adam warlock wrote:
again do you fully understand what i typed mr wong?
or did it go over your head...again.
I didnt use bayes theorem to prove that the vpk can destroy planets (lyta's, marcus, lenniers, and ivanovas exchange did that)
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Wrong again.
There's no reason to assume only ONE VPK was involved
in the attack. Marcus and Ivonova saw "a couple of ships that
were three, four miles across" immediately prior to your precious
dialogue-only based conclusion. (Btw, Lyta's dramaticism
aside, we never actually had DIRECT PROOF that the colony
and its planet were simply "gone." They concluded that by
monitoring the surrounding area for "anything unusual";
i.e., INDIRECT analysis.)
Furthermore, we learn that "no one within a 70 ly radius" is
"going to be safe" from the Vorlon attacks, the next one
of which is several days later. To suggest that the Vorlon fleet
had to split up prior to the destruction of Arkada is to suggest
that they couldn't reach a target NO MORE than 140 ly distant
within DAYS.
And how big is Arkada again? You said the VPK can destroy
planets, plural, based on said dialogue and indirect investigation.
How do we reach the conclusion that IT--that is, not two or more
PKs--could duplicate those effects on other planets?
but used to that just because eg. some later scene showed it not to destroy a (similar) planet doesnt automtically make it reduce its capability of destroying one.
No, you're right; it's capability as such is static, and what later
scenes may or may not show aren't necessarily damning in and
of themselves.
BUT...
How do you know the Vorlon fleet split up immediately prior
to the Arkada attack? They were all lumped in hyperspace together
on the same trajectory.
Furthermore, why would the VPK shatter one globe, with or without
assistance, yet it wouldn't do the same to other targets by choice?
I'm often told that the VPK "must" shatter planets to eliminate
Shadow influences through and through--that planet-shattering
is required since the escort fleet itself should be able to sterilize
a planet (though not nearly as quickly).
could you not fully understand the obvious, and just dimiss it as unreliable semantics *cough* .(yes im sure "planet not there anymore..destroyed" can have a zillion physical interpretations"...or is that bias at work).
Bullshit. It IS unreliable given what it is based on. Remember how
you told me that similar sensors--in fact, SUPERIOR sensors
to those used on B5 by Ivonova, Lennier et al. in your
prime and only example--were off by three orders of magnitude
in detecting the number of missiles a SPK launched at her targets?
...that is, Ericsson's
White Star's sensors which, IIRC, were
Minbari-based (and therefore superior to those on B5)?
dont mince/dimiss words.. key words were "not there anymore..the planet..they destroyed the whole planet."
Which job could be attributed to the entirety of VPKs fielded
in season four, and is based SOLELY on indirect evidence.
When faced with the totality of evidence--e.g., Ivonova's
statement that she found the SPK scarier because it left
NO SURVIVORS--your clinging exclusively to dialogue, let
alone dialogue that does not reflect empirical proof of a
VPK's effects, to claim the VPK can shatter planets is silly.
Hell, maybe the thing CAN shatter a
planet. But
how big of a planet CAN it shatter? How long does it
take for the thing to re-charge?
I ask because you invariably compare the VPK to the Death
Star (and the Vorlons to the Imperials).
from that standpoint.. YES its much less ambigious than "evacuating survivors"..to the point that its a certainty...else why say the planet is "not there anymore..".. just what extent of damage was done to make them conclude that "its not there anymore".. keeping in mind they sent a probe to scan the area the planet was in.
You mean SECTOR 70? And yes, they
did monitor the area
for "transmissions...anything unusual." So what?
And what's this "they concluded" stuff? In response to Lennier asking,
"[The Vorlons destroyed] the base?" Lyta exclaims, "No, the planet.
They destroyed the entire planet!"
Ivonova NEVER states that the PLANET is "no longer there." She
says that the base was on Arkata 7, and that it is not there anymore;
i.e., the BASE is no longer there.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/vorlons/pk3.ram
No matter how the characters themselves came to these roundabout
conclusions, Lyta knows all! God only knows how literally we should
interpret her words (delivered, btw, in great distress...no doubt she
felt the deaths of 4 million in a fashion somewhat similar to Kenobi
recoiling after the destruction of Alderaan).
as for the survivors.
who says they were evacuating survivors from planets that have been hit?..
"Who's to say?" is a classic appeal to ignorance.
and where was it specified that the vpk was involved in those attacks.
It's actually *not* specified, though we ARE told that the Vorlons
had struck a specific number of worlds, and B5 personnel even
established a standard operating procedure for the Vorlon
fleet therefrom (Garibaldi's statement about jumping in,
blasting the hell out of a target, etc.).
Given the small no. of worlds we're told have fallen to the Vorlon
advance, the establishment of a SOP MUST indicate that the VPK
was involved in at LEAST a significant number of those attacks.
You don't talk about SOP based on one or two examples...it
wouldn't be standard then, would it?
why cant they be evacuating survivors from planets that have yet to be hit...
LOL. Because those
are not survivors. The guy that runs
for high ground before the flood is NOT a survivor of the flood.
Simple as that.
And what was it you were telling me at SB about butchering good
ole' Bill of Ockham's principles?
but of course you would probably harp on about the why the need for ships for those who have already used ships to previously evacuate to a safe refuge now being targeted... wouldnt it possibly that they have needed those ships to help evacuate potential target that are low tech worlds incapable of spaceflight,..corriana 6, being one.
I looked and looked here and couldn't find a point. I saw your
"possibly" but I don't see how that constitutes proof for...?
this point is weak..
parity between shadows and vorlons on level of power generation, or destructive capability was settled by shattering of zha'dum.. unless youre telling me it was the drakh that made the bombs that did that.
Bullshit. That IS no parity. Z'Ha'Dum's destruction being
attributed to some sort of steady-state power generation is like
saying the fucking KLINGONS could shatter a small planet based
on the Praxis example.
why does the vpk and spk necessarily have to equal eachother in power generation capabilities.
Straw Man. I don't think ANYONE here said the two had to "equal"
each other, just that billions of times difference seems a bit...
hmm...fucked up?
You'll say that the SPKs were thrown together very quickly,
thus explaining why their output is shit next to the VPK's, eh?
Then tell me why Ivonova found the fact that the SPK left
NO survivors "scarier" than what the VPK did?
its like saying a trained samuari with a sword needs to have the same strength as a powerlifter with a sledgehammer to be able to cause as many deaths of feeble opposition..no.
Heh. I gotta say that was pretty funny Adam
But...
Yet again, I disagree. The two weapons in question aren't a question
of strength as such. It's all about yield and shattering globes.
Why do the Shadows have such a terrifying weapon--a weapon which
can be utterly destroyed by nailing its command center btw--
if it is something like ten orders of magnitude LESS powerful
than the Vorlon counterpart?
of course if your stating that the spk doesnt produce as much energy as the vpk.. that may well be true.. and it only means the shadows chose a less energetic method of wiping out planetary populations at that time.. we already know (from the shattering of zhadum) that they can shatter worlds if they feel the need to do so.
Err, the Great Machine rings a bell. Remember it? I don't think
IT was going to be blown up by a spur of the moment cluster
of bombs.
We know next to nothing of the circumstances surrounding the
explosion of Z'Ha'Dum. Concluding that the Shadows can readily
shatter worlds based on that example is pretty damn thin.
pardon?..
are you referring to a different episode..
when was 2mt mentioned in the episode with the "bonehead manuver" scene..
He's not *talking* about the damned Bonehead maneuver!
Mike has no idea
what you're going on about. You need
to stop with the eye-rolling and state your case!
Then, you take ambiguous dialogue,
you mean "not dismiss relevant dialogue"
You are begging to join the Smackdown list. That sounds
exactly like something Dark Star said.
you mean fit all into theory.. unlike you i did not dismiss evidence to fit a theory... eg.. i didnt dismiss the survivors..
Yeah, you did, by perverting "survivor" to mean something it
cannot mean in the English language.
Michael's explanation--and my explanation, and Babtech's--
doesn't require that we redefine "survivor." It doesn't require
a million stupid excuses and assumptions insofar as some
straight-laced dialogue is concerned. Survivors were ON THE
GROUND!
Think about scale, too, if you fall back to the "VPK wasn't
involved" excuse.
Even if all but two Vorlon battlecruisers were involved
in that operation, it's pretty damn pathetic. You probably
have some idea how puny an
Imperator-class Star
Destroyer is next to the Death Star Mk. I, yet models
potentially *inferior* to the ISD-I can strip a planet of its
atmosphere in short order, slag the surface, etc. To be
SURE, an ISD could easily wipe out all planetary life (including
bacteria) in a matter of hours at most.
You probably also have some idea how a Vorlon battlecruiser,
battleship, dreadnought--whatever someone wants to call it--
compares in size to the PK. The PK is only about 4 miles wide,
so the size differential between it and the VBB should be
significantly smaller than that of an ISD-DS Mk. I. IOW,
the VBB should be more than capable of duplicating--and exceeding--
a Base Delta Zero operation, right?
But that doesn't happen, hence our survivors (apropos one
of the classic excuses/rationalizations). Why? Were the
Vorlons drunk when they built their battleships?
Oh, no,
they were holding back! :p
ROTFLOL...
) and that I too can vouch for Phalanx. He is perhaps one of the more reasonable Fivers, and someone who (unlike certain parties - IE Adarx or Warlock) who seem genuinely interested in attempting to perform analysis. He may not be as conservative as some, but he's open enough for the most part - and he does a fairly good job with evidence (when asked for.)
).
