ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-20 08:46pm

Morilore wrote:
General Brock wrote:Since most of the Senate was already in his pocket by other means by now, going that extra mile for more sympathy points seems a little extreme.
It isn't over until the fat lady sings. When trying to make people mad at other people, it helps to have a visual aid for how evil those other people are.

The mere fact that it's four against one will automatically make any Republic audience sympathetic to Palpatine. One thing people are forgetting is Palpatine's phenomenal popularity; he is beloved by the people (read the novelization).

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-20 09:32pm

For my part I think the entire "backup" lightsabre thing is a bit suspect in the first place. In the novelization, Windu destroys Palpatine's lightsabre- in the movie, it drops out the window. He may well have had it retreived later. *shrug*

Depending on how far the thing fell and how resistant it is to breaking, of course. Of the little we see of his lightsabre while he's fighting Yoda, it looks the same as his original.

In any case, it's still absurd to say that Palpatine had two lightsabres on him in the Windu fight.

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-06-21 01:34am

I fail to see how Palpatine having a holdout saber proves that he is a better swordsman than Windu, or that he purposely threw the dueling portion of the fight.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 08:10am

He had one, the novelization makes that clear. The fact that he didn't use the backup lightsaber shows that he was throwing the fight. He could have easily used it to stab Windu or at least deflect his blow once Palpy's primary lightsaber was gone.

And I havn't seen the movie in a couple weeks, so your probably right about lightsaber in holster thing. But why couldn't he have two holsters?

And even if he doesn't have the backup on him, why can he not summon the lightsaber from behind Windu and impale him with it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-21 08:11am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He had one, the novelization makes that clear.

Wrong. Stop lying, fucktard. I'm running out of patience with you. The novelization does NOT say that he had a second lightsabre on him during the Windu fight, and your insistence on repeating this claim which you have utterly failed to back up with evidence grows tiresome.

As for your other bullshit, anything else he might have tried would have taken much longer than Windu cutting his fucking head off. Where the fuck did you come from, anyway? Wankers 'R Us?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 08:20am

I meant that the novelization made it clear that Palpatine had a 2nd lightsaber, though not nessecarily with him at the fight with Windu. ANd if Palpy was throwing hte fight, then him having the backup lightsaber with him (just in case) makes perfect sense.

Why can't Palpy impale WIndu from behind? Windu wouldn't be expecting it and he is already exhausted.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-21 08:30am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I meant that the novelization made it clear that Palpatine had a 2nd lightsaber, though not nessecarily with him at the fight with Windu. ANd if Palpy was throwing hte fight, then him having the backup lightsaber with him (just in case) makes perfect sense.

So unless you can prove that he did, it's better to err he DIDN'T have the item. Do you have proof he was going to THROW the fight before it began?

Why can't Palpy impale WIndu from behind? Windu wouldn't be expecting it and he is already exhausted.

Think for a second dumbshit...why did this never happen before with any Force user battle, or do you really need a chart?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2005-06-21 08:37am

I hate to reiterate the points here, but what people seem to be missing is that there is visual evidence that Windu won. We see him do it. We do not see Palpatine purposely move his lightsaber so that Windu can kick it away. We see Windu kick it away. That simple.

And on this second lightsaber stuff, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Palpy get his lightsaber from the same place in both fights?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 08:44am

No, in the novelization, Palpy had his original lightsaber in a neuranium statue, he then summoned it into his sleeve, where it later slid into his hand for the fight with Windu (and the other Jedi). His holdout lightsaber was in his sleeve already when he fought with Yoda.

Your visual evidence could show that Palpy made it appear that he was helpless but really still had another lightsaber in his sleeve just in case.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-21 08:53am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:No, in the novelization, Palpy had his original lightsaber in a neuranium statue, he then summoned it into his sleeve, where it later slid into his hand for the fight with Windu (and the other Jedi). His holdout lightsaber was in his sleeve already when he fought with Yoda.

Your visual evidence could show that Palpy made it appear that he was helpless but really still had another lightsaber in his sleeve just in case.

You and logic aren't bedfellows?

Prove your assertion dumbass....THROUGH logic, not giving random hypotheticals to go "It coulda!!!!"

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2005-06-21 09:44am

I don't get it.

Sidious won the fight convincingly. He blew Windu out the window, and Anakin got an assist.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-21 11:29am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:No, in the novelization, Palpy had his original lightsaber in a neuranium statue, he then summoned it into his sleeve, where it later slid into his hand for the fight with Windu (and the other Jedi). His holdout lightsaber was in his sleeve already when he fought with Yoda.

Your visual evidence could show that Palpy made it appear that he was helpless but really still had another lightsaber in his sleeve just in case.

You obviously don't understand how this works, so let me explain it to you one more time: you bear the burden of proof, and you have failed to satisfy it. You can hardly say that Palpatine was faking it because we can't prove it was impossible for him to be doing so; that is a fucking bullshit method of proof that wouldn't hold up anywhere outside of your own mind.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-21 11:37am

Palpantine was clearly getting owned by Windu until Annakin showed up. Windu was just a better fighter.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-21 11:38am

Flagg wrote:Palpantine was clearly getting owned by Windu until Annakin showed up. Windu was just a better fighter.

Actually it struck me as a surprise when Windu kicked the lightsabre out of his hands. There was no clear indication of who would win prior to me.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-21 12:07pm

Vympel wrote:
Flagg wrote:Palpantine was clearly getting owned by Windu until Annakin showed up. Windu was just a better fighter.
Actually it struck me as a surprise when Windu kicked the lightsabre out of his hands. There was no clear indication of who would win prior to me.

Well I was surprised because I always figured Palpantine was some kind of Uber-Sith. But it makes it cooler that he came that close to getting pasted.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 12:39pm

If Palpatine is throwing the fight and exposing himself to test Anakin (which I believe), then it makes perfect sense to have a backup lightsaber with him just in case. You say he was getting beat, we don't know that for sure. We are viewing the event completely differently. You don't have proof he didn't have it or that he wasn't throwing the fight other than the fact that he was knocked down, which I believe indicates he was throwing the fight. He didn't need to use the backup lightsaber, everything wen't exactly as Palpatine wanted it to go.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-21 12:45pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:If Palpatine is throwing the fight and exposing himself to test Anakin (which I believe), then it makes perfect sense to have a backup lightsaber with him just in case. You say he was getting beat, we don't know that for sure. We are viewing the event completely differently. You don't have proof he didn't have it or that he wasn't throwing the fight other than the fact that he was knocked down, which I believe indicates he was throwing the fight. He didn't need to use the backup lightsaber, everything wen't exactly as Palpatine wanted it to go.

Ah, trying to prove a negative. Most retards realize how dumb it's to go "well...he's was just fucking around...in the next second..." because you can't prove this.

Keep trying though.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 12:48pm

Can you prove he wasn't just waiting for Anakin to turn? This was the crucial moment of all of Palpatine's plans, he wanted to turn Anakin. IF he failed, he would die. It makes perfect sense for him to have a backup plan. He has one everywhere else.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-21 01:16pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Can you prove he wasn't just waiting for Anakin to turn? This was the crucial moment of all of Palpatine's plans, he wanted to turn Anakin. IF he failed, he would die. It makes perfect sense for him to have a backup plan. He has one everywhere else.

What part about "you can't prove a negative" eludes you?

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-21 02:20pm

TK 12746, get a fucking clue. You are proposing he threw the fight, therefor you have to prove it. Saying we can't prove he didn't throw the fight is useless. The burden of proof is on you, not us. Until proven otherwise, Palpatine didn't have his "back-up" lightsaber on him. If there is doubt as to whether something is there or not, logic dictates we assume it isn't until proven otherwise. Produce the quote, or the picture, or any hard evidence that he had it on him during the fight with Windu or shut the fuck up.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2005-06-21 02:43pm

YT300000 wrote:True, but those all took place feet away, almost certainly giving enough time for a Jedi with precog and Force enhanced speed to react. This was inches.

Although I admit its hardly conclusive, since I wasn't looking for that when I watched the scene, and will have to see it again to be sure, which will take a number of months. But I am quite sure that is what happened.

1. Jedi speed works both ways, attack and defence.
2. They were at strike range from a standing position.
3. Jedi precog effectrs in lightsabre battles is minimal. Or did you miss the part where two Jedi masters stand motionless while Palpatine lands "feet away" then performs a basic lung attack.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:If Palpatine is throwing the fight and exposing himself to test Anakin (which I believe), then it makes perfect sense to have a backup lightsaber with him just in case. You say he was getting beat, we don't know that for sure. We are viewing the event completely differently. You don't have proof he didn't have it or that he wasn't throwing the fight other than the fact that he was knocked down, which I believe indicates he was throwing the fight. He didn't need to use the backup lightsaber, everything wen't exactly as Palpatine wanted it to go.

The "making of" states vary clearly that he was LOSING, not throwing the fight. The only part you could successfully argue he was faking was his whining about being too weak since he clearly still had power. Doesn't mean he had the ability to turn the fight around however

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-21 03:05pm

Perhaps a sticky with a link to sites that detail the basics of logical discourse and debate should be placed at the top of the Pure Star Wars thread?

Lost Soal wrote:The "making of" states vary clearly that he was LOSING, not throwing the fight.

Though discussions here are typically made within suspension of disbelief, I think this pretty much dispels any Augie wankerage.

Flagg wrote:Well I was surprised because I always figured Palpantine was some kind of Uber-Sith. But it makes it cooler that he came that close to getting pasted.

Cykeisme wrote:I've believe that the reason why some folks hang on to the bizarre Palpatine wankerage delusions is because they feel that the stronger and less vulnerable the villain is, the greater the strength of the plot.

I disagree. That may be the case in a simpler story, but not here.
The fact is that Mace Windu could have ended the Sith threat right there and then, with a single stroke of his lightsaber... but Anakin stopped him. If it wasn't for this fact, some might say that Darth Sidious could have accomplished the Sith Order's goals even without Anakin Skywalker on his side. It wasn't so. The focus of the Star Wars saga, Anakin Skywalker, is a pivotal part of the fate of the galaxy.

You've basically used far fewer words to get an idea across, and you done it more effectively to boot. I feel inadequate.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2005-06-21 03:18pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Can you prove he wasn't just waiting for Anakin to turn? This was the crucial moment of all of Palpatine's plans, he wanted to turn Anakin. IF he failed, he would die. It makes perfect sense for him to have a backup plan. He has one everywhere else.

Palpatine has exposed himself to mortal danger before; he routinely does it even when he lacks the ability to reincarnate. What backup could he possibly have had when the Invisible Hand was breaking in half and crashlanding on Coruscant?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-21 05:28pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Can you prove he wasn't just waiting for Anakin to turn? This was the crucial moment of all of Palpatine's plans, he wanted to turn Anakin. IF he failed, he would die. It makes perfect sense for him to have a backup plan. He has one everywhere else.

Can you conclusively prove this one too? He really doesn't have that specific of a plan. In some cases he does but from Phantom Menace His Plans are a bit more static. Hell in the OT, it was even more so. Most ppl forget that he wanted Luke dead not on his side. Much of the OT Palpataine was playing it by ear and "striking where the Iron is hot".

Trooper TK12746 wrote:What were you getting at?

To Go back to your response from the First Page.
Basically That Darkside Rage is somewhat of a burst of Power that I guess only Jedi in a state of Distraught use to beat back Sith. Although it will lead to the Darkside, as it did with Luke Obi Wan and Mace. I think of it as a more risky power offensive that Jedi Use. Kinda vague.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-21 06:52pm

Can you conclusively prove this one too? He really doesn't have that specific of a plan. In some cases he does but from Phantom Menace His Plans are a bit more static. Hell in the OT, it was even more so. Most ppl forget that he wanted Luke dead not on his side. Much of the OT Palpataine was playing it by ear and "striking where the Iron is hot"

He agreed with Darth Vader to try to turn Luke, and as a contigency plan he sent Mara Jade on an assasination attempt. And during most of the OT, Palpatine had a contigency plan. When did he not have a contigency plan?

o Go back to your response from the First Page.
Basically That Darkside Rage is somewhat of a burst of Power that I guess only Jedi in a state of Distraught use to beat back Sith. Although it will lead to the Darkside, as it did with Luke Obi Wan and Mace. I think of it as a more risky power offensive that Jedi Use. Kinda vague.

Doesn't Vapaad turn that into an entire style of lightsaber combat? THat was what Mace was using during his fight with Palpatine.