SW combat speeds - movies ONLY

[Kruk]

Something I found on sb.com

I'm curious to see your answers, so be nice

++http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... ge=1&pp=25

(...)
I mean I know it's all about "lookin nice" etc but each time I see ANH (the opening scene) and then all those fighter/MF or fighter scenes in TESB and ROTJ it strikes me that SW ships are, well, slow.

I mean fighters on full burn (ROTJ) need few second to fly past SSD or even ISD. Well, I think it's full burn, couse flying slow would be stupid in fighter fight. And that means that top-STL speed of SW ships (or at least top speed with manoeuvring still possible) is between 1k and 7k km/h. Can someone explain that for me, please. Or correct me.

BTW - I'm talking about movies, not EU.

And before someone start screaming "bulshit and once more about "oh, how the SW ships are slow" - It's about combat speeds IN MOVIES.

[Darth Wong]

This thread is worthless. State an actual argument which we can discuss here; there are thousands of boards all over the Internet which you can just post a link to.

[Stark]

It's the same old 'wah wah SW ships are slow! I don't care how often they make high orbit or break orbit in seconds! They are t3h slow!' thread. Spacebattles... was it ever good?

EDIT - and Scrubula is there. Wow.

[Darth Wong]

Ah, it looks like the OP has been edited to add an actual argument. Let's just say that the exclusive use of velocity rather than acceleration tells you all you need to know about the author's ignorance.

[Vympel]

No one likes Scrubula there. Everyone thinks he's an idiot. Just like here.

[Cykeisme]

Hey, I like ignorant people. It makes me feel like a genius simply for having a basic understanding of Newtonian dynamics and kinematics.

A character flaw of mine, I suppose

[Kruk]

It wont be first time in sci-fi history with space ships having top-speed. I think most sci-fis have top-speed not top-velocity. Both ST, SW and even sooo (sarcasm) realistic B5.

[Stark]

What are you talking about? You're breaking SOD by whining about your particular interpretation! And what's the difference between 'top speed' and 'top velocity'?

Cute how you edited your OP after I posted, BTW.

[LaCroix]

First of all, the time for passing another starship has nothing to do with absolute speeds.. it could easyly be that the SSD is flying 0.5c and the fighter 0.5c+200km/h.

we can only get the relative speed to the SSD.

Btw. In a conflict situation in the midst of huge battles (some 100 fighters in a swarm, flying all directions and doing nasty things to each other), I would not rely on speed only.

At some speed, evasing maneuvers concerning other combattants are getting difficult. Capships are around, too, so these combat situations are like dogfighting in a canyon. You hit the gas pedal, but you certainly won't ram it trough the plate. (my opinion.)

Having big ranges with LOS weaponry, I can afford to be a bit "slower" and therefore more agile.

Also, the shields and weapons drain a lot energy, maybe there isn't enough power in such a fighter to keep topspeed and full combat strenght.

[Darth Wong]

It wont be first time in sci-fi history with space ships having top-speed. I think most sci-fis have top-speed not top-velocity. Both ST, SW and even sooo (sarcasm) realistic B5.

You don't even realize that speed is just the scalar version of velocity, do you?

Isn't it funny how the people who hate the idea of using scientific calculations in sci-fi always just happen to be people who couldn't do a scientific calculation to save their lives? Honestly, what kind of imbecile doesn't realize that "top speed" and "top velocity" are the same thing?

[Kruk]

All right, my mistake. should be acceleration. big deal.

[Soontir C'boath]

All right, my mistake. should be acceleration.

Why?

[Darth Wong]

All right, my mistake. should be acceleration. big deal.

The fact that you need assistance to remember the difference between velocity and acceleration is the whole point I was making before. You're obviously too stupid to have an informed opinion on this sort of thing.

[McC]

Yay, bash the newbie!

Or, y'know, try to decipher something useful and give the guy the benefit of the doubt...

Let's restructure his post a bit, shall we?

I found this post on spacebattles.com relating to the apparent speeds of SW ships in the movies:

<snip post>

I'm curious why the ships appear to travel so 'slow.' Can anyone answer this for me? Thanks!

Sure, Kruk, no problem. You see, many of the instances of ships travelling depict ships travelling at 'slow' speeds relative to one another. A good example might be the opening shot of ANH, where Tantive IV is escaping Devastator. While they appear to only be traveling a few hundred meters per second, this speed doesn't account for 'unseen' movements the camera/our POV might be making. They could be traveling significantly faster.

As for the battles themselves, and in particular the trench run, myself and others have done calculations based on the telemetry/targeting scopes of the Rebel fighters and found them to be traveling a relatively 'slowly' as well. However, one must also remember that they're hurtling along a trench of a vessel that is currently moving at a significant speed in its own right (since the Death Star manages to round a gas giant in about 30 minutes). So while their speed relative to the Death Star appears 'slow,' you've got to keep in mind that they're constantly accelerating to keep up with the Death Star's own motion -- no mean feat!

The ROTJ battle presents another interesting situation, particularly when on sees how fast the Rebels approach the Death Star after coming out of hyperspace. Their initial approach to close the distance is enormously fast. But once they get to a point where they anticipate having to maneuver and are trying to be cautious, their relative speed slows. Furthermore, during the engagement, they are so close to the other ships that traveling any faster than they do could present them with a situation where they've slammed into a friendly or enemy capital ship (not a desirable prospect, obviously).

So, as you can see, the speeds depicted are not representations of technological limitations, but rather situational requirements. Hope this helps

[Kruk]

Hey, thanks very much.

[McC]

Hey, thanks very much.

No problem. Most people won't give you the benefit of the doubt around here, so be careful with how you phrase your questions in the future, ok?

[Alan Bolte]

Yay, bash the newbie!

Or, y'know, try to decipher something useful and give the guy the benefit of the doubt...

Agreed.

They could be traveling significantly faster relative to Tatooine

Fixed.

Suggestion: link to threads mentioned regarding combat speeds at Yavin, Endor; evaluate speeds in other battles and come up with a range of common combat speeds for various vessels.

Will return after dinner, sex.

[McC]

Suggestion: link to threads mentioned regarding combat speeds at Yavin, Endor; evaluate speeds in other battles and come up with a range of common combat speeds for various vessels.

Quite right.

This is the latest thread about the ANH trench run, and within is linked my older analysis.

Enjoy

Will return after dinner, sex.

You enjoy, too

[Dangermouse]

Lets examine more closely the upper speed:

7000 km /hr -> 1.944 km/s.

Time to reach various points in the Earth's atmosphere at a constant velocity:
Stratosphere (18k)-> 9.25 s
Mesosphere (50k) -> 25.7 s
Thermosphere (80k) -> 41 s
Exosphere (500k) -> 257 s

In ESB, we see a cargo ship and two fighters evacuate the planet. At the start of the sequence, the ships are some unknown distance aboth Hoth, but certainly still within the atmosphere:


18 s later, the ships are here:


38 s later, the ships have cleared the ship seen here:




This satelite photo is from Orbview2, which is at a height of 700km (from here). I chose it because it has a similiar curvature to the Hoth 18s shot. For example, lets say the initial height of the first shot is 50km. I am guessing completely on this chosen height but it can serve as an example. This would imply the ships have an average velocity of 36km/s.

The shots seen here imply a speed much higher than the upper limit combat speed in the linked post.

From this, I think we can safely conclude that the combat speeds seen in ANH and ROTJ are not upper limits and that fighters are capable of much higher velocities if they were desired. I agree with McC. Ships will adjust their speeds in combat depending on the situation.

Welcome to the board Kruk.

[Batman]

Welcome to the board Kruk.

He's been with this board long enough to know better. Trust me on this.

[Cykeisme]

This is only partially relevant, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyway.

With sensors and targeting computers, a high relative velocity isn't enough to make a fighter difficult to hit from the point of view of a gunner or another fighter. Even at incredible relative straight-line speeds, hitting the target would be a pretty simple matter.
What would fuck up attempts to hit a fighter is randomly applied acceleration, whether it's linear or circular. That's probably why fighters are constantly bobbing and weaving.

[AdmiralKanos]

Yay, bash the newbie!

Or, y'know, try to decipher something useful and give the guy the benefit of the doubt...

Look at his join date and read his posting history before you get on that high horse, fool. I actually disabled his sig because it ranted that people who calculate numbers for sci-fi are all stupid. He's a third-rate moron who hopes to "stay under the radar" by posting his stupidity in infrequent bursts.

[Kruk]

I'm here for some time, true. But I care about SW and calculations only when it goes about ff's - so I post rather rarely. Also true. I'm mostly visit it for a few minutes, see if there is something interesting and go to to other places.
Also - I post here when I have a question (someone once said that this is a best place to ask questions about SW tech) or if somone annoy me in vs part of that forum (it started with D.W post that Sovereign build with SW tech can be seen as replica of original Sovereign). So most of my posts could be seen as "stupid". Add to it the fact that I'm not to good with english and you have a "moron".

I just dont care as much as most people here. Or better to say I dont care at all. I DONT care if ST or B5 ship is faster, better armed or shielded then it's SW counterpart. I DONT care who would win a fight or a war: ST or SW. It's so simple.

BTW - what you have against my signature?

[Utsanomiko]

Neither do a lot of people here, yet you don't see any of them starting threads asking for calculations that stoop to a third-rate grasp of physics and a bitter anti-science mindset.

I don't care to ask about BSG's ship accellerations compared to B5 either, but if I were to ask about it, I'd be sure as hell to know how the basic physics of movement works, not attempt to project my own shortcomings of rationalization onto stuff I don't know ("top speed" my ass...), and not call people who do use the time and intelligence to come up with the facts and evidence 'stupid'. Why even ask, otherwise?

[Utsanomiko]

BTW - what you have against my signature?

Um...

I actually disabled his sig because it ranted that people who calculate numbers for sci-fi are all stupid.

I do hope that's self-evident.