I was explaining the appeal of this board to my co-workers; how a large, powerfu, technologically advanced culture can cross space and time and mop up a relatively backwards culture.
I also point out how the foolish few who attempt to propose the Federation have a fighting chance are utterly BITCHSLAPPED .
To which she says" Uh-huh, kinda like how the United States went to the other side of the globe and eventually beat the Vietnamese"
At which point I went:
Could a war with the UFP be the Empire's Vietnam?
Masochist to Sadist: "Hurt me."
Sadist to Masochist: "No."
Only if the Empire gives a shit about public opinion, or leaving survivors.
The Federation might very well turn into the NR's Vietnam(but possibly not, they can be dicks too), but the Empire will keep executing people until it finds the last ten who are willing to submit to Imperial rule.
The tech disparity is also much worse, unless the YV take up a living supplying the Feddies with arms and advisors(The Rebel Alliance isn't big enough to even make a credible effort).
That's basically been proposed as the Federation's only chance to "beat" the Empire. And it would be valid if you didn't take into account the fact that the Empire has no qualms about using devastating overwhelming force simply to make a point. Goes like this:
1) Federation insurgents make trouble for the Empire on Planet A.
2) Empire BDZ's Planet A.
3) Empire tells Planet B, C, D, etc., "Try what Planet A did, you end up like them." If B, C, D, etc. make trouble, repeat step 2, changing Planet name accordingly.
No. The Empire would not be bothered by mere concerns like political distractions back home, and would simply start blowing away planets if the war somehow dragged on too long.
Not only that, but the technology differences were far less significant. The US was fighting against an enemy that had at least comparable weapons, and a way of fighting back. That's a pretty big difference from federation starships that couldn't even scratch the paint on a Star Destroyer.
Absolutely not. The Empire would have both the resources and the iron will to utterly smash the Federation, ravaging entire worlds if they wanted to. There would be no half-assed 'limited war'. It would be all or nothing, no quarter given.
Nope, the empire has soldiers who are nearly immune to enemmy weapons (ships),
and they dont need to worry about supplies with their horrendous hyper-drive seeds.
It could happen in ground combat but then BDZ
Photography Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
Your co-worker's description is completely falacious. The United States could not touch the Vietnamese source of arms and equipment, ensuring that so long as there were warm bodies willing to fight, the war could go on. The Federation will not have a China or Soviet Union sitting outside of the Empire's reach to manufacture blasters, SAMs, and anti-armor weapons.
Tell your co-worker she should think about what she says before saying it.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
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Your friend is using a completely retarded argument. Imagine a United States which is perfectly willing to use nuke carpet-bombing on Vietnam and then ask yourself how that war would have ended.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
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The Vietnamese were being backed by nuclear armed states. Unless the CIS is shipping Lucrehulks and battledroids to the Feddys, it isn't a valid comparison.
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Well, it actually does make sense if he only said how a large, powerfu, technologically advanced culture can cross space and time and mop up a relatively backwards culture. because he did not explain the massive tech disparity, the ruthlessness of the Empire, the amount of thought that has been put into this conflict, ect.
By Enola's words, it does come out right. Your friend did not have all the facts. Large, powerful and technologically advanced culture and relatively backwards seem to typify America and Vietnam, if my grandfather is to be believed.
You can get her opinion when she is informed that the Federation can do just about zero damage, the Empire does far to much and also that the Empire has no limitations, politically.
The Imps might even wish for such a scenario - a relatively low - scale guerilla war with no chance of hurting them seriously would give them the PR needed to continue military buildup.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Ford Prefect wrote:You can get her opinion when she is informed that the Federation can do just about zero damage, the Empire does far to much and also that the Empire has no limitations, politically.
If she has ever watched Star Wars and still needs someone to explain to her that the Empire is ruthless, she must be a gibbering idiot.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:If she has ever watched Star Wars and still needs someone to explain to her that the Empire is ruthless, she must be a gibbering idiot.
You seem to have avoided adressing my actual point here. She doesn't know the vital facts, she has an incredibly basic outline which will not tell her that the Empire is so incredibly more powerful, immensely superior and thus unassailable by inferior Federation technology.
And again, I reiterate the point - Yes, the Empire is ruthless, sure, she should probably know that, if she was a fan. My dad has seen A New Hope more than once, twice in fact. Does that mean he knows that the Empire has zero political limitations, and can go around blowing up planets willy nilly in a situation where the Empire is fighting the Federation?
Darth Wong wrote:If she has ever watched Star Wars and still needs someone to explain to her that the Empire is ruthless, she must be a gibbering idiot.
You seem to have avoided adressing my actual point here. She doesn't know the vital facts, she has an incredibly basic outline which will not tell her that the Empire is so incredibly more powerful, immensely superior and thus unassailable by inferior Federation technology.
And again, I reiterate the point - Yes, the Empire is ruthless, sure, she should probably know that, if she was a fan. My dad has seen A New Hope more than once, twice in fact. Does that mean he knows that the Empire has zero political limitations, and can go around blowing up planets willy nilly in a situation where the Empire is fighting the Federation?
Okay...look at the DEATH STAR.
Look at the statement of dissolving the Senate.
For fuck's sake, they outlined in the first movie, the guys have about as much care for public opinion that every tin pot dictator does. Zilch.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
For fuck's sake, they outlined in the first movie, the guys have about as much care for public opinion that every tin pot dictator does. Zilch.
You're asuming of course that Enola's friend decided to make a political analysis of the Empire during her viewing of A New Hope? You're asuming that her knowledge of Star Wars is equal to ours, who seem to know too much about the Empire.
For fuck's sake, they outlined in the first movie, the guys have about as much care for public opinion that every tin pot dictator does. Zilch.
You're asuming of course that Enola's friend decided to make a political analysis of the Empire during her viewing of A New Hope? You're asuming that her knowledge of Star Wars is equal to ours, who seem to know too much about the Empire.
Okay, since we're debating anecdotal evidence....here goes for the slow
Death Star...blows up Alderran.
Tell me where even ONCE in any movie on a cursory basis was anby sort of angry mob shown?
Tell me where the outcry existed...except when they were toppled.
It doesn't fucking take analysis to see, the Empire had no such backlash...thus on a cusory basis, she's an idiot.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Ford Prefect wrote:You seem to have avoided adressing my actual point here. She doesn't know the vital facts, she has an incredibly basic outline which will not tell her that the Empire is so incredibly more powerful, immensely superior and thus unassailable by inferior Federation technology.
200 gigaton turbolasers. 16 teraton shields. Millions of cee FTL. Pretty simple.
Ford Prefect wrote:And again, I reiterate the point - Yes, the Empire is ruthless, sure, she should probably know that, if she was a fan. My dad has seen A New Hope more than once, twice in fact. Does that mean he knows that the Empire has zero political limitations, and can go around blowing up planets willy nilly in a situation where the Empire is fighting the Federation?
The Empire blew up one of its own planets. A major Core world like Alderaan. There's nothing to politically stop the Empire from cutting a fiery swathe through Federation space.
Dear Lord, the gods have been good to me. As an offering, I present these milk and cookies. If you wish me to eat them instead, please give me no sign whatsoever *pauses* Thy will be done *munch munch munch*. - Homer Simpson
Ghost Rider: Did the Empire actually tell people they blew up Alderaan? I mean, yeah it makes sense for them to have broadcast "Oh yeah, earlier today we blew up one of the most peaceful planets in the galaxy." I can see that happening.
And another thing. When the hell do we see citizens? Ever?
And Applejack, have you noticed that Enola did not tell his friend that? Have you actually read what he said?
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this. Not once in a A New Hope did I ever hear Alderaan called a 'major core world'. It's only claim to fame in the movies was that it was Leia's homeplanet. And very nice looking.
Ford Prefect wrote:And Applejack, have you noticed that Enola did not tell his friend that? Have you actually read what he said?
Yeah, and that's why I suggested those tidbits. Though my post was in response to yours, it was directed at a more general audience.
Dear Lord, the gods have been good to me. As an offering, I present these milk and cookies. If you wish me to eat them instead, please give me no sign whatsoever *pauses* Thy will be done *munch munch munch*. - Homer Simpson
Ford Prefect wrote:Ghost Rider: Did the Empire actually tell people they blew up Alderaan? I mean, yeah it makes sense for them to have broadcast "Oh yeah, earlier today we blew up one of the most peaceful planets in the galaxy." I can see that happening.
Did you miss that it was to be made an effective demonstration? Who needs such a thing unless it's for the Public?!
Did you miss that the Rebels knew of this?
It's there...in the dialogue.
And another thing. When the hell do we see citizens? Ever?
Guess, you've not been watching the same movies...unless you been missing ever place, but Hoth and Dagobah.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
ANH wrote:Tarkin:Dantooine is far too remote for an effective demostration, but don't worry we'll deal with your rebel friends soon enough
that pretty much says that, that the Empire told what happend to Alderaan and added that this happen to any other traitor.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Ghost Rider wrote:
Did you miss that it was to be made an effective demonstration? Who needs such a thing unless it's for the Public?!
Did you miss that the Rebels knew of this?
It's there...in the dialogue.
Ah yes, I forgot that. My mistake. However,
Guess, you've not been watching the same movies...unless you been missing ever place, but Hoth and Dagobah.
Oh yes, I remember them travelling to places where we see lots of citizens going about their daily live like . . . Bespin? Endor? Sorry, but could you name a planet they happen to go to where we get a clear picture of the citizenry?
And can you honestly say that Enola's statement doesn't come across as somewhat similiar to America in Vietnam, which made Enola's friend make her statement?
About Alderaan, Bail Organa Alderaan's senator could tell another senator to go fuck himself (though he said it in a more diplomatic way) in front of the suppreme chancellor in AOTC and a Alderaan senator was one of the chancellor nominees in TPM that doesn't sound insignigant system to me. It should noted that at any was public oppinion an issue during ANH (the Senate is not the same as the public).
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
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