[BL]Phalanx wrote:
Well, since you've shown that the Whitestar uses a Minbari power system, it is most likely that it *can* be set to deliberately blow up.
Slight clarification: I showed they used reactor systems like most YR, and not the Vorlon capacitors. Its only inferred from the fact the rest of the ship is Minbari tech that the reactor is (or rather Vorlon-enhanced Minbari, presumably.)
Oh, okay. Well that's certainly still a minority of the cases we've seen.
I'd include the Hyperion in Severed Dreams, but both would be indicative of instances where the safeties failed either due to damage or simple bad luck.
As a weapon, yes. But not necessarily as a power source.
If they can use it as a weapon, they'd have to likewise be able to use it as a power source. (if it were an antimatter particle weapon, they'd have to have pre-made antimatter stored, which could as easily be used to power the ship as fired as a weapon.) But the description of the converter is fairly clear - the weapon converts a portion of the hull matter into antimatter directly - so again, if rthey can do it for a weapons system, they should be able to convert matter to antimatter as a power system.
Problem is, you don't know what geostationary is. You don't know the rate of Z'ha'Dum's rotation, which would dictate what altitude a ship must be at to be in geostationary orbit.
I could be wrong, but we're probably not talking about a huge difference from an Earthlike. People like Justin, Anna, and Morden (or Sheridan for that matter) did not appear particularily uncomfortable on the planet, despite even the higher gravity.
Eh, 1.3 g at the surface, which falls off with distance. It could probably be neglected without sacrificing too much precision.
Ossus did bring up a good point that has to be addressed as well, though, so it may be lower gravity (not that this would be bad - in which case models based off MArs or another low-gravity planet might work.)
The other points I made about the visuals and line of sight seem to favor a closer distance (especially given the ending velocity of trhe ship.) This can still favor a distance in teht housands or tens of thousands of km.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Well, do we even know if it's possible for a self-destruct to release *everything* its got? If it can, and it's still less than 1000 MT, then we're looking at power generation for a Whitestar that's gonna be a *lot* lower.
Why wouldn't it? The point of a self destruct is to not only destroy the ship, but probably to take out anyhting within a close proximtiy to it. This would dictate an energy release comparable to what the ship itself could withstand, if not greater.
I suppose we could assume its less, but that strikes me as a bit pointless.
If we're going to gauge it by the kinetic energy it could've built up on the ramming, that's another thing.
There's also orbital bombardment. Given the estimated timeframe from purely "on screen" the WS would have had well over a minute to bombard the planet (which would have caused damage more quickly tham the kamikaze run or a probable rammingattack would, were it practical.) Given the lack of response in the WS's own dive, There's no reason to assume that bombardment would not have worked (dissipation wouldn't be a factor unless they were so high up they would completely dissipate before striking.)
There *is* a way to trace the maximum time, Connor. Simply look at that event and how it fits in with the rest of the timeline. For example, we know it couldn't have lasted 15 years... because 15 years after "A Call to Arms" is Crusade, and we know Vir and the Technomages were finished well before that.
Actually, you sort of have a point (but not quite in the way you stated it I think.) We know Vir probably did not spend a LARGE amount of time down there- noone noticed him absent for a long period, he hadn't aged significantly...and the pinnace could not carry extensive supplies. A more accurate upper limit probably owuld be something like a week, maybe a couple days. (two weeks maybe, but that might be stretching things.)
That's just the extreme I can think of at the moment. If we continue to work at it, would could come up with the maximum time it took, and thus the most conservative estimate for the time of construction.
True, although this simply means that there is another explanation to explain this along with the WArs of the Ancients.
And why would Vir's impression be inaccurate? The SPK *was* fully functional. It was able to move and its weaponry destroyed Xha'Dam, which was planet-sized IIRC.
We know it could move some, and it had some measure of firepower. This doesn't neccesarily mean "fully complete."
Vir's impressions would be questionable on the basis that his comments would not necceesarily be considered a technical description, but rather "off the cuff" comments. By what is he judging the completion of the vessel by? He only thought it "Appeared" to be nearing completion. For that matter, was it neccesarily the same PK as the two he saw before? Xha'Dam is a big place with lots of winding areas.
As an analogy, lets use the "War Zone" excalibur scaling analogy you mentioned during the whole discussion of the tim Earls size charts. You yourself argued that dialogue can be flawed if there is reason, and that people can get estimates wrong. The person might just give an eyeball guess rather than reading off of technical schematics or having done research about the stats or capaiblities. The same is equally true of Vir - moreso because he does not appear to have access to those sorts of stats - he seems to be arguing it based on the appearances to his own eyes (Whereas Gideon could very well have been briefedon the ship or received technical data which included the size, and he was simply repeating said information.)
One calc involves a "floor" though, where we can actually get the most conservative calc possible. In this case, the maximum amount of time that passed.
Partly true, but it still involves assumptions about the data involved, no matter how "Reasonable" they are considered.
The other calc does not have a "floor"... someone can use different numbers and get lower acceleration figures.
Well, okay, at some point there's a "floor" to it... but it would probably give the Whitestar a really low acceleration.
Quite possibly. Again though, the difference lies not in the difference in the kind of limit it is, but rather the fact it involves "reasonable assumptions." rather than direct data.
Yes, that was in the past though. Those primordial ships required centuries to develop *a long time ago*. We don't know their production rates as of B5 series' run.
You misunderstand. The "centuries" of development/enhancement occur as part of the ship's natural growth. They can indeed accelerate it to develop the ships in a shorter period of time, but this sacrifices the raw power capability. Primordials are FAR more powerful than the modern vessels (because the Shadows piloted the primordials rather than the YR) - They still keep them and will bring them out should neccessity dictate it (the need to fight against other FO's, for example.)
If they could build "primordial" ships in a far shorter timeframe than what "ancient" vessels could be built in, not only would the "primordial > ancient" fact be invallid, but the "quantity over quality" nature of the artificial growth would be pointless.
And we DO have some good idea of production rates for modern vessels, based on the patrol cruiser (the low end and smallest cruiser hull.)
Well on the other hand, Connor, those ships are alot more dense than the SPK... which is mostly empty space. Besides, we're not saying the SPK can be built in hours and minutes... we're saying it takes at least a day. If you want us to really be conservative, we can do that too. For now, how about 15 years?
More dense, but substantially smaller (want an idea of the scale involved? Remember the point defense turrets for the PK anmd how massive they were relative to the excalibur?) How many turrets does that thing have? How about the skeleton relative to that? That could very well amount to a SUBSTANTIAL amount of cruisers.
I don't know what this has to do with the Shadows.
Comparison of capabilities. For the most part, the FO's are on a rough order of magnitude parity with one another, but some obviously possess better abilities than the others. If a single Tri requires minutes to create ttemporary constructs (in the dozens, maybe at best hundreds including fighters), would you argue that the Shadows would be capable of similar or better feats creating a similar number of permanant warships?
Because anyone can still be yet more conservative, whereas with the SPK production rate, there *is* a limit.
No, there isn't. Both are still ambiguous incidents where the variables are open to some fairly wide interpretation, apparently.
What do you mean?
"luck" may not be part of it as much as you think, depending on how the scene played out. Visuals are objective, but human perception of them are subjective.
Like I said, we can trace the timeline. At most it's 15 years.
And I said, there's more to it than just the timeline. The construction rate estimates are questionable for a number of reasons, as I have presented.
or at least try to.
