Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Would the Zeon forces have access to a vapourization bomb?

*POOF* Now I am Big Bird.

[MKSheppard]

Also, the firing of a 120mm gun on the M-1 makes the entire 70+ ton
tank shake BACKWARDS by several feet.

What is that 120mm machine gun going to do to a mecha that weighs
LESS and is unstable to begin with?

[Boba Fett]

The russians designed their tanks for this temperature and the "T" and "KV" series both worked with benzin.

Actually, they designed their tanks to be able to be started with compressed
air to turn the engines over. T-34 had this feature.

Yup..you're right, I asked my father about it.
In the army, back in the 60's he learned the tank driving on a T-34/85.

But anyway, we're saying the same thing! They didn't freezed up!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Also, the firing of a 120mm gun on the M-1 makes the entire 70+ ton
tank shake BACKWARDS by several feet.

What is that 120mm machine gun going to do to a mecha that weighs
LESS and is unstable to begin with?

It only produces recoil comparible to a regular michine gun.

[MKSheppard]

It only produces recoil comparible to a regular michine gun.

Then it is weaker than a 37mm cannon on the Pz III

[MKSheppard]

Then it is weaker than a 37mm cannon on the Pz III

Either that, or it’s stricktly a HE only weapon with piss poor muzzle
velocity like the Mk39 40mm Grenade launcher. How are you going
to hit that T-90 at 3km with such a poor weapon?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

They have more than just the 120mm.

[MKSheppard]

They have more than just the 120mm.

The 120mm is the only weapon with any staying power.

You have 6 x missiles, and only 4 280mm bazooka rounds to
fire at the T-90 at any effective range.

the T-90 OTOH has 43 rounds to reply with.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

There's also the Magella Attack cannon.

[MKSheppard]

the T-90 OTOH has 43 rounds to reply with.

And of course the Refleks:

The Refleks 9M119 AT-11 SNIPER laser-guided missile with a hollow-charge warhead is effective against both armored targets and low-flying helicopters. The missile, which can penetrate 700-mm of RHAe out to 4000 meters, gives the T-90 the ability to engage other vehicles and helicopters before they can engage the T-90.

[MKSheppard]

There's also the Magella Attack cannon.

WRONG.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msv/ms-06k.htm

Unfortunately, the shock and recoil of the cannon created problems with balance in the mobile suit, and the Zaku Cannon development project was quickly terminated.

[MKSheppard]

Unfortunately, the shock and recoil of the cannon created problems with balance in the mobile suit, and the Zaku Cannon development project was quickly terminated.

And that was a FIXED mounting on a special Zaku model, not the handheld
version. You won’t be able to hit anything with the handheld version.

[phongn]

Also, the firing of a 120mm gun on the M-1 makes the entire 70+ ton
tank shake BACKWARDS by several feet.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that, Shep. (breaks out paper and pencil for some basic physics...)

[phongn]

So you base your "win" on a luck Shot? NTM the Stated Optiminium Engagement range for T-90s is a mear 800 Meters

Not every engagement will be 7km(7000 Meters) most fall under 2KM in range, Escpilly fast moving Tank Battles.....

Then what was that 5km kill in the Gulf War by a Challenger?

You're comparing a Western tank with a rifled gun and advanced fire control with a Russian tank that uses a smoothbore and has fire control less advanced?

[MKSheppard]

You're comparing a Western tank with a rifled gun and advanced fire control with a Russian tank that uses a smoothbore and has fire control less advanced?

You don’t need an advanced targeting computer when your target is
the size of a HOUSE.

[MKSheppard]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that, Shep.

Watch footage of an M1 Firing. The shock of the main gun
firing overwhelms the recoil buffers, causing the tank to shake
like crazy.

[phongn]

Also, the firing of a 120mm gun on the M-1 makes the entire 70+ ton
tank shake BACKWARDS by several feet.

What is that 120mm machine gun going to do to a mecha that weighs
LESS and is unstable to begin with?

It only produces recoil comparible to a regular michine gun.

I assume that you meant the effect of a 120mm machine gun on a mech is similar to the effect of an MG on a vehicle or human, rather than being exactly as strong?

[phongn]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that, Shep.

Watch footage of an M1 Firing. The shock of the main gun
firing overwhelms the recoil buffers, causing the tank to shake
like crazy.

Shake the tank, but shove it back several feet?

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that, Shep.

Watch footage of an M1 Firing. The shock of the main gun
firing overwhelms the recoil buffers, causing the tank to shake
like crazy.

Shake the tank, but shove it back several feet?

It doesn’t move it backwards by more then an inch or so, if that. The recoil cylinders and suspension take up the energy.

[Sea Skimmer]

There is a story about an 88 crew in the Caucauses up on top of a
mountain who spotted a T34 in the valley below nearly 7 Km away.
They took a shot............ a lark really..........which connected and
destroyed the tank.

So you base your "win" on a luck Shot? NTM the Stated Optiminium Engagement range for T-90s is a mear 800 Meters


Not every engagement will be 7km(7000 Meters) most fall under 2KM in range, Escpilly fast moving Tank Battles.....

However fining in the support role 125mm fire could reach out over 9,200 meters with worthwhile accuracy. Engaging a giant mecha out to 4000 meters will be easily, considering that the mecha's head alone is the size of a M113.

The fire control limitation that limited long-range fire won't be an issue against such a huge target.

[The Yosemite Bear]

landing after a jump the Zaku would sink about waste deep into the mire.

Thats roughly twenty feet deep mud... Wow its a fucking sea of mud wonder how the tanks will do?

Problem: There is NO solid ground in the russian fall/spring, period.

It's all mud, mud as far as the eye can see...

Realy Shep? Then what is going to happen to the Tanks in that Twenty Feet Deep Mud nessary to impeded the Mechs...?


Seriously fokes come on now, your talking about Twenty feet Deep Mud to slow down those Tanks, if the T-34s can slog through it, I think fifty foot tall Mechs could handle it(Remeber how fast they can move to begin with thats a INSANE amount of Power needed to just take one step in those suits)

No I mean that given the MUCH smaller serface area, the fact that it's decedning from a jump, =enough force to push straight through the clay bed.

Once the mech pushes through the clay, the mud fills the void trapping the leg, not quite 20 feet, but enoguh for a quicksand La Brea Tar Pits time.

Mech's put a LOT of pressure on a small area. We have seen a Zaku crack ROADbed concrete after a jump, something the tank's distribution of weight will not do.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also, the firing of a 120mm gun on the M-1 makes the entire 70+ ton
tank shake BACKWARDS by several feet.

What is that 120mm machine gun going to do to a mecha that weighs
LESS and is unstable to begin with?

It only produces recoil comparible to a regular michine gun.

Which was Point #2 on WHY it can't be a transonic round like most of the Mech fans suggest.

[SAMAS]

It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.

Zaku's armament has ranged from 120mm Machineguns, which are stated to have a greater explosive effect and range, and High-velocity 90mm machineguns, which are smaller, but have greater damage due to higher velocity. This is why the majority of Mobile Suits in 0080 and 0083 use the 90mm guns, rather than the older 120mm guns used by Zakus in First Gundam and 08th MS Team.

But they are right in that the mud is not going to be a problem. First of all, Their sheer size means that the mud is less likely to get past their feet.

Second, mobile suits have moved and fought in river beds(08th MS Team episode 3), and in said episode, a Zaku II even jumped out of the river in question.

Thirdly, the debate gave them Zeon air power as well. Zeon Aircraft not only include fighters like the Dopp, and helicopters such as the Gunship Heli, but also Massive flying frotresses such as the Gau and Zanzibar-class Mobile Cruiser. These not only can easily be used to carry Mobile Suits to the battlefield over the mud, but also carry considerable firepower on their own(including the ever popular Beam Cannon). But most importantly, they bring the all-important Minovsky Particle Jamming with them. Kiss your radar goodbye.

And Fourth, before the end of the One Year War, the Zaku II and the Gouf had already been replaced by the Dom as the standard Zeon Mobile Suit. Zakus continued to be used solely on the sheer number that had been built. With a running speed of 90km/h, and a hovering speed of 240km/h, they can close any range gaps quickly and easily.

[The Yosemite Bear]

CLAY BED!+MUD

Shere size + small surface area of the foot units= it will have problems

Landing from a jump it can crack CONCRETE!

Pile driving through Mud into clay, then mud filling in the gaps will still work.

[Sea Skimmer]

It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.

And yet hundreds of tanks and other AFV's got killed at ranges of two miles or more in the Gulf War. Russian fire control's not the best in the world, but what they have today is easily comparable to late 1980's American technology. The use of ATGW's however makes things much simpler, point shoot, track.

Zaku's armament has ranged from 120mm Machineguns, which are stated to have a greater explosive effect and range, and High-velocity 90mm machineguns, which are smaller, but have greater damage due to higher velocity. This is why the majority of Mobile Suits in 0080 and 0083 use the 90mm guns, rather than the older 120mm guns used by Zakus in First Gundam and 08th MS Team.

But they are right in that the mud is not going to be a problem. First of all, Their sheer size means that the mud is less likely to get past their feet.

That doesn’t even make sense. It might if we where talking about small areas of mud, but when your in a vast of it you still sink in if your ground pressure is to high. For a giant mecha it's defiantly going to be too high.


Second, mobile suits have moved and fought in river beds(08th MS Team episode 3), and in said episode, a Zaku II even jumped out of the river in question.

Mud has much greater suction then water you know, and riverbeds are quite often hard clay or rock or sand, not mud. This proves nothing.


Thirdly, the debate gave them Zeon air power as well. Zeon Aircraft not only include fighters like the Dopp, and helicopters such as the Gunship Heli, but also Massive flying frotresses such as the Gau and Zanzibar-class Mobile Cruiser. These not only can easily be used to carry Mobile Suits to the battlefield over the mud, but also carry considerable firepower on their own(including the ever popular Beam Cannon). But most importantly, they bring the all-important Minovsky Particle Jamming with them. Kiss your radar goodbye.

I'm sure the Russians will give a fuck just as soon as they have weapons which use radar in this debate. However the Zeon get there eqvlaent close support aircraft to replace only Stuka's. They dont get a huge aerial armada of multipul types.

And Fourth, before the end of the One Year War, the Zaku II and the Gouf had already been replaced by the Dom as the standard Zeon Mobile Suit. Zakus continued to be used solely on the sheer number that had been built. With a running speed of 90km/h, and a hovering speed of 240km/h, they can close any range gaps quickly and easily.

Hovering speed is a contradiction in its self you. If they fly they become even greater targets and are easily dealt with using missiles. If they walk or land they get stuck in the mud.

And of course running on the ground places even more pressure on it. As it is they'd sink in standing still. Running just makes everything worse.