ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)?

[Mange]

I don't want to take sides, but perhaps a few words from GL could be of help:

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

I think that he hold his own in anticipation for Anakin to arrive (which I guess he had foreseen). While he wasn't perhaps up to Windu's skills, he must've trained Maul after all.

[Danny Bhoy]

I don't want to take sides, but perhaps a few words from GL could be of help:

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

I could live with that. Mace still gets to look like a BMF, while we can further acknowledge Augie's unrivalled wilyness. And not his traditional long-range scheming wilyness either, but a quick think on the feet sort.

[YT300000]

No, you fucking idiot. The proof is that MACE WINDU DEFEATED PALPATINE. If you're going to say that it was all a fake, the burden of proof is on you.

But what about the part where he had the point of his sabre directly at Windu's chest, a few inches away, but didn't stab forward?

[Publius]

Darth Sidious is probably more powerful than Mace Windu in terms of raw potential; in Revenge of the Sith, he fought Yoda to the point of exhaustion (although it presents a somewhat different version of the conclusion of their duel, the novelization does mention that "the shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings" and that "the creature had reached the limits of his strength" just before he fell to the bottom of the well). Sidious himself was exhausted after that particular battle ("the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man"), so it can be said that if Sidious is more powerful than Yoda, it is by a narrow margin. This was a close and hard-fought victory, not a clear-cut one.

It is important to remember that Palpatine has not had occasion to handle a lightsaber in over a decade by the time of Revenge of the Sith (the last time he was known to handle a lightsaber was in Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, when he briefly used Maul's lightsaber). His own lightsaber "had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness – darkness beyond darkness – for decades" within the neuranium statue in his office, according to the novelization (incidentally, the novelization confirms that Palpatine did have two lightsabers: the one he fought Windu with was destroyed, and the one he used in his duel with Yoda is described as "a small weapon – a holdout, an easily concealed backup, a tiny bit of treachery expressing the core of Sith mastery").Windu has had more training in swordsmanship and more opportunity to practice.

Although Sidious did train Maul and can therefore be assumed to be proficient in the various lightsaber forms (setting aside for the moment the separate issue of what precisely those forms are), and is probably more powerful than he, it does not necessarily follow that he can automatically defeat Windu; Anakin Skywalker was more powerful than Darth Tyranus in Attack of the Clones and Darth Vader was more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith, yet both times superior skill enabled his opponents to win. The Revised Core Rulebeook even notes that "other Jedi might be stronger of faster than Master Windu, but he is the recognized master of the Order's fighting techniques." It would be interesting to see a hand-to-hand contest, as Sidious is probably a master of Teräs Käsi (Maul was trained in the art according to Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), and Windu is also formidable in unarmed combat, if the stylized Clone Wars animated micro-series is any indication (Vol. 1, Ch. 13).

It is worth mentioning that even if Sidious's skill as a duelist were equal to Windu's, he would probably not win (or would win only narrowly). This is because Sidious is approximately ten years older than Windu and does not maintain the same level of physical fitness and exercise; by the time of Revenge of the Sith, Sidious is in his mid-to-late 50s to early 60s. Suppose that their skill levels are equal; Windu gains the advantage because of his superior natural speed, agility, and strength. As seen, Sidious is able to use the Force to enhance those attributes, but this prevents him from using that strength in the Force elsewhere.

Suppose for the sake of argument that Windu's power in the Force can be expressed as 50 and Sidious's as 75. Sidious is substantially more powerful than Windu, but in order to fight him on anything like an equal basis, Sidious must "spend" 25 of his 75 total in order to match Windu's natural physical attributes; if Windu similarly spends 15 to upgrade his own abilities, Sidious must spend an additional 15 to match, bringing his "overhead" costs to 40. Windu and Sidious both now have 35 to spend on other uses of the Force (like Sith lightning, Force walls, psychokinesis, &c.). However, the novelization also describes Windu's Vaapad as "an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow," which could potentially mean that Windu was able to redirect Sidious's more metaphysical attacks back upon him, just as he later did with his Sith lightning.

Given Windu's natural physical advantage and greater experience as a swordsman, not to mention the advantages of Vaapad and his "shatterpoint" charism, it is altogether possible that he was able to defeat Sidious despite the latter's greater power in the Force. It is not an automatic conclusion that the more powerful person will win (Anakin Skywalker was twice outclassed); a duel of Jedi or Sith is as much a matter of tactics, skill, technique, and "fighting spirit" as any other form of personal combat (given the Jedi and Sith abilities to influence minds, it is quite possible that their higher-level battles are also fought on a psychic level, reminiscent of Mr. Asimov's Second Foundation).

[Mange]

Very interesting, Publius! A very good analysis! However, I have a question. You say that Sidious "is in his mid-to-late 50s to early 60s" by the time of ROTS. How does that jive with the novelization saying that he's "very old"? While I'm certain that Sidious isn't ancient, isn't it possible that he's older than Palpatine appears to be? Ian McDiarmid also said in Insider #82 that Sidious is "very old" and that Sidious's appearance is "what he always looked like" and the Palpatine appearance merely a "carapace".

EDIT: I'm sorry, Publius. This looks like nit-picking and it's off-topic anyway.

[Publius]

Very interesting, Publius! A very good analysis! However, I have a question. You say that Sidious "is in his mid-to-late 50s to early 60s" by the time of ROTS. How does that jive with the novelization saying that he's "very old"? While I'm certain that Sidious isn't ancient, isn't it possible that he's older than Palpatine appears to be? Ian McDiarmid also said in Insider #82 that Sidious is "very old" and that Sidious's appearance is "what he always looked like" and the Palpatine appearance merely a "carapace".

EDIT: I'm sorry, Publius. This looks like nit-picking and it's off-topic anyway.

It is off-topic, but it does deserve mention as it is an important factor in the duel. As this author mentions in "Something Wicked This Way Comes, Part I: Prince of Many Faces":

Palpatine of Naboo was born on Naboo, one of 36 Republic member states in the Chommell Sector in the Outer Rim, in approximately 47 PGR. His place of birth is confirmed by The New Essential Guide to Characters, which lists his homeworld as Naboo, while the date can be inferred from evidence from Shatterpoint, in which Master Jedi Mace Windu, Senior Member of the Jedi High Council, is said to have been appointed to the Jedi High Council at age 30, some 20 years before the Haruun Kal crisis, six months after the Battle of Geonosis in Attack of the Clones, in 13 AGR; in the same novel, Windu estimates Palpatine to be "at least ten years" older than himself, which sets Palpatine's age as at least 60 in 13 AGR

Thus, Palpatine must be at least 63 in Revenge of the Sith. Notice, however, that he has spent the last 13 years as Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, three of those years with dictatorial powers; the stress and fatigue of holding high office alone could quite possibly age him beyond his years. Like the Caudillo in Spain, Palpatine kept up a strict and taxing work schedule, as Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary mentions that "close aides say that Palpatine sometimes works for days without sleeping," and his health is also known to be poor, as mentioned in HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 52: "Palpatine Health Rumors Denied." Add to that the strain of Palpatine's dual personality – like Tyler Durden, he has a rather active and accomplished "alter ego," Darth Sidious, who is actively planning a war of his own at the same time that Palpatine is running his war. That is to say, then, that Palpatine is actually doing the work of two very active people with very stressful jobs. The fact that his body would be unable to handle this is not especially surprising, and it is reasonable to believe that his body would be substantially weaker than that of a more average man his age. He must exert much greater effort to match Windu physically, because he is a sick and stress-aged man (to say nothing of the notional physical atrophy induced by the dark side of the Force, to which Sidious is especially vulnerable, having reigned as a Sith Master for at least three decades by the time of his duel with Windu). Although formidable, he is not invincible.

[Mange]

Alright. Thanks, Publius! (I've of course read your article, but it's always good with a refresher!)

[Trooper TK12746]

Given how fast he was moving, I don't think that he was impaired by his age. And he showed himself to rather strong and flexible aboard the Invisible Hand (in the elevator shaft) and in the duel with Yoda.

[Cykeisme]

Given how fast he was moving, I don't think that he was impaired by his age. And he showed himself to rather strong and flexible aboard the Invisible Hand (in the elevator shaft) and in the duel with Yoda.

Yes, but we already know this.

He achieved those feats by spending a portion of his Force power "overhead'.. his physical atrophy simply required that he spent a larger portion than he otherwise might have.

If you haven't already, do read Publius' earlier post. It's extensive, in-depth, and rather hard to miss on account of its size.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Whoa, Mace is fifty? Blimey. I always thought he was only about 35.

[Lord Revan]

OK these are stats for Ian McDiarmid and Samuel L. Jackson from magazine I got, which should pretty close to what Palpatine and Mace Windu are

Sam Jackson
height: 191 cm
Age:57

Ian McDiarmid
height:178 cm
Age:61

should be noted that Palpatine may not also be in very good shape, while Mace Windu probably has trained a lot due being a very active Jedi Master. this play a signigance importance in fight between them and we should remember Palpatine was hanging above a proverbial bottomless pit, so even without help from the Force he be able hang longer they it would seem possible at first glance.

[Grasscutter]

But what about the part where he had the point of his sabre directly at Windu's chest, a few inches away, but didn't stab forward?

I don't remember the moment exactly from the film, but off the top of my head there could be several reasons: Palpatine didn't have proper footing to make a killing stroke, he forsaw that Windu would jump back and dodge the lunge, etc. Even if he's positioned like this it's not a guaranteed kill, and attacking in a duel will leave you extended and exposed.

Palpatine may have placed his saber out like this to keep Windu from advancing closer or making an aggressive action.

[YT300000]

From what I remember, he had his elbow bent and was in a stable position, and could have just straightened his arm to stab Windu. Instead, he just stopped, and sneered, which I took to mean that he knew he could have ended it then and there, but chose not to. As for being open, Mace's sabre was all the way off to the side, Palpatine could have pulled back into a defensive stance before the BMF could swing around.

[Admiral_K]

I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.

I agree. Too many people here seem to that a duel between Jedi is an "all or nothing" deal. They must not watch much sports, or the idea of an upset would have occured to them.

[His Divine Shadow]

In one part midway through the duel, he has his sabre pointed directly at Windu's chest, and could kill him with a quick stab, since Mace's lightsabre is off to the side, and out of play. The fact that Palpatine doesn't kill him would suggest that the whole thing was a setup. Since, as per that theory, he needed to convince Windu to try to kill him, but time it so that he lost his sabre just before Anakin entered.

That keeps bugging me, I always think "Just stab the mother FFS! He's fucking wide open! C'mon!"

[Darth Wong]

In one part midway through the duel, he has his sabre pointed directly at Windu's chest, and could kill him with a quick stab, since Mace's lightsabre is off to the side, and out of play. The fact that Palpatine doesn't kill him would suggest that the whole thing was a setup. Since, as per that theory, he needed to convince Windu to try to kill him, but time it so that he lost his sabre just before Anakin entered.

That keeps bugging me, I always think "Just stab the mother FFS! He's fucking wide open! C'mon!"

And when I see him taking his time cackling and strolling up to Yoda as he lays on the floor of his office, I keep thinking "just lunge at him the way you did with those other Jedi and take him out now!" But he doesn't do it. Wow, we can second-guess people in fights; who knew?

As for this incident, Windu has his sword at the ready, and without a side-view, it's hard to tell exactly how close that blade is to him.

[His Divine Shadow]

And when I see him taking his time cackling and strolling up to Yoda as he lays on the floor of his office, I keep thinking "just lunge at him the way you did with those other Jedi and take him out now!" But he doesn't do it. Wow, we can second-guess people in fights; who knew?

It's the classical bad guy failing, Palpy should just have sent sith lightning into Yoda when he lied there. Somebody should send him the evil overlord list.

As for this incident, Windu has his sword at the ready, and without a side-view, it's hard to tell exactly how close that blade is to him.

Must check that sometime.

[Kuja]

Palpatine might've been afraid that if he stabbed, Windu would bring his saber around in time to redirect it and sidestep, then retaliate with what would surely be a fatel riposte the the midsetion. So, he hesitated and the fight continued.

[Trooper TK12746]

This seems to rapidly devolving into pure speculation.

[Darth Wong]

This seems to rapidly devolving into pure speculation.

It started as pure speculation. The only fact at hand is that Mace Windu did have Palpatine at his mercy and would have killed him if not for Anakin's interference, as stated explicitly in the canon novelization. All of this Palpatine-wanking is speculation and hand-waving.

[Vympel]

A lot of people always thought Yoda was more powerful than Mace Windu- simply because, well, he's fucking Yoda and we know him (and in all liklihood for most) like him a lot better. The RotS novelization does call Yoda and Palpatine's battle as between "the Master of all Jedi" and "the Lord of all the Sith" (or words to that effect).

I think the only compromise one can come up with in this situation is that Palpatine's begging etc after he lost his lightsabre was a put-on.

[Trooper TK12746]

Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him. And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.

[Mikal768]

You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.

Because if a person makes one situation turn out exactly the way they planned, they can make EVERY situation turn out exactly the way they planned?

[Manus Celer Dei]

Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him.

Palps was wearing a different set of robes during his fight with Windu to what he was wearing when fighting Yoda, when he used his "hold-out" lightsaber. Do we know that he had a hold-out in his first set?

And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

He was at the point of exhaustion after deflecting Palps barrage of lightning, not from the fight. In fact, the novels has several point which seem to imply that the fight wasn't tiring at all for Windu:

But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind.

Emphasis mine. Mace was not exhausted fromt the saber fight.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.

Evidence: Mace beat Palps. Now, I'm not sure of this, but isn't saying "He only won because Palps let him" against Occam's Razor?

[Darth Wong]

You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.

Because if a person makes one situation turn out exactly the way they planned, they can make EVERY situation turn out exactly the way they planned?

That's the underlying premise beneath your argument, fucktard. Your argument is basically "he can't fuck up, he just can't!"