Anakin-Mace-Palpatine change

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-19 08:20pm

Overall I liked Episode III, but I think that the whole Anakin turn could've been done much better.

I say everthing is done the same up until the point where Mace is about to bring his strike down on Palpatine. At this point, Anakin uses his lightsabre to block the blow just as he blocked Lukes in RotJ.

Then Mace and Anakin fight. At this point, Anakin has not turned. He simply doesn't want Mace to kill palpatine since he feels that Palpatine may know the only way to save padme. So we see a major duel take place, Palpatine sort of sits back and watches the battle unfold at this point.

As they fight Mace has a slight upperhand. During the duel mace makes statements about how he never trust anakin, how it was him who pushed to not give the master title. He states that he knew Anakin would do something like this. All the while Anakin is defending himself saying he just wants palps to stand trial. Eventually Mace makes a statement that he knows all about padme and that once the war is over he'd see to it that they both are punished. This makes Anakin very angry and he goes nuts eventually ending up in the same spot where he cuts off Mace's hand and palps eventually blasts him out the window with force lightning.

Then palps starts his spiel about how anakins hate made him powerful and how he could teach anakin to use that to save padme. Overall, I think that would be a much more satisifying turn as well as demonstrate Anakins power. He'd have beaten Mace and Dooku and the last battle vs Obi Wan would be all the more impressive IMO.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-19 08:35pm

You bastard! That does sound good!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-06-19 08:48pm

Eh, no. If Mace could beat Palpy, I don't think neophyte Anakin without ANY SITH TRAINING WHATSOEVER AND NOTHING BUT PURE TALENT should beat Mace and then lose, however, to Obi-Wan. Moreover, your scenario has Mace being a complete retard just to advance the plot in a contrived way.

JediMaster415 · Post by **JediMaster415** » 2005-06-19 09:07pm

If Mace were to fight Anakin at all, Mace should believe that Anakin has already fallen, that he's already pledged himself as a Sith. He should believe that Anakin is irredeemable and no better than Palpatine. No real talking. Just both Jedi doing what they think they need to.

While that may be the same thing that you're saying, the execution is playing itself differently (compared to your description) in my head. Though, in my opinion, the scene is good enough as it is.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-19 11:34pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Eh, no. If Mace could beat Palpy, I don't think neophyte Anakin without ANY SITH TRAINING WHATSOEVER AND NOTHING BUT PURE TALENT should beat Mace and then lose, however, to Obi-Wan. Moreover, your scenario has Mace being a complete retard just to advance the plot in a contrived way.

Just because Mace caught a lucky break and knocked the lightsabre out of Palpy's hand and out of a window to a point where it could not be recovered doesn't mean that Mace was the better fighter. Further, some have suggested that Palpy had already forseen what would occur and allowed Mace to get him into the position that he did.

As far as Anakin goes, he is essentially presented as the Jedi with the most "force talent". Sith training isn't exactly the opposite of Jedi training. As a comparison, look how Luke took it to Vader in RotJ. He had no "sith training" yet he was able to call on the darkside and lay a beating on Vader. Its not as if Anakin would suddenly forget his light sabre skills. Remember he took out Dooku, who more or less stomped both he and Kenobi, as well as fighting Yoda to a temporary stand still.

I fail to see how this makes Mace into a "complete retard" by losing to Anakin. It would make the final battle all the more dramatic, with Kenobe the consensus underdog. Kenobe isn't exactly chopped liver, and the idea that he could defeat Anakin under the right circumstances is well within the realm of possibility. Again, people seem to think that if you are defeated once by an opponent that means that you are inferior to that opponent. Geeze is the concept of an "upset victory" completely foreign to you?

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-19 11:40pm

JediMaster415 wrote:If Mace were to fight Anakin at all, Mace should believe that Anakin has already fallen, that he's already pledged himself as a Sith. He should believe that Anakin is irredeemable and no better than Palpatine. No real talking. Just both Jedi doing what they think they need to.

While that may be the same thing that you're saying, the execution is playing itself differently (compared to your description) in my head. Though, in my opinion, the scene is good enough as it is.

Whether or not Mace believed Anakin had fallen, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have a conversation with Anakin during the duel. Hell, in every duel he's been a part of (as both Anakin, and Vader) he's had a conversation with his opponent. Some, more than others of course.

Not talking simply would not be in character for Mace. Look at his dialouge in AotC and with Palpy in RotS. He isn't a "doing what you need to do without alot of talk" guy.

The main reason I don't like the scene is because Anakin seems to go from decent guy who just wants to save his wife, to someone who is coldblooded enough to cut down younglings. However, if he tasts the power of the darkside by using it to defeat Windu, then his conversion would be much more logical.

Post by **Kuja** » 2005-06-20 01:15am

Sword fights with a large amount of dialogue are retarded. You cannot be fighting for your life and carry on an extended conversation at the same time. It stretches credibility and would've ruined the scene.

JediMaster415 · Post by **JediMaster415** » 2005-06-20 01:32am

Never mind that Mace has never talked during a fight to begin with. He talks before and after but never during. He concentrates purely on what he's doing. So, him having a conversation during a duel with Anakin would be out-of-character.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2005-06-20 06:58am

Why is Mace just being pointlessly evil in the above scenario? Wouldn't he want to convince Anakin to stop being a retard before antagonizing him? Why get into a duel with him when all he did was prevent him from violating his own code?

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 08:18pm

Kuja wrote:Sword fights with a large amount of dialogue are retarded. You cannot be fighting for your life and carry on an extended conversation at the same time. It stretches credibility and would've ruined the scene.

I didn't say that they would be reciting the complete works of Shakespeare.
I would envision a conversation no more or less than what Anakin has had in any of his other duels. I just think that Anakin should have been provoked to use the dark side, which would make a much more believable turn.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 08:21pm

JediMaster415 wrote:Never mind that Mace has never talked during a fight to begin with. He talks before and after but never during. He concentrates purely on what he's doing. So, him having a conversation during a duel with Anakin would be out-of-character.

Its not a conversation. It is a series of statements. No more or less dialouge than he had while blocking the Emperor's force lighting sequence. Such as the ones Dooku made in the opening duel of RotS.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 08:27pm

Morilore wrote:Why is Mace just being pointlessly evil in the above scenario? Wouldn't he want to convince Anakin to stop being a retard before antagonizing him? Why get into a duel with him when all he did was prevent him from violating his own code?

From Mace's point of view he isn't being evil. He is being vindicated. As far as antagonizing Anakin, I think Mace has shown that he can be a very abraisive person. He is the one who makes it a point that Anakin is not to be made a master. Later he makes statements that he doesn't trust Anakin. He seems to talk down to Anakin in most instances, and implies that he still doesn't fully trust him even after Anakin tells him about Palpatine.

Mace would be upset with Anakin for defying him, semmingly validating all of Mace's assertions. He would view Anakin as a traitor and seek to defeat him as to allow himself the opportunity to take out Palpatine.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2005-06-20 08:34pm

I cannot reconcile the Mace who went "Don't listen to him, Anakin!" with a Mace who goes "You're a stupid bitch." Yes, Mace is abrasive, but he's not that much of an asshole.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2005-06-20 09:19pm

Mace isn't a complete idiot. Antagonising a very powerful Jedi who's verging on turning would be rank idiocy of the highest degree. Especially when that Jedi recently swatted the other Sith Lord aside without even seeming to break a sweat and has a big-league prophecy riding on him. Anyone stupid enough to pull something like that deserves all they get. Even worse to do it when the Sith Master is in the same room likely watching on in absolute glee and egging Anakin on for all he's worth.

All it would accomplish would be to get Mace very dead, very fast. Even if he did manage to beat Anakin - a big if considering how easily Anakin seemed to defeat Dooku - he'd then have to face the rested and ready Sith Master while being in less than pristine condition himself. And Mace would almost certainly realise that.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 09:19pm

At the time Anakin was simply a bystander. But if he actually ignighted his lightsaber, and blocked Mace' blow, then its a whole different ballgame.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 09:21pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:Mace isn't a complete idiot. Antagonising a very powerful Jedi who's verging on turning would be rank idiocy of the highest degree. Especially when that Jedi recently swatted the other Sith Lord aside without even seeming to break a sweat and has a big-league prophecy riding on him. Anyone stupid enough to pull something like that deserves all they get. Even worse to do it when the Sith Master is in the same room likely watching on in absolute glee and egging Anakin on for all he's worth.

All it would accomplish would be to get Mace very dead, very fast. Even if he did manage to beat Anakin - a big if considering how easily Anakin seemed to defeat Dooku - he'd then have to face the rested and ready Sith Master while being in less than pristine condition himself. And Mace would almost certainly realise that.

Ok Smart Guy. Mace is about to bring down the killing blow, Anakin blocks his lightsabre. Then what?

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2005-06-20 09:28pm

Ok Smart Guy. Mace is about to bring down the killing blow, Anakin blocks his lightsabre. Then what?

Everything I said applies to that situation. Violence would be the absolute last resort in that situation and if he had to resort to it then the situation would have span completely out of his control and became absolutely hopeless. Mace might be the biggest badass in the galaxy but against Anakin and Palpy? Fucked to the highest degree possible. His best - only - chance would be to talk the kid down and get him to see sense.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 09:38pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Ok Smart Guy. Mace is about to bring down the killing blow, Anakin blocks his lightsabre. Then what?
Everything I said applies to that situation. Violence would be the absolute last resort in that situation and if he had to resort to it then the situation would have span completely out of his control and became absolutely hopeless. Mace might be the biggest badass in the galaxy but against Anakin and Palpy? Fucked to the highest degree possible. His best - only - chance would be to talk the kid down and get him to see sense.

Palpatine is feigning near death, and as I said he continues this to observe Anakin's reactions in the fight. Maybe Mace sees this as his only opportunity, or feels that Palpatine is relatively incapacitated. And perhaps he realizes tha he's not going to be able to talk Anakin down. After all, he's trying to "talk Anakin down" right up to this point where his blow is blocked. By that point, you'd figure his option of diplomacy is probably gone. Remember, unlike Obi Wan who had an emotional attachment, Mace seems to me as someone who never liked Anakin for one reason or another.

Further, Mace just doesn't strike me as the type that would "calmly try to talk Anakin Down". He isn't your typical "calmly relaxed" Jedi type. If Anakin blocked his blow he could very well realize that he is in for the fight of his life. Anakin drawing on the darkside to defeat his opponent would draw parallels to Luke doing the same thing 20 some odd years later.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2005-06-20 09:55pm

Admiral_K wrote:
Palpatine is feigning near death, and as I said he continues this to observe Anakin's reactions in the fight. Maybe Mace sees this as his only opportunity, or feels that Palpatine is relatively incapacitated. And perhaps he realizes tha he's not going to be able to talk Anakin down. After all, he's trying to "talk Anakin down" right up to this point where his blow is blocked. By that point, you'd figure his option of diplomacy is probably gone. Remember, unlike Obi Wan who had an emotional attachment, Mace seems to me as someone who never liked Anakin for one reason or another.

Further, Mace just doesn't strike me as the type that would "calmly try to talk Anakin Down". He isn't your typical "calmly relaxed" Jedi type. If Anakin blocked his blow he could very well realize that he is in for the fight of his life. Anakin drawing on the darkside to defeat his opponent would draw parallels to Luke doing the same thing 20 some odd years later.

Mace is highly unlikely to fall for Palpatine's weak act. He's just seen the man cut down three Jedi Masters in the blink of an eye and the fact that he wasn't even going to try and arrest him suggests that Mace wasn't going to buy into anymore of Palpatine's bullshit. Anakin fell for it hook, line, and sinker but Anakin is gullible and has vested a great deal of trust in Palpatine that Mace has not. Even if he does believe that Palpatine is significantly weakened by the exertions of the battle, he would still not be foolish enough to believe that he could give the concentration required to defeat an opponent of Anakin's calibre without risking getting stabbed in the back or whatever by Palpatine. All it would take would be one little blast of Force Lightning while he was focussed on Anakin and he'd be dead.

You're right, Mace isn't the traditional Yoda type of Jedi but he'd have to be the biggest plonker on the face of the galaxy - bar Anakin - to go straight to the violence.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2005-06-20 10:05pm

Admiral_K wrote:Anakin drawing on the darkside to defeat his opponent would draw parallels to Luke doing the same thing 20 some odd years later.

Except the part about the Jedi goading the Jedi into turning evil for no reason that wasn't in ROTJ. If Mace suddenly broke character and started talking to Anakin during a fight, he would insist that he had authority over Anakin, not berate him like a schoolyard bully.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-06-20 10:09pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:.

You're right, Mace isn't the traditional Yoda type of Jedi but he'd have to be the biggest plonker on the face of the galaxy - bar Anakin - to go straight to the violence.

Mace doesn't go straight to the violence. He's already seen 3 of his fellow Jedi die fightig palpatine, as well as having palpy blast force lightning in his general direction, so he's already on edge, so much so that he's going to go "against the Jedi Way" and strike down an unarmed man.

Now, during this time he is participating in "diplomacy" with anakin, trying to keep him out of the fight. If anakin actually draws his lightsabre, Mace may feel that he is in a fight for his life, like it or not.

Now, in my script for the events, Palpatine continues to feign weakness, allowing Anakin to fight Mace. This gives way for Mace to achieve the typical over-confidence of Prequel Jedi and begin making his statements about how he knew Anakin was trouble, and how he knew something like this would happen. Thats when he incites Anakins rage.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 07:55am

I think the movie made it clear that Mace is an arrogant asshole. He doesn't care about violating the code right now. And his own fighting style draws into the darkside. HE is not going to be thinking clearly either. In his anger at Anakin's interferance, Mace may very well use the Darkside as well.