Does anyone actually think the Empire could loose

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-06-21 11:15pm

Do any Trekkies actually still think the Federation could defeat the Empire? Not just beat it in a limited campaign but actually take on the full might of the Empire and win?
It just doesn't make sense to me. It's one thing to think that, say, the Enterprise could take out a Star Destroyer but how can anyone think a collection of a few hundred planets that occupies one corner of its galaxy can beat an empire that spans its entire galaxy? As far as I know nobody does. Even Darkstar and his ilk readily admit the Federation would be defeated in a no-holds-barred fight, they only disagree with us when it comes down to how much of a bloody nose they'd give them before going down.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-21 11:18pm

When one believes that the Enterprise-E by itself can destroy 200 or more star destroyers in pitched battle by itself, one can believe a great deal (see Portal.)

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-06-22 01:41am

If Grahm Kennedy still believes his Portal fanfic is accurate (he even had the audacity to say that a realistic scenario would be even more in favor of the Federation!) he would count as one. I'm also pretty sure we could find some more Trektards if we really tried.

PurpleTattoo · Post by **PurpleTattoo** » 2005-06-22 02:15am

Maybe they're counting on help from Q or the future federation, or something equally silly.

There's always the technobabble solution as a last resort.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-06-22 02:21am

The thing is that those who believe that the Federation could win simply don't accept any evidence beyond their own interpretation of selected events within the movies, and there will forever be those who latch onto certain events (and certain interpretations) and never, ever let go.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2005-06-22 02:45am

Uraniun235 wrote:The thing is that those who believe that the Federation could win simply don't accept any evidence beyond their own interpretation of selected events within the movies, and there will forever be those who latch onto certain events (and certain interpretations) and never, ever let go.

Indeed.

Just go to Trek.com's boards... you'll see what Uraniun is talking about.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-06-22 10:15am

One only needs to see he-who-will-not-be-named's website, as well as his disciple's version of bizarro SD.net, to see that the pro-Trek bastion is still there.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 11:14am

There are plenty of full-blown Trektards around; they just can't mount a decent argument to save their lives, that's all. That's why Graham Kennedy has adopted the tactic of simply refusing to argue his position, and Darktard/Bernd Schneider have adopted the tactic of ranting and raving about what a bad person I am (and in Darktard's case, surrounding himself with obviously uneducated children who feel the same way he does).

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 11:35am

Bernd Schneider is involved in the vs debate?

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 11:36am

Gordonfrost wrote:Bernd Schneider is involved in the vs debate?

I didn't know that either.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 11:38am

Gordonfrost wrote:Bernd Schneider is involved in the vs debate?

No. But he has an opinion on it, which he elucidated to me via E-mail several years ago. I remember that one of his linchpin claims was that any "field-based" technology must have perfect accuracy by definition, hence it's impossible for phasers to miss. His other dumb-shit argument was to say that Imperial starships are less realistic than Federation starships because they have a "big fireplace" at the back which makes them go, while Federation starships have more realistic warp nacelles. Where he got the fucktarded idea that warp nacelles were "realistic" is a mystery, because when challenged, he never explained it. He only repeated it a couple of times and then changed the subject to "you are a mean, mean, very bad person".

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 11:53am

No. But he has an opinion on it, which he elucidated to me via E-mail several years ago. I remember that one of his linchpin claims was that any "field-based" technology must have perfect accuracy by definition, hence it's impossible for phasers to miss. His other dumb-shit argument was to say that Imperial starships are less realistic than Federation starships because they have a "big fireplace" at the back which makes them go, while Federation starships have more realistic warp nacelles. Where he got the fucktarded idea that warp nacelles were "realistic" is a mystery, because when challenged, he never explained it. He only repeated it a couple of times and then changed the subject to "you are a mean, mean, very bad person".

That's so funny. He's totally shit scared of you now. Whenever someone on his board mentions you or starts anything that comes close to a vs debate he locks it and says how afraid he is that you'll "invade" the board.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-22 12:07pm

Personally I don't see how anyone could argue for Federation "victory" even if we didn't even begin to discuss firepower. You'd have to be a moron to think that a power with 1,000,000 star systems and the ability to construct moon sized armored battlestations could ever lose a military conflict with a puny 150-world federation.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-06-22 12:17pm

That's so funny. He's totally shit scared of you now. Whenever someone on his board mentions you or starts anything that comes close to a vs debate he locks it and says how afraid he is that you'll "invade" the board.

Vs debates have the habit of turning very nasty, very fast. It's just a board rule to keep the peace.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 12:21pm

I can think of only one method that might work.

Look up one of the various Universe/Galaxy ending threats of the week and try to replicate it artifically. If Trek and Wars are in different universes connected by wormholes or something, that could work.

Example :
That rather stupid TOS episode where a guy from an antimatter universe kept fighting with his matter counterpart. There was a stated danger of universal merger and annihilation.

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 12:49pm

Bounty wrote:
That's so funny. He's totally shit scared of you now. Whenever someone on his board mentions you or starts anything that comes close to a vs debate he locks it and says how afraid he is that you'll "invade" the board.
Vs debates have the habit of turning very nasty, very fast. It's just a board rule to keep the peace.

Not true. On a topic discussing the vs debate on SCN one of the chief moderators (Madcat) of the board said this:

"That board threatened to and actually DID come over here and en masse invade the forum, as if we didn't have the right to badmouth them on OUR board. Pretty pretentious and beligerent, ay? In order to prevent Wong and his ilk from coming over here again, all VS topics are closed, especially Trek vs. Wars."

The debates are banned because they are afraid of SD.net.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 12:49pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:I can think of only one method that might work.

Look up one of the various Universe/Galaxy ending threats of the week and try to replicate it artifically. If Trek and Wars are in different universes connected by wormholes or something, that could work.

Example :
That rather stupid TOS episode where a guy from an antimatter universe kept fighting with his matter counterpart. There was a stated danger of universal merger and annihilation.

Of course, one could always point out that this interpretation could have been wrong. It was, as you say, a rather stupid episode.

Besides, this kind of preposterous logic could be used to defeat anyone. "Hey, the Federation should easily crush the Voth, the Borg, and the Dominion together, because of <insert one-episode wonder here>!"

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-22 12:55pm

Vympel wrote:Personally I don't see how anyone could argue for Federation "victory" even if we didn't even begin to discuss firepower. You'd have to be a moron to think that a power with 1,000,000 star systems and the ability to construct moon sized armored battlestations could ever lose a military conflict with a puny 150-world federation.

The Time Lords had at most, ten planets.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 12:57pm

Gordonfrost wrote:
Bounty wrote:
That's so funny. He's totally shit scared of you now. Whenever someone on his board mentions you or starts anything that comes close to a vs debate he locks it and says how afraid he is that you'll "invade" the board.
Vs debates have the habit of turning very nasty, very fast. It's just a board rule to keep the peace.
Not true. On a topic discussing the vs debate on SCN one of the chief moderators (Madcat) of the board said this:

"That board threatened to and actually DID come over here and en masse invade the forum, as if we didn't have the right to badmouth them on OUR board. Pretty pretentious and beligerent, ay? In order to prevent Wong and his ilk from coming over here again, all VS topics are closed, especially Trek vs. Wars."

The debates are banned because they are afraid of SD.net.

I like the way they act as though going over there and debating them, even if we obey their civility rules, is somehow tantamount to an assault which must be kept away at all costs. Tells you a lot about their mentality.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 12:58pm

Besides, this kind of preposterous logic could be used to defeat anyone. "Hey, the Federation should easily crush the Voth, the Borg, and the Dominion together, because of <insert one-episode wonder here>!"

I know, I know.

Basically, I concede the Federation could never win a realistic fight; even if they had superior firepower, War has the numbers and speed to just pile on them like an avalanche.

If Trek is to win, it needs to "cheat" with a one-episode wonder or bring in the ill-defined god races like Q or the Dowd.

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 01:05pm

The SCN are a bunch of cowardly trektards who think it's ok to bitch about SD.net and slander the debaters here without having to face the consequences.

Further proof of their fear and hatred of SD.net, they banned Alyeska for nothing more than debating rationally. http://scn.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f ... 553963/p/3

The board is the nth level of hell for any non-trektard but they recently added a star wars forum and are increasingly disrespectful of SD.net. I've even heard some of the more fanatical members planning to come over here and cause problems. Unless we do something about them they will become a growing threat to the peace of this community.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-06-22 01:13pm

The SCN are a bunch of cowardly trektards who think it's ok to bitch about SD.net and slander the debaters here without having to face the consequences.

SDN is very low on their list of priorities.

Further proof of their fear and hatred of SD.net, they banned Alyeska for nothing more than debating rationally.

And he was promptly unbanned.

I've even heard some of the more fanatical members planning to come over here and cause problems.

That was one overzealous newbie. Nobody there is interested in "causing problems".

Unless we do something about them they will become a growing threat to the peace of this community.

What the fuck ? You can dislike them all you want, but they're about as far from a "threat" to SDN as you can get.

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 01:16pm

Some of their members are happy to call in various internet based attacks that violate the privacy of anyone who opposes them. The administrators of the board have already felt what it's like to suffer the consequences of their attacks on you, Lord Wong, but they aren't afraid to stir up anti SD.net hatred amongst their less experienced members. Just look at how militant some of them can get when someone offends them in the slightest. http://scn.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f ... 362963/p/2

From reading the board and hearing the increasingly aggressive tone of the members I can' help but feel that they're planning something.

Gordonfrost · Post by **Gordonfrost** » 2005-06-22 01:20pm

Bounty wrote:
The SCN are a bunch of cowardly trektards who think it's ok to bitch about SD.net and slander the debaters here without having to face the consequences.
SDN is very low on their list of priorities.

Further proof of their fear and hatred of SD.net, they banned Alyeska for nothing more than debating rationally.
And he was promptly unbanned.

I've even heard some of the more fanatical members planning to come over here and cause problems.
That was one overzealous newbie. Nobody there is interested in "causing problems".

Unless we do something about them they will become a growing threat to the peace of this community.
What the fuck ? You can dislike them all you want, but they're about as far from a "threat" to SDN as you can get.

That's interesting how defensive you get whenever someone makes the slightest criticism of their board, almost as if you were a member there.

The second SCN looks like anything other than the perfect federation bridge crew the agents of Schneider reveal their aggression.

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2005-06-22 01:21pm

Gordonfrost wrote:Some of their members are happy to call in various internet based attacks that violate the privacy of anyone who opposes them. The administrators of the board have already felt what it's like to suffer the consequences of their attacks on you, Lord Wong, but they aren't afraid to stir up anti SD.net hatred amongst their less experienced members. Just look at how militant some of them can get when someone offends them in the slightest. http://scn.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f ... 362963/p/2

From reading the board and hearing the increasingly aggressive tone of the members I can' help but feel that they're planning something.

You are Sendell you nut.

You got banned for the what was it? 11? sockpupets you made.