Did Jedi Academy Game influce RotS Duels?

[Admiral_K]

I don't know if anyone else really caught this, but it seemed to me that many of the combat scenes in RotS seemed to look very similar to combat witnessed in the Jedi Academy Computer game. Specifically, the picking up of Obi Wan and slamming him into a wall, and the blasting of Mace Windu 100 feet out of a window. I looked at those and thought "Hey, I used those same tactics myself".

It just seemed that these were tactics not employed in past Star Wars Jedi Battles.

[Soontir C'boath]

It could just be the other way around with Lucas telling them to use those events to corroborate with the movie.

[Joe]

Yeah, Mace Windu's death scene immediately made me think of the Jed Outcast/Academy. I don't think it was a coincidence.

[Kurgan]

I don't know if anyone else really caught this, but it seemed to me that many of the combat scenes in RotS seemed to look very similar to combat witnessed in the Jedi Academy Computer game. Specifically, the picking up of Obi Wan and slamming him into a wall, and the blasting of Mace Windu 100 feet out of a window. I looked at those and thought "Hey, I used those same tactics myself".

It just seemed that these were tactics not employed in past Star Wars Jedi Battles.

I'm sure they could have gotten some bits thrown to them by Lucas. After all there was some similar bits in Jedi Outcast/AOTC. The famous "death from above" strong overhead flying saber attack, one handed lightning... but then there were others showing they were clueless, like the infamous TPM "sabers don't work in water, you idiot!" bit from the non-filmed deleted scene.

And TPM also gave us onscreen confirmation of "Force Speed" (and Force Push) that we'd long enjoyed in the JK series.

[000]

When Mace's little tap smashed the whole window to bits, the first thing I thought of was Jedi Outcast.

That, and the bowcasters' green bolts.

[Nephtys]

Yeah, Mace Windu's death scene immediately made me think of the Jed Outcast/Academy. I don't think it was a coincidence.

That's only because he fell to his death.

In Jedi Academy, I think out of the whole game, I only killed like.. 20 or so Dark Jedi with lightsabers. The other 500 were all flung off ledges, or force-choked and smashed repeatedly into the wall. Much easier, less mess.

Not to mention when you get level 3 Force Lightning, you can fling people with UNLIMITED POWER!!!!.

[Cykeisme]

Observation: The difference in the amount which a target is thrown backward by Lightning in JK2 and JKA is huge. In JK2 it just pushed the target back a little.. in JKA the sizzled victim is hurled backward incredible distances.. further than you could push him, really. Could someone have told Lucasarts to make high-powered lightning throw people around?

However, one thing that's always irked me is that you can't use your lightaber to block/deflect Lightning in the JK games. That seems to indicate that the level of collaboration wasn't that high.
On the other hand, is it just me, or do you take less damage from Lightning attacks when your saber is on in single-player JKA (but not JK2)? Can someone with the JKA SDK look through the code for me? Or just do practical testing, maybe.

Another hair-brained parallel I'd like make is that Obi-Wan and Anakin must have been using either Protect or Dark Rage when fighting in close proximity to the lava surface on Mustafar.
After losing his limbs, Anakin's injuries caused him to lose focus, dropping his ability.. and at that precise moment, he burst aflame! He started Raging later on as he lay there, which kept him alive in the period before Sidious arrived (he sure didn't climb any higher up the bank while we was being cooked).

The famous "death from above" strong overhead flying saber attack

Eh, maybe I'm in the midst of a brainfart, but which movie did this appear in?

one handed lightning

Well, your dude does lightning with one hand when he's holding his lit lightsaber. Switch off your saber and your character fires lightning from both hands, causing damage at twice the rate, but draining your Force bar twice as fast in true UNLIMITED POWER fashion.

When Mace's little tap smashed the whole window to bits, the first thing I thought of was Jedi Outcast.

After countless dozens of hours (possibly hundreds) of playing the games, it seemed so natural for the window to shatter like that when hit with a lightsaber that I didn't even think about that until now

bowcasters' green bolts.

It's possible that some computer artist(s) at ILM had played one of the Kyle Katarn games, and colored the bowcaster bolts green. Then it stuck because no higher-up asked for it changed to red or something.
That's just my theory, but think it's a pretty likely one, don't you think?

[Vympel]

Good luck coming up with a unified blaster bolt theory:

Naboo & Kashyyk handweapons and starfighter weapons: green

Grand Army/ Republic Starfleet weapons: blue & green

Imperial weapons: green and red

Separatist: red and purple

Rebel: red

Yup ... wierd.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Separatist: red and purple

And yellow. One of the spider droids on Utapau fired a distinctly yellow bolt. There's screencaps of it near the end of the RotS Revelations thread.

[Cykeisme]

That's the first time we've seen a yellow blaster bolt in the movies, and I'm glad. Provides vindication the yellow bolts from Kyle Katarn's sawn-off Bryar rifle.

It's interesting that Kyle's Bryar blaster in the first Dark Forces fired red bolts, though.

[Civil War Man]

The famous "death from above" strong overhead flying saber attack

Eh, maybe I'm in the midst of a brainfart, but which movie did this appear in?

I believe he is referring to the rather spectacular failure of an attack Anakin made against Obi-Wan. The one that got the rest of his limbs removed.

Movement very similar to the Jedi Academy jump attack. Single saber, medium stance, forward+jump+attack at the same time. You jump over the opponent's head and slash down at them while you're doing it.

[Kurgan]

Observation: The difference in the amount which a target is thrown backward by Lightning in JK2 and JKA is huge. In JK2 it just pushed the target back a little.. in JKA the sizzled victim is hurled backward incredible distances.. further than you could push him, really. Could someone have told Lucasarts to make high-powered lightning throw people around?

In Jedi Outcast you couldn't have super strong lightning with two hands. In Multiplayer there isn't the same heavy knockback factor like in Single Player. In SP you can toss bodies around like crazy with two handed lightning.

However, one thing that's always irked me is that you can't use your lightaber to block/deflect Lightning in the JK games. That seems to indicate that the level of collaboration wasn't that high.

From a game mechanics standpoint it makes sense. Why have sabers able to block lightning? It'd make lightning useless since most people would be fighting with their blade out (and the saber auto blocks blasters and blades). Lightning at high levels in both games isn't just a single aimed bolt, it's a fan of bolts, so it'd arc past the blade anyway (unless you're somehow Mace Windu).

Worse still, people have asked why you can't just block lightning with your hands like Yoda did! C'mon... the best these folks can hope for is Force Absorb.

On the other hand, is it just me, or do you take less damage from Lightning attacks when your saber is on in single-player JKA (but not JK2)? Can someone with the JKA SDK look through the code for me? Or just do practical testing, maybe.

I don't think that was the case, but it's been a long time since I played SP. The SP SDK for either game was never released.. only MP, sorry.

Another hair-brained parallel I'd like make is that Obi-Wan and Anakin must have been using either Protect or Dark Rage when fighting in close proximity to the lava surface on Mustafar.

Ah, but you never take heat proximety damage in either game. They were fine! You also never get tired in those games (or need to eat/sleep, etc).

After losing his limbs, Anakin's injuries caused him to lose focus, dropping his ability.. and at that precise moment, he burst aflame! He started Raging later on as he lay there, which kept him alive in the period before Sidious arrived (he sure didn't climb any higher up the bank while we was being cooked).

He was obviously in a damage sector and could have been pounding on the "heal" key. Rage would have reduced him to 1 hp, and then he'd be done-for! Palpy obviously had Team Heal though, so that saved his ass (dang Dark Jedi cheater, having Lightside powers!).

Still, if these were the games, he'd be history. Lost limbs only on death!

Eh, maybe I'm in the midst of a brainfart, but which movie did this appear in?

In the Geonosis Arena (AOTC), either Kit Fisto or some other unnamed male Jedi (probably the latter) leaps up on the air and lands his saber down on a battledroid, identical in form to the classic "DFA" (it's officially called a "Jump Attack" IIRC). Some folks on my forum actually yelled "DFA whore!" a little too loudly (out of habit I'm sure) in the theater on opening night I'm told.

Well, your dude does lightning with one hand when he's holding his lit lightsaber. Switch off your saber and your character fires lightning from both hands, causing damage at twice the rate, but draining your Force bar twice as fast in true UNLIMITED POWER fashion.

I'm thinking of MP, wherein you can only use two handed lightning if the following conditions are met:

1) Melee mode selected (ie: no lightsaber)
2) Level 3 Lightning Force power.

IIRC, in JK1/Mysteries of the Sith you used two hands to throw bolts (all of the "affect" Force powers had the same basic two handed "conjuring" animation).

After countless dozens of hours (possibly hundreds) of playing the games, it seemed so natural for the window to shatter like that when hit with a lightsaber that I didn't even think about that until now

Except for the windows made of Invinciglass (tm).

It's possible that some computer artist(s) at ILM had played one of the Kyle Katarn games, and colored the bowcaster bolts green. Then it stuck because no higher-up asked for it changed to red or something. That's just my theory, but think it's a pretty likely one, don't you think?

Could be. It's not a case of the games copying the movies, but quite the reverse!

[Kurgan]

Good luck coming up with a unified blaster bolt theory:

Naboo & Kashyyk handweapons and starfighter weapons: green

Grand Army/ Republic Starfleet weapons: blue & green

Imperial weapons: green and red

Separatist: red and purple

Rebel: red

Yup ... wierd.

It's quite simple really!

Blue = Unified Force / Padawan
Green = Living Force / Master
Red = Sith / Synthetic Crystals infused with the Dark Side of the Force!
Purple = cheater a$$


Oops, sorry, wrong hairbrained theory! drat

[Manus Celer Dei]

Someone should totally make an SD.net JA server. Or Clan.

It could just be the other way around with Lucas telling them to use those events to corroborate with the movie.

IIRC, JA came out only about six months after AOTC. Do you think that Lucas had already planned RotS out in that much detail?

[Mad]

Specifically, the picking up of Obi Wan and slamming him into a wall,

When Dooku did the Force-choke/throw into wall combo, I thought "hey, that's my move!" I seem to have heard the same Force sound effect playing at the same time.

[Flagg]

When Dooku force choked Obi Wan it looked like the animation was exactly the same.

[Manus Celer Dei]

When the hell did Dooku force-choke Obi-Wan?

[Flagg]

When the hell did Dooku force-choke Obi-Wan?

Right before he threw him into the wall and then dropped the raised walkway on him.

[The Grim Squeaker]

When the hell did Dooku force-choke Obi-Wan?

I think he means the part when he drop kicked him and used the force to knock him out of the fight

[Manus Celer Dei]

When the hell did Dooku force-choke Obi-Wan?

I think he means the part when he drop kicked him and used the force to knock him out of the fight

The fight in RotS, right. I was thinking about the one in AotC for some reason.

[Lord Revan]

When the hell did Dooku force-choke Obi-Wan?

when he throws him against a railing in the Invisible Hand (you can see Ewan or the GCI model puting his hand on his throat)

[Cykeisme]

In Jedi Outcast you couldn't have super strong lightning with two hands. In Multiplayer there isn't the same heavy knockback factor like in Single Player. In SP you can toss bodies around like crazy with two handed lightning.

You can blast a roomful of stormtroopers and have their corpses fly backward over tables and obstacles and even go straight up the walls, it was fucking crazy. God, I loved that.
I guess it's obvious why this level of knockback isn't seen in multiplayer

You're right about the lack of Lightning/Lightsaber interaction making Lightning near-useless in multiplayer. However, I'm still certain that the game works that way because they didn't have time to put it in. Level 2 Lightning at least should be blockable.
As a related aside, I've always wished that lightsaber defense required more player involvement. For example, blocking lightning could require the player to hold their crosshair directly on the enemy; that would be balanced, movie-like, and fun, would you not say?

Force Absorb in the game is actually more powerful than what Yoda did. Yoda uses his hands while concentrating, whereas with Absorb, you can pretty much take a lightning bolt up the butthole and suck it all up. Admittedly, Yoda could toss it back, while in the game you can't unless you already have the ability to use Lightning (and I'm sure Yoda doesn't).

(Rage and stuff)

I surmised that although Rage damages your health, it does so at a much lower rate than barbequeing does. I doubt Anakin would've lasted much longer if Palps hadn't shown up, too. Not solid logic, but oh well
Good point about in-game lava never damaging you even if you're an inch away from it, though I guess it's in the same vein as not needing to eat, yeah

Btw, Kurgan, those last two quotes in your post are mine, not Gladius'. Quote tag hiccups abound

[Kurgan]

Someone should totally make an SD.net JA server. Or Clan.

It could just be the other way around with Lucas telling them to use those events to corroborate with the movie.

IIRC, JA came out only about six months after AOTC. Do you think that Lucas had already planned RotS out in that much detail?

AOTC = May 2002
JA = September 2003

Maybe you're thinking of Jedi Outcast (JK2)? That came out in March 2002.

[Kurgan]

In Jedi Outcast you couldn't have super strong lightning with two hands. In Multiplayer there isn't the same heavy knockback factor like in Single Player. In SP you can toss bodies around like crazy with two handed lightning.

You can blast a roomful of stormtroopers and have their corpses fly backward over tables and obstacles and even go straight up the walls, it was fucking crazy. God, I loved that.
I guess it's obvious why this level of knockback isn't seen in multiplayer

Yeah I remember as Kyle you'd encounter a Squad of Stormtroopers near the end of the game when you were pretty high powered... One Force Pull and they all lose their guns and fall forward on their faces. Then a Force Push and they all go flying. Leap up in the air and Force Pull, and they all go flying up in the air, then scream as they fall to their deaths on the ground. Classic!

MP was much more restrained, for balance-sake. The effect of powers was mostly confined to a single person, with multiple counters available, and toned down. Then again MP also had powers that SP lacked (this changed with JA, wherein all but two were finally usable in SP).

You're right about the lack of Lightning/Lightsaber interaction making Lightning near-useless in multiplayer. However, I'm still certain that the game works that way because they didn't have time to put it in.

Doubtful, since they had 1 1/2 years to add it into JA or one of the patches for either game and they didn't do it. Granted, when JA came out it was clear some things got nixed due to time, but still. I figure they felt it would have been simply redundant.

Level 2 Lightning at least should be blockable.

All lightning is blockable with Absorb. The thing is, Raven made the game to be playable, balanced and fun, not duplicate the movies. The JK series is notoriously out of synch with the films in that they give Jedi warriors blasters, explosives, personal shields, etc. It was nice to finally see a fully trained Jedi Master use a non-saber weapon in ROTS though.

So while it might be cool to pretend you're Yoda for a minute I'm kind of glad they didn't throw in yet another way to make sabers uber and lightning useless. But that's me... I'm a fan of the series (the JK series is a part of the EU I really enjoy!).

As a related aside, I've always wished that lightsaber defense required more player involvement. For example, blocking lightning could require the player to hold their crosshair directly on the enemy; that would be balanced, movie-like, and fun, would you not say?

Dozens of mod makers feel as you do, and they've all created their own saber modified system. Some people use a block button, or a "dodge/block meter" etc. (see "Masters of the Force" and "ProMod" for Jedi Outcast, or Open Jedi Project for Jedi Academy for examples). There have been all sorts of alternate systems. Personally I perfer the arcade style controls that are a cut above the majority of blade fighting computer games, but still pretty Street Fighter-ish. A game that had really deep blade combat was the Bushido Blade series on the PSX.

Force Absorb in the game is actually more powerful than what Yoda did. Yoda uses his hands while concentrating, whereas with Absorb, you can pretty much take a lightning bolt up the butthole and suck it all up.

Well come to think of it, most of the game powers are much more impressive than the movie powers we see (but not quite so cosmicly godlike as that seen in Clone Wars). This is true throughout the series (though the prequels made some of the JK powers a little more commonplace for G-Level Jedi/Sith).

Admittedly, Yoda could toss it back, while in the game you can't unless you already have the ability to use Lightning (and I'm sure Yoda doesn't).

I still don't see the problem with letting Yoda throw lightning. I mean it goes against the game sense of strict alignment along a balanced yin/yang type of Force dichotomy, but still...

There is a game precedent for people using a mix of Dark and Light powers. In Jedi Outcast you could use both in Single Player, and there was only one ending (Light Side). In Mysteries of the Sith the same was true. In JK1 you could reduce your Force Level to 6 (Disciple) on a Level 6 or higher server and gain access to fewer powers, but a mix of Dark & Light (Force Throw, Grip, and Lightning on one side, and Heal, Blind and Persuasion on the other.. iirc, you gained Absorb/Destruction on Level 7, but you then had to go straight Light or Dark in MP, ditto for .

So Yoda throws lightning once in awhile. Luke uses grip once in awhile. Neither are "Dark Jedi" or "Sith." No biggie for me.

In the games they could have made it so that if you lightning an Absorb user (they have to target you to block it) the lightning you throw automatically bounces back and hurts you.. with a Yoda-like animation... but again, they chose not to, and to just give the target back mana instead.

(Rage and stuff)

I surmised that although Rage damages your health, it does so at a much lower rate than barbequeing does.[/quote]

But Rage also makes you invulnerable (except to environmental crushing/impact damage and bottomless pits). I don't recall if this was changed between SP and MP and the transition from JK2 to JA, but it was there in the beginning at least. In the game Rune, your "bloodlust" can be reduced faster by heaping on the damage, but I'm not sure that you can really reduce a person's health with Rage until it peters out on its own.

I doubt Anakin would've lasted much longer if Palps hadn't shown up, too. Not solid logic, but oh well

It's interesting that the fire actually went out after it had burned his clothes, hair and glove. Did he regain his concentration to block the heat with the Force? As Phil Plait would say... he should have been a wisp of vapor, had he not had some magical way to protect himself without a heat-proof suit!

Good point about in-game lava never damaging you even if you're an inch away from it, though I guess it's in the same vein as not needing to eat, yeah

I loved how in JK1/MotS Force Speeding into walls and Force Leaping straight up in the air and landing hard or Force Jumping into a low ceiling would hurt you. I guess the Jedi in the JK2/JA era just learned extra precision to cushion themselves with the Force.

Btw, Kurgan, those last two quotes in your post are mine, not Gladius'. Quote tag hiccups abound

Sorry about that!

[Admiral Drason]

I was playing Jedi Acadamy last week and every time I would zap a dark Jedi off a ledge I would say UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!