SW + ST?

[18-Till-I-Die]

It could be used as torture either way.

Send someone through and reassemble them with, say, no legs. Or no skin. Or no eye-sockets.

Theoretically, the Empire could use it to create and quickly breed a new clone army. No need for expensive time consuming cloning operations, just get your best soldier and duplicate him endlessly without destroying the original in the process. Instant, full grown, fully trained and indoctrinated clones on demand, cheep.

I presume from the description of the device that this would be relatively easy, and i guess the only thing keeping teh Feds from using it this way is the obvious moral and ethical problem here.

[Srynerson]

Yup. He went off on some deep space survey and eventually went rouge and joined the Maquis I believe.

(emphasis added)

He became a Communist? Anyhow, more on topic, with regard to the question of continuity of consciousness in a transporter, can't Barclay and Scotty's experiences be reconciled by allowing continuous consciousness but a different perception of time flow while in transmission? If so, then for non-Force users I wouldn't think there would be that much of a problem in SW. The potential impact of teleportation on Force sensitivity is a more speculative question, however.

[Noble Ire]

He became a Communist?

A little late for a spelling joke, dont you think?

[applejack]

It could be used as torture either way.

Send someone through and reassemble them with, say, no legs. Or no skin. Or no eye-sockets.

Yeah. Think of the Vulcan science officer in TMP.

Theoretically, the Empire could use it to create and quickly breed a new clone army. No need for expensive time consuming cloning operations, just get your best soldier and duplicate him endlessly without destroying the original in the process. Instant, full grown, fully trained and indoctrinated clones on demand, cheep.

I used to advocate that. However, the new subspace entanglement theory makes it more difficult, IIRC. For some reason, I can't access the Archive board, but there was a thread discussing the new theory.

I presume from the description of the device that this would be relatively easy, and i guess the only thing keeping teh Feds from using it this way is the obvious moral and ethical problem here.

The descriptions of the new theory makes mass cloning difficult. Or at least, that it's not something that would usually happen.

Still, let's take a look at the scene where the Riker duplicating incident took place.

GEORDI: ... apparently there was a massive energy surge in the distortion field around the planet just at the moment you tried to beam out. The Transporter Chief tried to compensate by initiating a second containment beam.

DATA: An interesting approach. He must have been planning to reintegrate the two patterns in the transport buffer.

GEORDI: Turns out he didn't have to. Commander Riker's pattern maintained its integrity with just the one containment beam -- he made it back to the ship just fine.

BEVERLY: What happened to the second beam?

GEORDI: The Transporter Chief shut it down, but somehow... it was reflected back to the surface.

PICARD: And another Wil Riker materialized there.

So, it would appear that the only thing the planet did was to 1) make conditions difficult for transport, thus making the transporter chief initiate more than one containment field, 2) reflected the second beam, and 3) the atmosphere somehow prevented the second reflected pattern from dissipating, allowing it to reform/rematerialize on the surface.

The cloning incident appears to have been a result of the transporter chief's innovative move of initiating two transporter locks on the same person. I don't know if it can be reproduced though. I suppose though that if you deliberately set multiple transporter locks on the same subject, you could try to clone them. Don't know if it'll be successful, but I think the Empire can spare the test subjects. Especially if they're Federation Starfleet prisoners of war.

[Junghalli]

Theoretically, the Empire could use it to create and quickly breed a new clone army. No need for expensive time consuming cloning operations, just get your best soldier and duplicate him endlessly without destroying the original in the process. Instant, full grown, fully trained and indoctrinated clones on demand, cheep.

Problem: if it's that easy why doesn't the Dominion create new Jem Hadar this way, or the Borg create new drones this way? Neither of those organizations ever struck me as having any ethical problems with stuff like this.
It could be that the transporter=death+cloning theory is wrong; there really is a soul or some other kind of life essence and if you make a transporter duplicate it fissions, and if you try to make an army of transporter duplicates you end up cutting it up into unviable tatters after the third or fourth duplicate. Or maybe it's similar to the way copying copies of pictures produces steadily more and more errors until the pic becomes lousy. Either way the fact the Borg and Dominion don't do suggests there's a technological reason.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well it may be the Borg dont because it goes against their 'thing'. Dont they only assemilate, not create anew? They might not consider it viable for their own 'ethical' reasons such as they are.

As for the Dominion, you have a good point and i cant imagine why they wouldnt, even if the Borg have some silly 'we dont create, we steal' rule the Dominion has never shown any such thing.

Hmm...i think you're right.

[Junghalli]

Well it may be the Borg dont because it goes against their 'thing'. Dont they only assemilate, not create anew? They might not consider it viable for their own 'ethical' reasons such as they are.

The Borg do create new drones, see Q-Who. I imagine the bulk of their drones are produced by cloning; unless the drones have an indefinite lifespan I don't see how else they could have trillions of drones in the Unimatrix.
Assimilation is more about absorbing the useful capacities of any enemies they encounter. For instance if they assimilated the book SST humans they'd probably start fielding tactical drones with carapace augments based on SST MI power armor.

[applejack]

Problem: if it's that easy why doesn't the Dominion create new Jem Hadar this way, or the Borg create new drones this way? Neither of those organizations ever struck me as having any ethical problems with stuff like this.

I guess they never thought that mass cloning was possible. Data thought that the double transporter lock was unusual. IIRC, the information of the transportee's pre-materialization state is inherent during the energized state. This might be the "soul" that people are thinking of. In any case, I don't think they knew that you could split up the data to make duplicates.

It could be that the transporter=death+cloning theory is wrong;

IIRC, being energized means that you're basically disintegrated. I have a hard time believing people survive that.

there really is a soul or some other kind of life essence and if you make a transporter duplicate it fissions, and if you try to make an army of transporter duplicates you end up cutting it up into unviable tatters after the third or fourth duplicate.

In Relics, Scotty couldn't (or wouldn't) rematerialize the other guy due to pattern degradation. I don't recall how much of the guy's pattern was lost. I checked the database, and for some reason it doesn't have this particular tidbit. If more than 50% of the guy's pattern was lost, then half the pattern might be some sort of threshhold for rematerialization. Riker's pattern was halved when he got the two transporter containment fields wrapped around him. Conceiveably, you can simply double it each time the template rematerializes and not risk diluting the template's transporter pattern. Basically, 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32, etc.

Or maybe it's similar to the way copying copies of pictures produces steadily more and more errors until the pic becomes lousy. Either way the fact the Borg and Dominion don't do suggests there's a technological reason.

Or, they're simply not aware of the possibility.

[Elheru Aran]

BTW, I recall hearing about some form of teleportation rings in the Star Wars universe. I think it came from the Essential Guide to Tech. Would somebody be able to find the entry? I'm wondering how it works and how it compares to ST transporters.

Da, I remember that, but not the exact details. It was basically some kind of Stargate-ish device, actually-- Magwit the Magician used it in his act, having acquired it from some odd alien. Two components-- round and rectangular, the round one a ring maybe five feet in diameter and the rectangular about the size of a standard door. They apparently worked on some sort of wormhole principle (don't recall exactly), and were short-range (less than 50 metres or so?). Boba Fett used them to capture a pirate for bounty in one of his comics, so it's very low-end canon. That aside, it's obviously very rare technology as there has never been any other examples of said tech.

[Junghalli]

IIRC, being energized means that you're basically disintegrated. I have a hard time believing people survive that.

You could argue that the soul gets transferred from one copy to another. Or that there is no soul and since the person that comes out the other end of the transporter has the exact same mind and body as you he is you. The way I always thought of it the transporter uploads you, energizes your body, reforms your body elsewhere, and then downloads you back into your body. That's just a theory of course.

If more than 50% of the guy's pattern was lost, then half the pattern might be some sort of threshhold for rematerialization. Riker's pattern was halved when he got the two transporter containment fields wrapped around him.

That could be. If the pattern is the data on how to recreate the person or the person's energized "body" then I'm actually rather suprised that they can safely rematerialize him with so little left.

Or, they're simply not aware of the possibility.

They've had the technology for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years and an application so obvious a bunch of college kids on a web-board can come up with it simply never occured to them?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Or, they're simply not aware of the possibility.

They've had the technology for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years and an application so obvious a bunch of college kids on a web-board can come up with it simply never occured to them?

I was going to suggest that very idea, that it never occured to them.

Mind, they dont know this is possible. Even the Feds, who do, try every possible thing to stop duplication from happening. They might beleive that it is impossible, or useless or unviable, and so simply have never attempted it at all.

[Junghalli]

Mind, they dont know this is possible. Even the Feds, who do, try every possible thing to stop duplication from happening. They might beleive that it is impossible, or useless or unviable, and so simply have never attempted it at all.

Uh, if the SD.net board members can come up with it don't you think that someone in the Dominion (which encompasses at least hundreds of worlds after all) would have also.

[Eleas]

Mind, they dont know this is possible. Even the Feds, who do, try every possible thing to stop duplication from happening. They might beleive that it is impossible, or useless or unviable, and so simply have never attempted it at all.

Uh, if the SD.net board members can come up with it don't you think that someone in the Dominion (which encompasses at least hundreds of worlds after all) would have also.

Given their observed tactical shortcomings, no.

[Phyre]

Mind, they dont know this is possible. Even the Feds, who do, try every possible thing to stop duplication from happening. They might beleive that it is impossible, or useless or unviable, and so simply have never attempted it at all.

Uh, if the SD.net board members can come up with it don't you think that someone in the Dominion (which encompasses at least hundreds of worlds after all) would have also.

We have the slight advantage of knowing that it happened. Civilized people were alive for thousands of years before they even knew that the heart pumped blood.

[applejack]

Da, I remember that, but not the exact details. It was basically some kind of Stargate-ish device, actually-- Magwit the Magician used it in his act, having acquired it from some odd alien. Two components-- round and rectangular, the round one a ring maybe five feet in diameter and the rectangular about the size of a standard door. They apparently worked on some sort of wormhole principle (don't recall exactly), and were short-range (less than 50 metres or so?). Boba Fett used them to capture a pirate for bounty in one of his comics, so it's very low-end canon. That aside, it's obviously very rare technology as there has never been any other examples of said tech.

Yeah, it kinda sounds like one of those throw away techs that pop up once then disappear...

Anyway, I think Techno_Union brought it up at SB.com. I could have sworn he said that it was mentioned in the Essential Guide to Tech. Might have kicked up the canon level.

[applejack]

You could argue that the soul gets transferred from one copy to another. Or that there is no soul and since the person that comes out the other end of the transporter has the exact same mind and body as you he is you. The way I always thought of it the transporter uploads you, energizes your body, reforms your body elsewhere, and then downloads you back into your body. That's just a theory of course.

Actually, I'm really not sure where to place the mytical metaphysics. I just assumed that the data was the soul in this case. When Riker was split, both were Will Riker. That's why in that episode where Picard is stuck as energy in that nebula, the crew was desperate to get that particular bit back. They needed to specifically get Picard's energy because it carried the info of his pre-dematerialization state. Basically, his soul. Of course, I get the impression that you're using the traditional definition of "soul," while I'm using it to label the data.

That could be. If the pattern is the data on how to recreate the person or the person's energized "body" then I'm actually rather suprised that they can safely rematerialize him with so little left.

Yeah. It's not as if the top half of his body appeared on the ship while the bootom half stayed on the planet. I'm assuming the double transporter lock had something to do with it. Since both locks got him and scanned his data, the overall information was divided equally between the two beams, or something like that.

They've had the technology for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years and an application so obvious a bunch of college kids on a web-board can come up with it simply never occured to them?

Uh, if the SD.net board members can come up with it don't you think that someone in the Dominion (which encompasses at least hundreds of worlds after all) would have also.

I don't know about that. Remember in "The Nth Degree" when Barclay got that Cytherian program downloaded into him? He eventually modified the warp engines to emit that subspace distortion that sent them towards the center of the galaxy or something. I don't get the impression that the crew knew their warp engines were capable of that.

Besides, technological progress isn't something one should readily attribute to Star Trek. In "Relics" Geordi comments that the 75 year old stuff on the Jenolan (sp?) were fundamentally the same as what they were using on he Enterprise at the time.

[applejack]

You could argue that the soul gets transferred from one copy to another. Or that there is no soul and since the person that comes out the other end of the transporter has the exact same mind and body as you he is you. The way I always thought of it the transporter uploads you, energizes your body, reforms your body elsewhere, and then downloads you back into your body. That's just a theory of course.

Actually, I'm really not sure where to place the mytical metaphysics. I just assumed that the data was the soul in this case. When Riker was split, both were Will Riker. That's why in that episode where Picard is stuck as energy in that nebula, the crew was desperate to get that particular bit back. They needed to specifically get Picard's energy because it carried the info of his pre-dematerialization state. Basically, his soul. Of course, I get the impression that you're using the traditional definition of "soul," while I'm using it to label the data.

That could be. If the pattern is the data on how to recreate the person or the person's energized "body" then I'm actually rather suprised that they can safely rematerialize him with so little left.

Yeah. It's not as if the top half of his body appeared on the ship while the bottom half stayed on the planet. I'm assuming the double transporter lock had something to do with it. Since both locks got him and scanned his data, the overall information was divided equally between the two beams, or something like that.

They've had the technology for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years and an application so obvious a bunch of college kids on a web-board can come up with it simply never occured to them?

Uh, if the SD.net board members can come up with it don't you think that someone in the Dominion (which encompasses at least hundreds of worlds after all) would have also.

I don't know about that. Remember in "The Nth Degree" when Barclay got that Cytherian program downloaded into him? He eventually modified the warp engines to emit that subspace distortion that sent them towards the center of the galaxy or something. I don't get the impression that the crew knew their warp engines were capable of that.

Besides, technological progress isn't something one should readily attribute to Star Trek. In "Relics" Geordi comments that the 75 year old stuff on the Jenolan (sp?) were fundamentally the same as what they were using on he Enterprise at the time.

Edit: Corrected spelling

[applejack]

SHIT!

Thought the quote button was the edit button. Could a mod delete the two last posts?

[Techno_Union]

Anyway, I think Techno_Union brought it up at SB.com. I could have sworn he said that it was mentioned in the Essential Guide to Tech. Might have kicked up the canon level.

Indeed, the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology lists the hoop/ring devices.

[LaCroix]

One thing never was clear to me...

They store peoples "plans" in the Transporter buffer, and are able to reproduce People out of leftovers of this buffer...

Why don't they "BACKUP" important people by getting a transporter buffer "Image" of these people every day. Why don't they "backup" the away teams, so if someone is killed, they just have to take some replicator raw materials and reproduce the guy at the time of departure (or use his dead body for recreation, if it can be reproduced.)

I don't get it...

[Lord of the Abyss]

Well, whenever they try to duplicate living creatures on purpose, we hear comments about "single bit" errors rendering the duplicate nonviable. Why this never happens with accedental dupes, I don't know.

[Vicious]

Why don't they "BACKUP" important people by getting a transporter buffer "Image" of these people every day. Why don't they "backup" the away teams, so if someone is killed, they just have to take some replicator raw materials and reproduce the guy at the time of departure (or use his dead body for recreation, if it can be reproduced.)

I don't get it...

Because they can't rely on dumb luck if they're trying to do something. It's sorta like flying in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The harder you try, the worse you'll fail.

[Junghalli]

One thing never was clear to me...
They store peoples "plans" in the Transporter buffer, and are able to reproduce People out of leftovers of this buffer...
Why don't they "BACKUP" important people by getting a transporter buffer "Image" of these people every day. Why don't they "backup" the away teams, so if someone is killed, they just have to take some replicator raw materials and reproduce the guy at the time of departure (or use his dead body for recreation, if it can be reproduced.)

A transport clone is basically an upload IIRC: the essential you is downloaded into the pattern buffer, your body is disintegrated and reintegrated, and then all your memories and everything is uploaded back.
With such a duplicate you copy the essential you, keep one copy in cold storage, and then use that to "recreate" you if you die. But is that really you? It's a whole different entity from the person who got killed by the Alien Sunflower of Doom on Planet X. So one might say what would be the point?