep from answering the question. When have we seen any mention of the Asha'man being trained in Compulsion?
When have we seen much else other than Dreamwalking and Healing being trained? Besides, sometimes they just learn the Talents, instead of having to be trained.
They don't have to communicate directly. In Book 5 (Fires of Heaven), Rahvin had control of Queen Morgase of Andor, and at one point had her wanting to come to him, but never had to actually speak to her.
I'll have to check again but wasn't that just a side effect of the compulsion he was using to get her to rely on him more and more?
Somewhat.....but she was strong-willed enought to break out of it....which would prove a problem for the Asha'man.
Who can really say for sure? And it is fairly dangerous, as said in the Books, esp 3-5.
I've never seen any mention of anyone running into any black-coats in the dream world, also anyone who actually knows what they're doing in there is exceedingly rare.
Black-coats?
Just as bad, maybe worse, maybe less. Can't say for sure.
Especially when this aliens dreams are the sort of things humans would see in their nightmares.
Huh? That came out kind of incoherent.

consequences: how close would be close enough? Also, if they *are* close enough, would the nuclear explosions be enought to kill the aloens as well?
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Post by consequences »

We're talking about a ground level nuke that took out most of the defending corps for starters, and repeated airborne detonations that knocked spaceships out of the sky for miles. Followed by four 100 kiloton airbursts that killed most of the population of the area, followed by intense stategic nuclear bombardment.
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And that means what in context....?
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Post by SylasGaunt »

verilon wrote: When have we seen much else other than Dreamwalking and Healing being trained? Besides, sometimes they just learn the Talents, instead of having to be trained.
We see people being trained in dreamwalking just not Asha'man, and when Rand visits the Asha'man training area it's never mentioned.

Somewhat.....but she was strong-willed enought to break out of it....which would prove a problem for the Asha'man.
Especially given that was one of the Forsaken.
Black-coats?
Asha'man.
Huh? That came out kind of incoherent.
Let me put it this way, your average God-Kings dream is a fiefdom built upon slaughtering and devouring his enemies.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

verilon wrote:And that means what in context....?
The Posleen took all that and KEPT COMING.
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Post by haas mark »

SylasGaunt wrote:
verilon wrote:And that means what in context....?
The Posleen took all that and KEPT COMING.
Ah. Okay.

Also, he is not bent on destroying everyone; that's prophecy and prophecy alone. We must assume this took place before the Last Battle, Tarmon Gaidin.
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Post by consequences »

Took all of that and kept coming in the untold millions.
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consequences wrote:Took all of that and kept coming in the untold millions.
In which case they would probably win. But like I said, you manipulate this to make Rand lose.
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

verilon wrote:
consequences wrote:Took all of that and kept coming in the untold millions.
In which case they would probably win. But like I said, you manipulate this to make Rand lose.
Wasn't it supposed to be Ashaman vs. Posleen. Also, nobody specified how MANY Posleen, minor problem.
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Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
verilon wrote:
consequences wrote:Took all of that and kept coming in the untold millions.
In which case they would probably win. But like I said, you manipulate this to make Rand lose.
Wasn't it supposed to be Ashaman vs. Posleen. Also, nobody specified how MANY Posleen, minor problem.
True, which means consequences is going to specify an insane amount.....but use the same amount of Asha'man, to be fair.
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verilon wrote:
Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
verilon wrote: In which case they would probably win. But like I said, you manipulate this to make Rand lose.
Wasn't it supposed to be Ashaman vs. Posleen. Also, nobody specified how MANY Posleen, minor problem.
True, which means consequences is going to specify an insane amount.....but use the same amount of Asha'man, to be fair.
Ah well. But I still say there have to be certain limits. I mean, even with 2000 Ashaman they can't survive high altitude irradiation or bioweapons. Though frontal assaults against them might not be effective. Maybe if you had a stealth nuclear warhead like in MGS...
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Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Ah well. But I still say there have to be certain limits. I mean, even with 2000 Ashaman they can't survive high altitude irradiation or bioweapons. Though frontal assaults against them might not be effective. Maybe if you had a stealth nuclear warhead like in MGS...
Maybe not, but long enough, I am sure, to try to retaliate.
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Post by consequences »

The original post said that the Asha'man are dropped onto Earth during the events of When the Devil Dances, and asked what effect they would have. Don't blame me if your favorite characters are dropped into a non-survivable situation.
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consequences wrote:The original post said that the Asha'man are dropped onto Earth during the events of When the Devil Dances, and asked what effect they would have. Don't blame me if your favorite characters are dropped into a non-survivable situation.
Okay. But the author of the post then knew that this was an unfair battle.
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Post by consequences »

No, the author of the post probably wasn't certain of the exact interaction between high-tech and WOT powers. He also probably hasn't read the first four chapters of Hell's Faire, the sequel to WTDD yet.
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consequences wrote:No, the author of the post probably wasn't certain of the exact interaction between high-tech and WOT powers. He also probably hasn't read the first four chapters of Hell's Faire, the sequel to WTDD yet.
That makes sense as well, but I think it best we stop speaking for the author.
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Post by consequences »

true, that's just my viewpoint, and what I would have done with a similar question on my hands.
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consequences wrote:true, that's just my viewpoint, and what I would have done with a similar question on my hands.
Okay, but if we manipulated the situation, with different numbers, then as numbers increase/decrease the situation changes. And although the aliens may be defensible to nuclear attacks, they would not be defensible to balefire.
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Post by Alex Moon »

consequences wrote:No, the author of the post probably wasn't certain of the exact interaction between high-tech and WOT powers. He also probably hasn't read the first four chapters of Hell's Faire, the sequel to WTDD yet.
I haven't. Ringo isn't high on my list of authors to read, and so I'm very behind on the Posleen series. I've only read parts of WTDD. What happens in the end of WTDD / beginning of Hell's Faire?
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