ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)?

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-23 11:26am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:No, in the novelization it says that Mace is too exhausted to continue fighting.

Well, he didn't need to continue fighting because he was about to cut Palpantine in half. Did you actually watch the movie?

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-23 11:34am

TK 12736 wrote:I said that he probably had his lightsaber during the fight with Mace, I said the novelization made it clear that Palpatine owned a second holdout lightsaber. I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda. I just said the novelization said he had a second lightsaber. I think he had the lightsaber on him in his duel with Windu, which would have allowed him to stop Windu's attack if Anakin didn't stop him.

Explain this statement:

TK 12746 wrote:According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. (Emphasis mine)

See anything there? Or are you too fucking stupid to realize no one buys your bullshit?

TK 12746 wrote:I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda.

Is this a typo? Or are you just really fucking dense? Of course Palps had his back-up lightsaber during the fight with Yoda, because his main lightsaber got kicked out the fucking window!

You've been claiming left and right that the book says Palps had his back-up lightsaber on him during the fight with Mace. Or shall I post more quotes of your Wall of Ignorance? If these have just been your opinions, then why the fuck have you been throwing them around like facts, asshole?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 11:39am

I have repeatedly stated that the novelization states that Palpatine had a backup lightsaber. A Backup weapon complements a regular weapon, a holdout weapon is used as a last resort. This is why I think he would have had the backup on him. Show me a quotation where I specifically state that the novelization supports Palpatine having a second lightsaber with Windu (not just having a second lightsaber).

Palpatine could have kept Windu at bay with more Force lightning, then he could have either slashed Windu with his holdout lightsaber (going with my theory that he has it on him) or summon it and impale Windu from behind.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-23 12:00pm

TK 12746 wrote: have repeatedly stated that the novelization states that Palpatine had a backup lightsaber. A Backup weapon complements a regular weapon, a holdout weapon is used as a last resort. This is why I think he would have had the backup on him. Show me a quotation where I specifically state that the novelization supports Palpatine having a second lightsaber with Windu (not just having a second lightsaber).

Asshole, did you not even read my fucking post? Or any of my others where I quote you? You do know TK 12746 is you, right?

TK 12746 wrote:It says that he had a lightsaber somewhere else that was guided into Palpatine's sleeves (which means he could have had it in his hand), and that in another case he already had a backup in his sleeve. And the backup weapon is usually kept with the primary weapon in reality. If you have a pistol as a backup weapon, you won't keep it in the regimental barracks while your out fighting. You keep it on your person just in case. And I only said that it showed that he did indeed have two lightsabers. There is no proof he did not have it with him in the fight with Windu.

Let's see if I can find some more, shall we?

TK 12746 wrote:(In reference to the quotes from the book)
1. Palpatine takes a lightsaber out of a hidden location and puts it into a his hand, which is concealed by his large sleeves.

2. Later, Palpatine has a backup lightsaber (key word backup, not replacement) in his sleeve, presumably in his sleeve holster.

YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu. Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand. In the Yoda fight, it was in his sleeve (presumably in a holster) and came into his outstretched hand. Backups are used to supplement the primaries, not replace them. Palpatine wouldn't have his holdout lightsaber off his person when he knows there is going to be a fight.

And even if it was off his person, he could still use the force to summon the holdout lightsaber and impale windu with it.

Oh, lookey! Another claim that Palps had his back-up on him during the Windu fight! Or that he could have summoned it from some unmentioned location and stabbed a Jedi Master in the back, which is even more full of shit. And don't pull this semantic wordgames bullshit. He used his back-up in the fight with Yoda. Or are you now going to claim he has three lightsabers?

TK 12746 wrote:He had one, the novelization makes that clear. The fact that he didn't use the backup lightsaber shows that he was throwing the fight. He could have easily used it to stab Windu or at least deflect his blow once Palpy's primary lightsaber was gone.

And I havn't seen the movie in a couple weeks, so your probably right about lightsaber in holster thing. But why couldn't he have two holsters?

And even if he doesn't have the backup on him, why can he not summon the lightsaber from behind Windu and impale him with it?

And again!

TK 12746 wrote:No, in the novelization, Palpy had his original lightsaber in a neuranium statue, he then summoned it into his sleeve, where it later slid into his hand for the fight with Windu (and the other Jedi). His holdout lightsaber was in his sleeve already when he fought with Yoda.

Your visual evidence could show that Palpy made it appear that he was helpless but really still had another lightsaber in his sleeve just in case.

Gasp! Another one! Shall I dig up more? Just say so! I've only gotten up to page 5. Think there's at least one more on page 6. After I started posting quotes of your bullshit, you've been backpedalling and lying through your teeth. Tip for ya, bucko: In a public discussion, don't try lying about what you said when there is written evidence to the contrary. It's just bad form.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-23 12:06pm

Not only is repeated lying bad form, but it is also a violation of our rules. Either concede or shut the fuck up, TKfuckhead. I've had enough of you lying and backpedaling without admitting error.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 12:47pm

The second quote merely states that there is no proof he didn't have it, not that there was proof that he did.

The third quote is a claim, nowhere did I state that it was proved by the novelization. I was stating my opinion, which is that Palpy had his backup on him during the fight with Windu. He didn't need to use his lightsaber backup in the fight with Windu, so he didn't use it. Just because he uses it later doesn't mean he didn't have it before

The Fourth quote still does not have me saying that the novelization proves he had it during his fight with Windu. I am going on my opinion, which is every bit as legit as yours and wong's.

The fifth quote doesn't have me claiming it was proven in the novelization that he had his backup in the fight with Windu, I am just asserting that the evidence you were giving could go either way and explaning how I thought the sequence of events would go.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2005-06-23 12:50pm

Next stop, Parting Shots.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-23 12:58pm

I will not give up just yet.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-23 01:02pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I will not give up just yet.

Which is reason #1 for my doubting you have much life left on this board.
But I figure that if you suck it up, act like a man, and admit you are wrong you may have a chance. Then again, I've been wrong before.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-23 01:20pm

TK 12746 wrote:The second quote merely states that there is no proof he didn't have it, not that there was proof that he did.

Imbecile. I will quote myself on this matter, seeing as I addressed this earlier:

Vicious wrote:TK 12746, get a fucking clue. You are proposing he threw the fight, therefor you have to prove it. Saying we can't prove he didn't throw the fight is useless. The burden of proof is on you, not us. Until proven otherwise, Palpatine didn't have his "back-up" lightsaber on him. If there is doubt as to whether something is there or not, logic dictates we assume it isn't until proven otherwise. Produce the quote, or the picture, or any hard evidence that he had it on him during the fight with Windu or shut the fuck up.

Can you follow that? I'll spell it out plain and simple: YOU have to prove he had his back-up lightsaber ON HIM during the fight with Mace. Since you have failed repeatedly to do so, I will take it that you can not do so.

As to the rest of your "rebuttals", I'm sick of quoting your lame attempts to prove your point and I will just sum it up thus: You have attempted at every turn to say that since we see in the novelization Palpatine taking his back-up lightsaber out of hiding and putting it in his robes, despite the fact that you have failed to provide relevant page numbers to back up the claim that this scenario occured at that same time as him getting is main lightsaber out, this is evidence that he had it on him during the fight with Windu. You have, and I will state this as many times as needed, repeatedly failed to provide the requisite proof of said occurance despite multiple people on this board demanding you to do so. If anyone else can find fault with my reasoning, and so far no one has, then let them flame me into ash.

To the point about these being your opinions and them being no more correct than mine or Lord Wong's or anyone elses: utter bullshit. Our stance is supported by this little thing called evidence. You have just your shitstorm to back your statements up, and unfortunately shit isn't very reliable for proving a point. Yes, these are opinions. No, ours are not in the same league as yours, since we are supporting the accepted view point, i.e. Palpatine got his ass kicked. You are arguing against this viewpoint, and despite repeated requests, have failed to provide any evidence to counter the observed event.

All of your arguments can be summed up thus: "Palpatine is the uberestest Sith and can't be beat, so he must have been faking, because no one is more uber than Palpatine." I'm not sure whether to call this a Broken Record or a Wall of Ignorance, or both. Someone else can decide that. I will say I've had immense pleasure ripping you to pieces.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2005-06-23 02:09pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I will not give up just yet.

I don't think you understand that when you have been caught red-handed lying about your own statements, you are not being asked to concede any more; you are being told to concede. To punctuate this point, I have revoked your sig and avatar. Perhaps now you will understand?

Post by **Kuja** » 2005-06-23 11:09pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I will not give up just yet.

Let the dead horse rest. I've been watching this thread for the last two pages and you seriously need to figure out when to let go.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2005-06-24 12:17am

Yeah, well he decided to "not give up" a little under 12 hours ago. He has been active--in PSW no less--but has chose to ignore this thread rather then owe up to his stupidity and admit defeat.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-24 09:37am

I have not been lying. Wong and like consistantly misunderstood my statemnents. Every time I said that the novelization proved that Palpatine had a second lightsaber, they always thought that I meant it proved he had one at the duel, that is not what I meant. My belief is that he had one at the duel, while the novelization proves that Palpatine had two lightsabers in his possesion during RotS.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-06-24 09:43am

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I have not been lying. Wong and like consistantly misunderstood my statemnents. Every time I said that the novelization proved that Palpatine had a second lightsaber, they always thought that I meant it proved he had one at the duel, that is not what I meant. My belief is that he had one at the duel, while the novelization proves that Palpatine had two lightsabers in his possesion during RotS.

Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him. And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.

I know it's a broken record, but it bears repeating.

Your own words.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2005-06-24 09:54am

I've been on bulletin boards, and in chatrooms for years and it still never ceases to amaze me just how many people will flat out lie about what they have said when there is a fucking record of all of their posts.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-24 09:57am

TK 12746 wrote:I have not been lying. Wong and like consistantly misunderstood my statemnents. Every time I said that the novelization proved that Palpatine had a second lightsaber, they always thought that I meant it proved he had one at the duel, that is not what I meant. My belief is that he had one at the duel, while the novelization proves that Palpatine had two lightsabers in his possesion during RotS.

Ok, fuckwad. Welcome to Sith Justice. Let me quote you:

TK 12746 wrote:I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

Now, this seems to indicate that you believe, according to the novelization, Palatine had his hold-out lightsaber on him during the fight with Mace. We have asked repeatedly for evidence of this. Quotes from the book, page numbers to verify the timing of events, etc. You have consistently failed to prove this point, and have subsequently lied about ever making it. You have now been charged with an ultimatium to concede. Not a request. A demand. Lying about your past actions and words is against board policy and you still claim you weren't lying, but were merely "misunderstood"? If you still believe you were misunderstood, explain every single fucking quote I posted of you attempting to back up your claims with some sort of evidence. No one bought it, no one buys it now and everyone can see you are full of shit. I don't know if you realized it, but when you make claims that contradict the accepted interpretation of events, YOU have to provide proof. You haven't done so, have been called upon this repeatedly and lied about ever making that claim. Get off the fucking novelization. That's not the issue. The issue is you lying about making a claim which you made and attempted to defend no less than eight times.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-24 10:59am

As I clarified a couple posts after that, the novelization stated that he had a holdout lightsaber in his robes. I think that it makes sense then that he would have it in his robe with Mace WIndu.

According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.
Code: Select all
Here is something I said on page two. I specifically state that the novelization says that he had a holdout lightsaber in his fight with Yoda. I then say that he could have stabbed Mace WIndu. This is because I believe he had his holdout lightsaber with him when he fought Mace Windu. I am not sayin that the novelization says that.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-24 11:14am

TK 12746 wrote:As I clarified a couple posts after that, the novelization stated that he had a holdout lightsaber in his robes. I think that it makes sense then that he would have it in his robe with Mace WIndu.
According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.
Code: Select all
Here is something I said on page two. I specifically state that the novelization says that he had a holdout lightsaber in his fight with Yoda. I then say that he could have stabbed Mace WIndu. This is because I believe he had his holdout lightsaber with him when he fought Mace Windu. I am not sayin that the novelization says that.

Oh, so this whole time you've been bandying your personal opinion around like fact and bitching that we don't accept it? You're even more of an asswad than I first thought. Opinion is all well and good, but in a debate, it don't mean shit against facts and evidence. And you still lied about never making the claim Palpatine had his lightsaber on him during the fight with Windu, seeing as you just said it. Great way to incriminate yourself even more shitwad, if that's possible.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2005-06-24 11:36am

Dude, give it up. They've got you

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-24 11:40am

SVPD wrote:Dude, give it up. They've got you

No, no, let him keep trying. I'm enjoying this quite a lot. Besides, seeing him digging this hole deeper and deeper just gives me warm, tingly feelings all over.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-24 11:40am

Gah, I wish this had an edit button. Forgot to add my

to that last one.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-24 12:46pm

Saying that Palpatine didn't have the holdout is also your opinion, yet you have been using it as fact. You have no evidence that proves he didn't have it. And give me a quote where I actually say the novelization shows that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber during his duel with Windu. I say things that you misunderstand. You then assume that I mean during the fight with WIndu as opposed to just having a holdout lightsaber. I say multiple times that the novelization shows that Palpatine had two lightsabers, not that it shows he had two lightsabers in his duel with Windu. I have asserted this on almost every page of this topic. I am not lying. You are misunderstanding my statements repeatedly even when i explain what they mean.

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-06-24 01:05pm

Vicious wrote:
TK 12746 wrote:I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

Emphasis mine. Please, provide the quote and page number where it mentions this.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-06-24 01:06pm

TK Dumbfuck wrote:Saying that Palpatine didn't have the holdout is also your opinion, yet you have been using it as fact. You have no evidence that proves he didn't have it.

My evidence for Palpatine not having his back-up saber in the fight with Windu? HE DIDN'T FUCKING USE IT, SHITHEAD! He got his ass kicked, backed up into the wall and was about to be kebab'd when Anakin ran in. Either he doesn't give a fuck about dying, or he didn't have it. Which do you think, dumbfuck? Note that I'm humoring you in the interest of trying out interesting insults on you. I don't have to prove shit to you, fucktard, since you're claiming something which we never see.

TK Dumbfuck wrote:And give me a quote where I actually say the novelization shows that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber during his duel with Windu. I say things that you misunderstand. You then assume that I mean during the fight with Windu as opposed to just having a holdout lightsaber. I say multiple times that the novelization shows that Palpatine had two lightsabers, not that it shows he had two lightsabers in his duel with Windu. I have asserted this on almost every page of this topic. I am not lying. You are misunderstanding my statements repeatedly even when i explain what they mean.

TK Dumbfuck wrote:I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

Now, tell me how this isn't attempting to reason that since we see in the novelization he has two lightsabers, he could have defeated Mace's attacks? How would having two lightsabers, which we know since we see him use the second one against Yoda, have helped him diddly against Mace? If this isn't what you actually meant, then why the fuck did you mention it, dickface? We know he had two lightsabers, or did you not actually watch the fucking movie?

Or this one:

TK Dumbfuck wrote:According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.

Same thing as above, shitface. You're attempting to use the fact that the novelization shows he has two lightsabers as justification that he had them both on him during the fight with Mace. I'll state again: If he had it, he would have fucking used it, rather than hope like hell Anakin got there and didn't just let Mace kebab him. I kinda remember Anakin being the tiniest bit peeved on learning his wise, kind mentor was, in fact, a Sith Lord.

Let's employ Occam's Razor, shall we? Which of these hypothoses makes the most sense?

A)Palpatine had a second lightsaber on him, but chose to risk his life and all his carefully laid plans on the because he had carefully orchestrated to have Anakin come and save him, despite Anakin not being the most stable of sensible of beings.
OR
B)Palpatine didn't have a second lightsaber on him, therefore when he was knocked to the ground, beaten and virtually defenseless, and it was sheer luck that Anakin arrived before Mace killed him.

Knowing what we know about Palpatine, which of these seems more likely? Hmmm? Does he ever exhibit a death wish? Does he ever try to get himself killed? NO! In RotJ, he was confindent that his massive fleet, giant planet-busting space station and his ground troops would be sufficient to defend him. The fact that the Rebels found unanticipated resources, i.e. the Ewoks, isn't a sign of gross negligence on his part. Using himself as bait was stupid, but to be honest he did bring a hell of alot of firepower to the party and it would be reasonable to assume than an enemy vastly outnumbered and outgunned wouldn't pose much of a threat.