ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-06-21 07:48pm

Lost Soal wrote:
YT300000 wrote:True, but those all took place feet away, almost certainly giving enough time for a Jedi with precog and Force enhanced speed to react. This was inches.

Although I admit its hardly conclusive, since I wasn't looking for that when I watched the scene, and will have to see it again to be sure, which will take a number of months. But I am quite sure that is what happened.
1. Jedi speed works both ways, attack and defence.
2. They were at strike range from a standing position.
3. Jedi precog effectrs in lightsabre battles is minimal. Or did you miss the part where two Jedi masters stand motionless while Palpatine lands "feet away" then performs a basic lung attack.

All true. Nevertheless, feet vs inches.

Okay. Lets see if any LFL employees stumble upon this: +http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=227871

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 07:03am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He agreed with Darth Vader to try to turn Luke, and as a contigency plan he sent Mara Jade on an assasination attempt. And during most of the OT, Palpatine had a contigency plan. When did he not have a contigency plan?

When Darth Vader picked him up and threw him to his death, perhaps? He turned his back on someone whose son he was torturing, and who was right there just a moment earlier when he said that he intended to get rid of him and replace him. Pure genius. How about when he was sitting in the Invisible Hand hoping that Anakin would be able to land what remained of it? Your wankery is getting out of hand. Palpatine's arrogance and overconfidence are what caused the Empire to fall in ROTJ, dumb-fuck. To say that he is incapable of such overconfidence is the height of idiocy.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 08:23am

He returned in the DE series, he knew that even if he lost, he would return. And Darth Vader had almost killed his son, killed his wife, and ruthlessly massacred billions, all in the name of the Empire. Palpatine's assumption that he would stay loyal makes sense. Palpatine was arrogant, but that wasn't what caused the Empire to fall. THe Empire fell, temporarily, because Palpatine designed it to implode upon his death.

About the IH, Palpatine can cause enormous Force Storms that can destroy entire fleets. He could push up part of the IH with the Force to help land it if it looked like Anakin couldn't do it on his own. And his confidence in Anakin's abilities was obviously not misplaced.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-22 08:31am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He returned in the DE series, he knew that even if he lost, he would return. And Darth Vader had almost killed his son, killed his wife, and ruthlessly massacred billions, all in the name of the Empire. Palpatine's assumption that he would stay loyal makes sense. Palpatine was arrogant, but that wasn't what caused the Empire to fall. THe Empire fell, temporarily, because Palpatine designed it to implode upon his death.

About the IH, Palpatine can cause enormous Force Storms that can destroy entire fleets. He could push up part of the IH with the Force to help land it if it looked like Anakin couldn't do it on his own. And his confidence in Anakin's abilities was obviously not misplaced.

So we're using abilities that he distinctly learned in the FUTURE to tell us, he had it all planned in the past.

In RoTJ he had 20+ years of research...something he didn't have in RoTS. Gee, guess in what span of time he learned both the Force Storm and Body hopping....and guess what they say this in Dark Empire.

All in all this does not show that he had a extra lightsaber or that Windu didn't kick his old white ass.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 08:38am

It just shows he has contingency plans. My point was that he had the power required to create force storms, so a force push would be well within his capabilities.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-22 09:58am

Trooper TK 12746 wrote:It just shows he has contingency plans. My point was that he had the power required to create force storms, so a force push would be well within his capabilities.

By DE he has the power to generate Force storms. We have no proof he can produce this kind of power in RotS. By the time of DE, he's had over 20 years to study and perfect his power, and he still got killed. Up to RotS, he wouldn't have had much chance to practice using the Force, since he had to be in hiding from the Jedi, and then once he became Supreme Chancellor, orchestrate a war against himself, so he had to walk a very tight rope or his plans would shatter around him.

hypernova · Post by **hypernova** » 2005-06-22 12:21pm

Sry if im repeating things already said, this was a looong topic and didnt have the time to read everything.

the force storm:
he didnt have the power to "create" it he just "activated" it and grew more powerful by itself, you know cycling power its own power.

my thoughts on Mace vs Palp

i believe the mace is the best in lightsaber fighting, been when it comes to sword fighting when you compare sword masters the only difference between whos best is microscopic,

when they were fighting he wasnt holding back(he was just about as good as mace and would continue to fight for quiet some time)...when he sensed anikan aproaching he "faked" his defeat.

the other jedi that were with mace were all 3 jedi masters...on the jedi council, i dont know why some of you didnt recognize them, the first 2 killed were pretty good with a saber but not excellent i excepted them to die fast, now kit fisto (the green guy with lots of liphids) he was supposed to be very good at dueling i was exspecting him to last a good 3-4 more strokes.

Jedi power levels:
a jedi's power shouldnt be measured by his dueling skills, this is 1 of 3 main skills a jedi can have, 1 healing (a very special gift), 2 diplomacy(doesnt always work), 3 lightsabers (only used when diplomacy doesnt work) another reason why so many jedi died at geonosis jedi werent used to actual fighting, the hi packed action that you always see, before the clone wars was in fact a rarity, the average jedi would fight maybe once in a standard year.

as far as raw force power yoda and palpatine were way above mace, anikan and obiwan.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 12:51pm

Palpatine even says that Anakiin will be more powerful than him or Yoda.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-06-22 12:53pm

YT300000 wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:
YT300000 wrote:True, but those all took place feet away, almost certainly giving enough time for a Jedi with precog and Force enhanced speed to react. This was inches.

Although I admit its hardly conclusive, since I wasn't looking for that when I watched the scene, and will have to see it again to be sure, which will take a number of months. But I am quite sure that is what happened.
1. Jedi speed works both ways, attack and defence.
2. They were at strike range from a standing position.
3. Jedi precog effectrs in lightsabre battles is minimal. Or did you miss the part where two Jedi masters stand motionless while Palpatine lands "feet away" then performs a basic lung attack.
All true. Nevertheless, feet vs inches.

Okay. Lets see if any LFL employees stumble upon this: +http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=227871

Kestle Burger wrote:The book doesn't mention anything about Palp's senidng Mas Amedda or anyone to go get his saber. That thing broke into millions of pieces from all the way up there. It probably killed some kid as it fell on his head.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 12:54pm

But he did have a backup/holdout lightsaber.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 12:56pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:But he did have a backup/holdout lightsaber.

And for the umpteenth fucking time, where does the novel say that he was keeping it during the Windu fight? Either deal with this point or shut the fuck up about it.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-22 12:59pm

I didn't say he had it during the fight with Mace Windu, I just stated that Palpatine does posses a second lightsaber. You keep misunderstanding it every time I say that.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-22 01:08pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Palpatine even says that Anakiin will be more powerful than him or Yoda.

Him and Yoda together.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2005-06-22 01:17pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I didn't say he had it during the fight with Mace Windu, I just stated that Palpatine does posses a second lightsaber. You keep misunderstanding it every time I say that.

You have suggested several times (four by my count) during this debate that Palpatine could have used his holdout lightsabre to stab Mace or at least deflect his attacks.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-22 01:38pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I didn't say he had it during the fight with Mace Windu, I just stated that Palpatine does posses a second lightsaber. You keep misunderstanding it every time I say that.

Then WHY THE FUCK DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP IN RELATION TO A THREAD ABOUT HIM SUPPOSEDLY BEING ABLE TO BEAT WINDU, ASSHOLE?

You are being a dishonest little shit and I am rapidly running out of patience with you.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2005-06-22 03:23pm

More to the point, if he needed to use a holdout to kill Mace, isn't that a tacit admission he can't beat Mace 1-on-1?

Frankly I don't think that Palpatine's more powerful than Mace or Yoda; he just has more flexibility from being able to use the darkside, and the Jedi aren't really prepared or experienced with fighting the Sith.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-22 06:01pm

TK 12746 wrote:I didn't say he had it during the fight with Mace Windu, I just stated that Palpatine does posses a second lightsaber. You keep misunderstanding it every time I say that.

Stop fucking lying. You've repeatedly claimed that Palpatine had his back up ON HIM DURING THE FIGHT WITH MACE. You've been using this as "evidence" that Palpatine threw the fight. You keep throwing up the same argument over and over, and all I hear is you slinging bullshit around like snowballs on Christmas Day. Either admit that Palpatine got his ass handed to him or shut the fuck up and get off this fucking point. Palpatine didn't have his back-up saber on him. Period. You've repeatedly failed to provide any shred of evidence to back up your claims, and now you say you never made that point?

TK 12746 wrote:I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

TK 12746 wrote:Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber anyway, so he could have easily stabbed Mace Windu. And Palpatine isn't stupid, if the force lightning had really been hurting him he would have stopped. Not continue with greater intensity.

TK 12746 wrote:According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.

TK 12746 wrote:Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him. And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.

That's just the first three pages, dipshit. You claim he had it four times on page 4 ALONE! I'll repeat: Stop fucking lying, fucktard.

General Brock · Post by **General Brock** » 2005-06-22 07:54pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He returned in the DE series, he knew that even if he lost, he would return. And Darth Vader had almost killed his son, killed his wife, and ruthlessly massacred billions, all in the name of the Empire. Palpatine's assumption that he would stay loyal makes sense. ... THe Empire fell, temporarily, because Palpatine designed it to implode upon his death.

About the IH, Palpatine can cause enormous Force Storms that can destroy entire fleets. He could push up part of the IH with the Force to help land it if it looked like Anakin couldn't do it on his own. ....

Those assumptions, extrapolations, are getting a bit wide. He might have played divide and conquer to keep his elite off-balance, but the Empre imploding would be a side-effect, not neccessarily deliberate design.

Sure, it makes sense that if he had a backup lightsabre, he would have it alongside his regular sabre, especially since he was pushing an endgame. It's just not as tangibly documented as your observation that he declined a clear thrust at Mace, even though he took down three Jedi using thrusts just a minute ago, and that seems to be an integral part of his fencing style.

To my eyes, he really did look nervous when Anakin tried to land the ruined Invisible Hand; he was counting on getting to the escape pods quickly, not being delayed while Anakin rescued Obi-Wan. Had Anakin listened to him, they would have escaped, Grievous would have jettisoned all the pods, and Obi-Wan, assuming he came to, would be trapped on a dying ship beyond his piloting skills to save.

Jedi seem to have to be outside the objects they levitate; they don't levitate themselves that I know of, so even if he did have the power to lift a falling space ship, he might not be able to levitate one he's inside of. All his endgames seem to have this element of unforseen chance, from capturing Amidala to turning Luke. Whatever he forsees might be a matter of probability, and narrowly attuned to his immediate objectives.

Qui-Gon didn't learn a new trick till after he died, and it could well be that in the process of 'reincarnating' himself Sidious gained force storm knowledge and more powers. It just dosen't seem like the sort of trick to practice and perfect while still living in hiding from the Jedi, but after they are gone, he could explore the dark side as he pleased.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 09:21am

I said that he probably had his lightsaber during the fight with Mace, I said the novelization made it clear that Palpatine owned a second holdout lightsaber. I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda. I just said the novelization said he had a second lightsaber. I think he had the lightsaber on him in his duel with Windu, which would have allowed him to stop Windu's attack if Anakin didn't stop him.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-23 09:38am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I said that he probably had his lightsaber during the fight with Mace, I said the novelization made it clear that Palpatine owned a second holdout lightsaber. I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda. I just said the novelization said he had a second lightsaber. I think he had the lightsaber on him in his duel with Windu, which would have allowed him to stop Windu's attack if Anakin didn't stop him.

Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him. And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.

Boy, you really need to stop backpedalling.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 09:42am

THat quote does not have any claim in it that says the novelization proves Palpatine had his lightsaber with him. I am going with my opinion. Which is that Palpatine had both of his lightsabers with him during his fight with Windu and could have deflected any attack by Windu if Anakin didn't intervene.

On a side not, how canon are the smaller novelization on the movies? Cause I read one on RotS and it had the following thought by Anakin when Palpatine blasts WIndu:

"Palpatine was faking!"

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-23 09:46am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:THat quote does not have any claim in it that says the novelization proves Palpatine had his lightsaber with him. I am going with my opinion. Which is that Palpatine had both of his lightsabers with him during his fight with Windu and could have deflected any attack by Windu if Anakin didn't intervene.

On a side not, how canon are the smaller novelization on the movies? Cause I read one on RotS and it had the following thought by Anakin when Palpatine blasts WIndu:

"Palpatine was faking!"

Yeah, he was faking being completely drained of strength and energy.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 09:47am

Which means he could have continued to fight Windu and was not losing, he was testing Anakin.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-23 09:51am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Which means he could have continued to fight Windu and was not losing, he was testing Anakin.

No, it just means that he had plenty of force lightening left. If Annakin had not shown up and crippled Windu, Palpantine still would have been killed because Windu could deflect the force lightening.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 11:22am

No, in the novelization it says that Mace is too exhausted to continue fighting.