Flawed games you wish were fixed
Moderator: Thanas
- Master of Ossus
- Darkest Knight
- Posts: 18213
- Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
- Location: California
Knights of the Old Republic II
Baldur's Gate II (and its sequel, The Throne of Bhaal)
Planescape: Torment
All of these games were good in their own right; the latter two were classics. Nonetheless, all three were flawed in that they were rushed to publication. KotORII's woes are well-known, and need not be repeated.
In the case of BGII and ToB, the NPC interactions needed to be improved. Especially in ToB, it was clear that the stories were not finished. Conversations would lead to nothing (in particular, Aerie's early talks with Edwin led nowhere). Ideally, the game's characters and NPC's should have changed alignments and gained or lost abilities due to having other characters in the party, opening up vastly more re-play opportunities. The characters' little spiels at the end of the game also should have changed depending on which other NPC's you brought along, and how you dealt with the conversations. Edwin, for example, should have been able to become a neutral or even a good character, eventually, if you had treated him with respect and care (and he should've had more problems with the Red Wizards); they should have allowed Nalia to become a lich (I strongly believe that's where they were going with her, originally); Sarevok's potential conversion should have actually had ramifications in-game (perhaps even losing his spectacular weapon in exchange for a more good-appropriate ability).
Finally, in the case of Planescape: Torment, they should have retained the sound files and conversation options with the NPC's. Those characters were too good to skimp on, and the interactions with them should have been played up even more. They should've been able to approve, disapprove, or even change depending on TNO's choices throughout the game (to some extent, they did, but MORE!), since a huge part of the appeal was that TNO could literally do anything and be anyone.
Baldur's Gate II (and its sequel, The Throne of Bhaal)
Planescape: Torment
All of these games were good in their own right; the latter two were classics. Nonetheless, all three were flawed in that they were rushed to publication. KotORII's woes are well-known, and need not be repeated.
In the case of BGII and ToB, the NPC interactions needed to be improved. Especially in ToB, it was clear that the stories were not finished. Conversations would lead to nothing (in particular, Aerie's early talks with Edwin led nowhere). Ideally, the game's characters and NPC's should have changed alignments and gained or lost abilities due to having other characters in the party, opening up vastly more re-play opportunities. The characters' little spiels at the end of the game also should have changed depending on which other NPC's you brought along, and how you dealt with the conversations. Edwin, for example, should have been able to become a neutral or even a good character, eventually, if you had treated him with respect and care (and he should've had more problems with the Red Wizards); they should have allowed Nalia to become a lich (I strongly believe that's where they were going with her, originally); Sarevok's potential conversion should have actually had ramifications in-game (perhaps even losing his spectacular weapon in exchange for a more good-appropriate ability).
Finally, in the case of Planescape: Torment, they should have retained the sound files and conversation options with the NPC's. Those characters were too good to skimp on, and the interactions with them should have been played up even more. They should've been able to approve, disapprove, or even change depending on TNO's choices throughout the game (to some extent, they did, but MORE!), since a huge part of the appeal was that TNO could literally do anything and be anyone.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
- Chmee
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4449
- Joined: 2004-12-23 03:29pm
- Location: Seattle - we already buried Hendrix ... Kurt who?
SW Galaxies ...
So much architecture is there for a great game, but the management of this project .... the stupidness, it burns-s-s-s-s-s!
So much architecture is there for a great game, but the management of this project .... the stupidness, it burns-s-s-s-s-s!
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon"
Operation Freedom Fry
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon"
Operation Freedom Fry
It may be a controversial opinion, but my conception of 'fixing' the Baldur's Gate games involves ripping out the wilfully perverse 2nd Ed ruleset and plugging in the 3.5E one (there's a mod that does this by loading the BGII content into IWDII).Master of Ossus wrote:Baldur's Gate II (and its sequel, The Throne of Bhaal)
Oh, and making it so it isn't game over if your main character dies, or more importantly gets Imprisoned, because that makes some foes arbitrarily more annoying, because Imprisonment has no saving throw.
- Master of Ossus
- Darkest Knight
- Posts: 18213
- Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
- Location: California
Actually, I think that all of the 2nd edition videogames are much better than later games--just look at how much better IWD is compared to IWD:II. Planescape and Baldur's Gate both dominated even the excellent Neverwinter Nights and KotOR. I can easily see that it's easier for players in PnP to use the 3.0 and 3.5 rules, since they're much simpler, but when the computer does all the dice, all the calculations, and keeps track of everything for you the 2nd edition rules provide a richer and more fulfilling experience, IMO.Vendetta wrote:It may be a controversial opinion, but my conception of 'fixing' the Baldur's Gate games involves ripping out the wilfully perverse 2nd Ed ruleset and plugging in the 3.5E one (there's a mod that does this by loading the BGII content into IWDII).Master of Ossus wrote:Baldur's Gate II (and its sequel, The Throne of Bhaal)
Quite so. I can't tell you how many times Kangaxx wiped my party before I realized that a Berserker's rage ability protected him from Imprisonment.Oh, and making it so it isn't game over if your main character dies, or more importantly gets Imprisoned, because that makes some foes arbitrarily more annoying, because Imprisonment has no saving throw.
Last edited by Master of Ossus on 2005-06-20 03:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
as in Birth of the Federation right?ALI_G wrote:Can't believe that BOTF hasn't been mentioned. I have still spent thousands of hours on that game, but it was so flawed and the slow down later on in the game makes it almost unplayable. The final straw was [whilst using a mod, admittably] having a huge space battle take over two hours to load ... for ONE turn of battle!
Secondended. Had the same thing
2nd Ed rules are just illogical and silly in too many respects. Saving throws are a great example of this, you have different chances to resist the same effect if it comes from a spell, a wand, or something breathing. In 3E it's based on the effect itself, not the source of the effect.Master of Ossus wrote:
Actually, I think that all of the 2nd edition videogames are much better than later games--just look at how much better IWD is compared to IWD:II. I can easily see that it's easier for players in PnP to use the 3.0 and 3.5 rules, since they're much simpler, but when the computer does all the dice, all the calculations, and keeps track of everything for you the 2nd edition rules provide a richer and more fulfilling experience, IMO.
The failings of 3E based computer games are more to do with failures in their content than the system being less 'rich'.
- Sharpshooter
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1081
- Joined: 2004-08-31 10:59pm
Since there was something of a Gundam rant during pages one and two, I'd like to throw a bit of gas on the fire and nominate Kidou Senshi Gundam Cross Dimension: Away to the NewType for the ol' SNES. It had an interesting set-up, you got a nice briefing of what happened in the anime, it worked quite well for ripping avatars from (got one for a character on an RPG, as a matter of fact - recolor, but meh), and it threw an interesting twist into combat with the combo system.
Of course, something this decent must have a hum-dinger of a flaw to botch it up, and boy, AttN's got a whopper.
About seventy-five percent of the game's combat was done in "flight," which was something of an interesting premise: you weave around a defined area, dodging enemy gunfire in the first person until a timer runs out and you get to go on the attack, then go after the enemies and shoot them down. Rather n ice - except for the fact that every Tom, Dick, and Harry you went up against had an attack you had no chance of escaping. Not that the combat was difficult, oh no - the enemy flew STRAIGHT up to your screen, parked his ass RIGHT in your crosshairs, and proceeded to pump you full of lead for the next fifteen seconds. No chance to escape it, no chance to block it, and you got hit with an average of fifteen to twenty damage a shot - if you got hit with one of those, you DIED, plain and simple. Good thing for ZSNES' codefinder ability - I'd never have beaten the MRX-009 Psycho without unlimited suit energy. Not to mention the fact that, when you DID go on the offensive, there was no point in using any of your special weapons - they always did the same amount of damage as the vulcans, so it was always the same four five-round bursts each time. Bleh.
Of course, something this decent must have a hum-dinger of a flaw to botch it up, and boy, AttN's got a whopper.
About seventy-five percent of the game's combat was done in "flight," which was something of an interesting premise: you weave around a defined area, dodging enemy gunfire in the first person until a timer runs out and you get to go on the attack, then go after the enemies and shoot them down. Rather n ice - except for the fact that every Tom, Dick, and Harry you went up against had an attack you had no chance of escaping. Not that the combat was difficult, oh no - the enemy flew STRAIGHT up to your screen, parked his ass RIGHT in your crosshairs, and proceeded to pump you full of lead for the next fifteen seconds. No chance to escape it, no chance to block it, and you got hit with an average of fifteen to twenty damage a shot - if you got hit with one of those, you DIED, plain and simple. Good thing for ZSNES' codefinder ability - I'd never have beaten the MRX-009 Psycho without unlimited suit energy. Not to mention the fact that, when you DID go on the offensive, there was no point in using any of your special weapons - they always did the same amount of damage as the vulcans, so it was always the same four five-round bursts each time. Bleh.
This has been another blunder by you friendly local idiot.
- Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
Chrono Cross: I was waiting so long for a sequel to Chrono Trigger. And we got this. To me there was the nugget of gold in a lot of shit. It seemed too obssessed with adding characters, most of them useless, as oppossed to developing a strong, coherent story like it's predecessor. And don't get me started on the combat system, shit on a stick. I still barely understand it.
It's a real shame that it hasn't been redone and the franchise in the making still born.
It's a real shame that it hasn't been redone and the franchise in the making still born.