Let us see the power of prayer!

[Faram]

Billy Graham has parkinson and prostatacancer.

Now he is having a giant sermon in NY

Link

Anyone taking bets if God cures him or not?

[mr friendly guy]

Does any one actually go up to these evangelists and ask them to pray and see whether it cures them or not. Because it would be funny is someone tried.

[The Spartan]

It wouldn't make a difference. If his cancer went into remission, it would be a miracle from god. On the other hand, if he simply dies, it means that "it was his time" and that "god was calling him home" or "it was gods plan and he works in mysterious ways" etc. ad infinitum.

[Lagmonster]

You can imagine how much the Biblical god would be likely to intervene on a preacher's behalf considering what he had done to his own avatar.

[Firefox]

It wouldn't make a difference. If his cancer went into remission, it would be a miracle from god. On the other hand, if he simply dies, it means that "it was his time" and that "god was calling him home" or "it was gods plan and he works in mysterious ways" etc. ad infinitum.

Another reason I question the purpose of prayer in Christian fundamentalism. If everything happens "according to God's plan", why the fuck go through the effort of making inane requests that may or may not conflict with said plan? Isn't it an exercise in futility to ask God to save someone's life when he's supposed to die?

[The Spartan]

Another reason I question the purpose of prayer in Christian fundamentalism. If everything happens "according to God's plan", why the fuck go through the effort of making inane requests that may or may not conflict with said plan? Isn't it an exercise in futility to ask God to save someone's life when he's supposed to die?

To say nothing of his supposed omniscience. If he knows what we want or need, why do we have to ask him?

[Melchior]

To say nothing of his supposed omniscience. If he knows what we want or need, why do we have to ask him?

"Because of our sins"
Or, more likely, because he is a narcissistic prick.
Anyway, let's remeber that true omnipotence is a paradox.

[The Grim Squeaker]

To say nothing of his supposed omniscience. If he knows what we want or need, why do we have to ask him?

"Because of our sins"
Or, more likely, because he is a narcissistic prick.
Anyway, let's remeber that true omnipotence is a paradox.

The infinite rock.

[Tashi Yoshima]

Billy Graham has parkinson and prostatacancer.

Now he is having a giant sermon in NY

Link

Anyone taking bets if God cures him or not?

Personally I have my doubts as to Billy Graham's validity as a "prayer prophet" or whatever he is calling himself. I think his whole cause is too focused on getting income from people coming to have him pray or give a speech... though, prayer itself has been proven to work, whether through a deity or through the combined wills of many people putting into effect a desired result. Lots of people argue prayer is a way to focus your desires so that they ultimately become real... like, if you pray you'll do well on a test, you are assured you will get a positive answer and your mind therefore creates the feeling that you will indeed do well, and your performance is good.

I myself doubt this is how prayer works (I'm more the deity-believing type)... but it does get results however it works.

Billy Graham himself... I doubt has as much healing powers through prayer as he claims.

[Darth Wong]

though, prayer itself has been proven to work, whether through a deity or through the combined wills of many people putting into effect a desired result.

Wrong. There is no evidence whatsoever showing that prayer has any more effect than placebo. One study attempted to prove this but they used cherry-picking of results in order to make it SEEM as if there had been improvement over the control group. And the simple FACT is that Christians do not have net statistical survival advantages over others, even though it's obvious that they would pray much more.

[Crossroads Inc.]

It is all moot really... The Great Grahm will simply say:
"Well, your prays together Could cure me with the power of God... I think it's time I left this world to go meet God directly"

[Tashi Yoshima]

though, prayer itself has been proven to work, whether through a deity or through the combined wills of many people putting into effect a desired result.

Wrong. There is no evidence whatsoever showing that prayer has any more effect than placebo. One study attempted to prove this but they used cherry-picking of results in order to make it SEEM as if there had been improvement over the control group. And the simple FACT is that Christians do not have net statistical survival advantages over others, even though it's obvious that they would pray much more.

Yeah, I'm not saying that "net statistical advantages" are there...

And I guess I'm a prideful dumb n00b, because I have no response, yet I don't want to admit it. ><' But I did anyways...

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

though, prayer itself has been proven to work

No, it hasn't. There is nothing that suggests that prayer has any effect on the people being prayed for. Results purporting to show that prayer has an effect come about either because the researchers were tracking so many variables that probability suggested that the odds of a coincidental, but unrelated positive result were abnormally high, or that the researchers committed unwitting or blatant fraud by specifically mining the data for hits, and discarding the failures.(1,2) Furthermore, the media overinflates the curative powers of prayer through positive-outcome bias, where they emphasize stories with a favorable outcome, while not hyping the stories with a negative outcome.

whether through a deity or through the combined wills of many people putting into effect a desired result.

No legitimate scientific research demonstrates that any evidence for psychic powers (which would be the claimed method by which prayer works, if one excludes the existence of a supernatural being.)

Lots of people argue prayer is a way to focus your desires so that they ultimately become real... like, if you pray you'll do well on a test, you are assured you will get a positive answer and your mind therefore creates the feeling that you will indeed do well, and your performance is good.

One can also be decieved into believing praying for, say, a good outcome on a test through confirmation bias where you selectively remember the few times that you happened to do well on a test that you prayed for, while forgetting the times where you bombed a test in spite of prayer, or forgetting that you spent the last week studying for the test you did well in.

[1123581321]

where you selectively remember the few times that you happened to do well on a test that you prayed for, while forgetting the times where you bombed a test in spite of prayer, or forgetting that you spent the last week studying for the test you did well in.

Back when I used to go to fundie elementary school, that was one of the "what's the point" moments when I was told I had to pray to do well, but that I also had to meet God half way by studying. I eventually figured out that study and no prayer worked just as well.

[mr friendly guy]

It wouldn't make a difference. If his cancer went into remission, it would be a miracle from god. On the other hand, if he simply dies, it means that "it was his time" and that "god was calling him home" or "it was gods plan and he works in mysterious ways" etc. ad infinitum.

Another reason I question the purpose of prayer in Christian fundamentalism. If everything happens "according to God's plan", why the fuck go through the effort of making inane requests that may or may not conflict with said plan? Isn't it an exercise in futility to ask God to save someone's life when he's supposed to die?

I bet you they will then "shift the goalposts" and say that the prayer is only to help them when they get into heaven / or just to talk to God, as opposed to asking God to help them right now in this mortal life.

[Darth Wong]

If you've ever attended a church, particularly one with a lot of older members, you get used to being regularly asked to pray for somebody who's in the hospital. When the person passes away anyway, nobody ever gets up at the front of the church and admits that the prayer didn't work

[Surlethe]

Another reason I question the purpose of prayer in Christian fundamentalism. If everything happens "according to God's plan", why the fuck go through the effort of making inane requests that may or may not conflict with said plan? Isn't it an exercise in futility to ask God to save someone's life when he's supposed to die?

I've asked that. The general response I get is along the lines of "because He [always with a capital "H"!] likes to hear us pray", which completely avoids the point of the question. As far as I can recall, I've never gotten a straight answer on the subject.

However, if prayer is thought of as aggrandizement, we must remember that the fundie lives to suck God's cock, so the fundie is going to say anything that he thinks God will like. Thus, if he thinks God wants prayer, he is going to give God prayer regardless of whether or not it will actually do anything.

[Darth Wong]

Another reason I question the purpose of prayer in Christian fundamentalism. If everything happens "according to God's plan", why the fuck go through the effort of making inane requests that may or may not conflict with said plan? Isn't it an exercise in futility to ask God to save someone's life when he's supposed to die?

I've asked that. The general response I get is along the lines of "because He [always with a capital "H"!] likes to hear us pray", which completely avoids the point of the question. As far as I can recall, I've never gotten a straight answer on the subject.

However, if prayer is thought of as aggrandizement, we must remember that the fundie lives to suck God's cock, so the fundie is going to say anything that he thinks God will like. Thus, if he thinks God wants prayer, he is going to give God prayer regardless of whether or not it will actually do anything.

Fundies are kind of like the little wormy bastards who hung around with the schoolyard bully when you were a kid. They would beat people up in the bully's name and gang up on anyone who was not sufficiently respectful to the bully. But ultimately, while they rallied around the bully, he was usually nothing more than a big moron, and a symbolic one at that. He rarely got involved in any actual fighting directly. The real terrorizing and cruelty came from his entourage of vile hangers-on, who used fear of the bully to keep the little people in line. So it is with fundies.

[chaoschristian]

Speaking for myself here, and not for all of Christianity . . .

The point of prayer is not to present God with your laundry list of daily demands, or to point out how the world is not going your way and would You kindly straighten it all out - RIGHT NOW!

The point and power of prayer is in setting yourself before God in an attempt to empty yourself of yourself, to connect to God, and through Him connect to His creation.

It is a discipline, a necessary discipline, in one's attempt to form a relationship with God and to listen to that still, quiet voice of guidance.

I am empathetic with the frustration voiced here over how prayer is presented and supposedly 'proved.' It all just misses the point, in my opinion.

That said, prayer is a necessary part of being a part of creation for a Christian. It is just one of many important disciplines that must be exercised for a healthy spiritual life. It is important because it helps us to connect to God and perhaps to begin, in some childish, extremely dimished way, to understand His nature and will.

Notice, I said nature and will, not plan. Prayer is one way we can prepare ourselves for dealing with life. Billy Graham is ill, and I am sure that his lifetime of prayer has conditioned and prepared him for dealing with his illness and will continue to support him through this stage of his life. So may that be for all of us.

Perhaps you don't trust Graham. So be it. For me he is a mixed bag, but that is besides the point.

The point is that just as a disciplined athelete conditioners herself to be at peak performance for the big event, so must a Christian condition herself through prayer and other disciplines to be at peak performance for life.

Again, I am saddened at the state of modern American Christianity and how its misguided efforts have effected itself and those arround it. Being a Christian gives you absolutely no insight into God's plans - none, nada, zip. You cannot, as a Christian, know God's plan or plans. You can begin to understand His intent - which is pretty constant - and how that has an impact on your life, and lives of those around you and in the world in general. But, please, do not be so arrogant as to claim that being a Christian gives one some special status or knowledge of creation - it just ain't so.

[McC]

The point is that just as a disciplined athelete conditioners herself to be at peak performance for the big event, so must a Christian condition herself through prayer and other disciplines to be at peak performance for life.

Why must Christians go through the extra step of prayer to achieve peak performance for life, when atheists and agnostics achieve peak performance for life just as well without prayer?

[chaoschristian]

Why must Christians go through the extra step of prayer to achieve peak performance for life, when atheists and agnostics achieve peak performance for life just as well without prayer?

Therein lies the difference: our definitions for that will be different. Which is fine. I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe.

And prayer is just one part of it, it is just one of the disciplines. There's also readind the Bible, worshipping in community, fasting, tithing, silence, aiding the poor, sick and imprisoned - to name a few.

Why must we (Christians) do this? Because the one in whom we put our faith lived his life that way as an example for us to follow.

Finally, why define it as an extra step? I would define it as a necessary step.

[Darth Wong]

Why must Christians go through the extra step of prayer to achieve peak performance for life, when atheists and agnostics achieve peak performance for life just as well without prayer?

Therein lies the difference: our definitions for that will be different. Which is fine. I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe.

And prayer is just one part of it, it is just one of the disciplines. There's also readind the Bible, worshipping in community, fasting, tithing, silence, aiding the poor, sick and imprisoned - to name a few.

Why must we (Christians) do this? Because the one in whom we put our faith lived his life that way as an example for us to follow.

Finally, why define it as an extra step? I would define it as a necessary step.

Hey, if you want to waste your time doing that stuff, more power to you. But I hope you don't believe in discriminating against people who don't. An awful lot of Christians tried to break up my marriage because of that "unequally yoked" bullshit in the Bible.

[McC]

And prayer is just one part of it, it is just one of the disciplines. There's also readind the Bible, worshipping in community, fasting, tithing, silence, aiding the poor, sick and imprisoned - to name a few.

Show me a Christian who read the Bible fully, and I'll show you an atheist or a bigot.

Why must we (Christians) do this? Because the one in whom we put our faith lived his life that way as an example for us to follow.

Last time I checked, Jesus was a Jew. You want to follow his footsteps, be a Jew.

Finally, why define it as an extra step? I would define it as a necessary step.

Provide empirical evidence, then. I appear to be quite alive, healthy, and happy without this step. By those measures, it is unnecessary.

[chaoschristian]

But I hope you don't believe in discriminating against people who don't. An awful lot of Christians tried to break up my marriage because of that "unequally yoked" bullshit in the Bible.

DW: no I do not. And while I cannot apologize for what happened to you, I am saddened by it.

[McC]

Show me a Christian who read the Bible fully, and I'll show you an atheist or a bigot.

Amendment: or someone who isn't a "Christian" according to the doctrine s/he claims to follow. I know plenty of "Catholics" that aren't really Catholic. They simply were 'brought up' Catholic and 'sort of' believe in the general notions of Christ and all that, but don't buy into the dogma and institution.