Why use clones over droids?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-06-22 12:23pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:At the end of the Clone Wars, the droids were shut down completely. Palpatine's death didn't actually kill anyone.

They were shut down by giving the "order" from the Mustafar control bunker (the CIS stronghold), which Vader had direct access to, via Sideous. Blowing up a control ship or killing Grevious didn't cause the droids to shut down. Even destroying all the control ships would just kick in the backups, right? So the troops would be less coordinated, but still a threat. The order to shut down and a forced shutdown are different things, I'm guessing.

Plus after the shutdown the droids could be re-activated, they didn't fall apart like some of the (pre-damaged?) droids in TPM. Likewise the Imperial troops suffered loss of coordination and morale after Palpatine's death. They obviously could regroup later and keep fighting (via the Imperial Remnant in the EU).

Clone and Stormie armor is impervious to NBC weapons.

I wouldn't say impervious, perhaps just resistant is better. If they were, they wouldn't need special Rad Trooper units and such. Likewise it implies a no-limits fallacy... If you were to drop a nuke on a platoon of Troopers marching along, they'd die. The protection just refers to the after affects of such like limited exposure to radiation or poison gas.

Something like the gas emitted from R2D2's dome is apparently enough to confuse them and throw off their aim...

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 12:53pm

It caught the droids by suprise.

The small groups of specialty troopers were for exceptionally high doses of radiation, extreme cold, extreme heat, and unusual environments/terrain.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 03:39pm

I vote for cultural reasons.

The Star Wars races probably have their own versions of the Terminator movies were the machines revolt and kill everybody,but with a difference:

Star Wars droids really could, they aren't hypothetical like SKYNET.

Given that droids are a servitor "race", treated as property, the Star Wars folk probably have plenty of paranoid fantasies about the worker droids arming themselves and forming the Droid Liberation Front. A real droid army composed of real war-droids must have been less scary than a clone army, even though the clones in reality could also be subverted (i.e. Order 66).

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-22 03:43pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:I vote for cultural reasons.

The Star Wars races probably have their own versions of the Terminator movies were the machines revolt and kill everybody,but with a difference:

Star Wars droids really could, they aren't hypothetical like SKYNET.

Given that droids are a servitor "race", treated as property, the Star Wars folk probably have plenty of paranoid fantasies about the worker droids arming themselves and forming the Droid Liberation Front. A real droid army composed of real war-droids must have been less scary than a clone army, even though the clones in reality could also be subverted (i.e. Order 66).

IG-88 was confident that given a few years with control of one of the main sources of droids in the galaxy he could take over the galaxy (although he did have megalomania but then again he did take over the ds2

), Sw natives are very confident in the programming of droids, think asimov spacers + 20k years of a culture saturated with robots.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-22 03:46pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:I vote for cultural reasons.

The Star Wars races probably have their own versions of the Terminator movies were the machines revolt and kill everybody,but with a difference:

Star Wars droids really could, they aren't hypothetical like SKYNET.

Given that droids are a servitor "race", treated as property, the Star Wars folk probably have plenty of paranoid fantasies about the worker droids arming themselves and forming the Droid Liberation Front. A real droid army composed of real war-droids must have been less scary than a clone army, even though the clones in reality could also be subverted (i.e. Order 66).

I dont remember where I heard the reference, but apparently, at some point in the Old Republic's past, there was a "Great Droid Revolution." For obvious reasons, the galaxy at large has been wary ever since, and rightly so. IG-88 attempted to overthrow the galactic government before he was destroyed along with the second Death Star.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 04:21pm

IG-88 was confident that given a few years with control of one of the main sources of droids in the galaxy he could take over the galaxy (although he did have megalomania but then again he did take over the ds2 ), Sw natives are very confident in the programming of droids, think asimov spacers + 20k years of a culture saturated with robots.

That fact that IG-88 (great story) got that far shows that the Warsian confidence is misplaced. If things had happened a little differently, he would have succeded.

Don't forget, the asimov spacers were wrong too; Daneel Olivaw (sp) screwed with human history and society quite effectively despite the vaunted Three Laws.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 04:23pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote

must have been less scary than a clone army

Just noticed : MORE scary,not LESS scary.Sorry.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-22 04:32pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote: Don't forget, the asimov spacers were wrong too; Daneel Olivaw (sp) screwed with human history and society quite effectively despite the vaunted Three Laws.

Zeroth law, Means to a long term end.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 04:45pm

Zeroth law, Means to a long term end.

That's my point, the robot makers didn't create or foresee the Zeroth Law, so who knows what the droidmakers have missed. They missed IG-88, after all; he was defeated without anyone realizing he was even there.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-22 04:47pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Zeroth law, Means to a long term end.
That's my point, the robot makers didn't create or foresee the Zeroth Law, so who knows what the droidmakers have missed. They missed IG-88, after all; he was defeated without anyone realizing he was even there.

Sw droids tend to have much more tightly written programming while having very flexible A.I cores, they generally dont have the laws, although some may have a variation of the first law but with a higher priority on their own worth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 04:58pm

IG-88 overestimated his own abilities. If the computer core refused to respond to commands, the technicians could simply pull the plug. There was no way he could take over the Empire; if he did anything that actually made the technicians realize the computer core was out of control, they'd simply deactivate it and him with it, and then put in a new core (assuming there isn't already a backup).

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 04:59pm

As I recall, Asimov robots weren't programmed at all in the modern sense of the word.

The Three Laws were imposed as "fields of potential" in the positronic brains IIRC. The Zeroeth Law was implied by the pattern of the fields, not explictly defined or programmed in. As soon a a robot became sophisticated enough, the Zeroth Law just popped out of the underlying Laws.

As far as SW droids are concerned, they are constantly being modified by various owners, tightly programmed or not. Sooner or later a mistake must be made - which is probably why memory wipes seem to be common on droids.

It must be hard to start a revolution if you can't remember why you want to.

And this brings us right back to the OP (deftly avoids hijacking thread). If Star Wars folk go to so much trouble to avoid droid rebellion AND have historical reasons to fear one, then it makes since that they would prefer a clone army.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 05:04pm

IG-88 overestimated his own abilities. If the computer core refused to respond to commands, the technicians could simply pull the plug. There was no way he could take over the Empire; if he did anything that actually made the technicians realize the computer core was out of control, they'd simply deactivate it and him with it, and then put in a new core (assuming there isn't already a backup).

As I remember, a major part of the plan was an Empire wide, simultaneous droid uprising. IG-88 took over a droid factory world and started sending out droids with a "Trojan Horse" program - when he gave the signal, all sorts of droids would have risen up and killed their masters, seized military assets and so on.

If he had been less concerned with maintaining personal control, I think it would have worked; instead with him gone, there was no one to send the signal.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-06-22 05:20pm

The 'group Force buff' ability is a canonically viable one, as demonstrated in the Thrawn Trilogy. I also suspect that the Clone Wars were designed to demonise both Clones and Droids ("We don't allow your kind in here!"), possibly as part of Sidious' plan to Force Vamp the whole galaxy; If people didn't use droids or clones he'd have a larger power base.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-06-22 05:34pm

My take on the matter has always been that droids are used where it's convenient, but that as a whole the SW universe is not completely reliant on droids. I mean the really little things like people driving their own cars, stuff like that. So even if a droid "revolt" was to take place, it wouldn't cripple say the Empire. Cause chaos and disruption? Hell yes.

For the TF it was logical to build a droid army. It had the facilities and knowledge to do so. It could even do it legally, as I believe battle droids were considered to be just another form of weapon.
It's also possible that the Republic could have chosen the droid option, but the clones were ready at hand, and time was of the essence. So the choice was really made for them.

-Gunhead

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-22 06:06pm

I also suspect that the Clone Wars were designed to demonise both Clones and Droids ("We don't allow your kind in here!"), possibly as part of Sidious' plan to Force Vamp the whole galaxy; If people didn't use droids or clones he'd have a larger power base.

Another thought :
Droids, I believe, are immune to Force mind control and reading. From the perspective of a Force based Galactic Dictatorship, this is a Bad Thing.

In fact, the Emperor himself could not detect IG-88's DS 2 takeover, even when IG-88 created "malfunctions" to bug him. If droids had the respect/power, they would had been a dangerous resistance force, and an organic Rebellion could have swayed them to it's side with promises of droid liberation.

Keeping the droids down, therefore is of obvious benefit to any Sith - or Jedi for that matter.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-06-22 07:50pm

I suppose it's too noob-like to say that the droids fight really crappily in the movies, so I won't comment.

Does anyone realize the clone vs. AI debate is the same as in the Starsiege series, and its precursors (Planetsiege and Cyberstorm)?

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-06-22 07:58pm

Woudnt the Clones be a contrast to the droids?

Palpy could just go "Hey every one look at the EVIL droid army and the mechanical death it brings. Look at my good human army that goes to church every day and saves orphans."

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 09:25am

IG-88 could have never taken over the Empire. His droid rebellion would have united the Empire and made it harder for the Rebellion, which would have already been reeling from the defeat at Endor (which would be nessecary for IG-88 to survive). The IMps just have to destroy Mechis III? and then hunt down the droids.

The Rebels as a whole didn't take care for their droids anymore than the IMps did. Pilots might have become attached to particular astro droids, but that was about it.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-23 01:43pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:IG-88 could have never taken over the Empire. His droid rebellion would have united the Empire and made it harder for the Rebellion, which would have already been reeling from the defeat at Endor (which would be nessecary for IG-88 to survive). The IMps just have to destroy Mechis III? and then hunt down the droids.

The Rebels as a whole didn't take care for their droids anymore than the IMps did. Pilots might have become attached to particular astro droids, but that was about it.

THats why the takeover of the DS2 was essential. IG-88s plan was to wait until the Death Star was complete, then use the droid rebellion as a distraction while he used the DS to run rampant through the core worlds.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-23 03:21pm

IG-88 could have never taken over the Empire. His droid rebellion would have united the Empire and made it harder for the Rebellion, which would have already been reeling from the defeat at Endor (which would be nessecary for IG-88 to survive). The IMps just have to destroy Mechis III? and then hunt down the droids.

Thing is, as we see in the movies the droids are everywhere. If all or most of them rise at once, they may succeed - especially since the goal ( IIRC ) is to replace organics, not "Take over the Empire".

If the droids do enough damage to the galaxies biospheres (by crashing ships and so forth) and kill enough unsuspecting people in the first hours of the rebellion, the organics may not recover. Even if they win, stopping a full fledged droid rebellion with that kind of head start will do so much damage that the Empire may lose it's infrastructure and collapse - a mutual kill.

And as far as destroying the factory world, that would require that the Empire find out that is the source of the problem. Doing that kind of intelligence work in the middle of a galactic uprising will take time; and while it grinds on, the droids will be converting other facilities.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-06-23 04:17pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
IG-88 could have never taken over the Empire. His droid rebellion would have united the Empire and made it harder for the Rebellion, which would have already been reeling from the defeat at Endor (which would be nessecary for IG-88 to survive). The IMps just have to destroy Mechis III? and then hunt down the droids.
Thing is, as we see in the movies the droids are everywhere. If all or most of them rise at once, they may succeed - especially since the goal ( IIRC ) is to replace organics, not "Take over the Empire".

If the droids do enough damage to the galaxies biospheres (by crashing ships and so forth) and kill enough unsuspecting people in the first hours of the rebellion, the organics may not recover. Even if they win, stopping a full fledged droid rebellion with that kind of head start will do so much damage that the Empire may lose it's infrastructure and collapse - a mutual kill.

And as far as destroying the factory world, that would require that the Empire find out that is the source of the problem. Doing that kind of intelligence work in the middle of a galactic uprising will take time; and while it grinds on, the droids will be converting other facilities.

But the IG88 didnt build all of the droids in the galaxy.

He only built a few million units. With a galaxy that has planets like Coruscant (over a hundred trillion beings) the "droid rebellion would be inconsiquetial to the power of the Dark Side.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-06-23 05:05pm

But the IG88 didnt build all of the droids in the galaxy.

He only built a few million units.

I'm sure it was more than that, he took over one of the premier factory worlds IIRC. I guess I have to dig up that book and check, if I can find where I put the book.

With a galaxy that has planets like Coruscant (over a hundred trillion beings) the "droid rebellion would be inconsiquetial to the power of the Dark Side.

Actually, the Dark Side was no help at all in the story. Palpatine never felt IG-88 on the DS-2, and would no doubt have died when IG-88 vented the air or turned up the gravity to eliminate the organic infestation.

The Dark Side is impressive, but the Sith have a major disadvantage : since there is only one master and one apprentice, they can only be 2 places at once. That limits what they can do about any large-scale problem.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-23 10:58pm

Never feeling IG-88's presence does not mean that Palpatine has lost his prescience. He never foresaw the droid rebellion because it never happened. And despite IG-88's scheming, there is no guarantee that it would have happened, or that he would have even been able to do anything with DS2 once they realized that the computer core was ignoring commands. How the fuck are you supposed to instantly "vent the atmosphere" from an entire battlestation of that size? How are you supposed to crush everyone with artificial gravity when any sane designer would have designed the artificial-gravity system only to be powerful enough to do its job? Are you aware of engineers that routinely design things to be ten times more powerful than design spec for no reason? I'm not.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-06-23 11:14pm

The Emperor also has more Dark Siders under his control. There are more than just two force users in the Empire.

The Imperial Warmachine would be able to stop a few non combat model droids pretty easily. Even if IG-88 did get the DS2 remeber it can only be at one place at a time and it wouldnt have a crew to run it. Thus the Imperial Navy could just sit over it and tear it apart with HTs. Think of what happened to the Star Forge and the Republic Fleet.