Moderator: Vympel
When did he fight Grevious "blade to blade"? This certainly didn't happen in the novel, the movie, or in the Clone Wars series (he just appeared, stared at him and crushed his chest with the Force, no saber action).p. 177
"But who will capture Grevious? I have fought him blade-to-blade. He is more than a match for most Jedi." '
In Labyrinth of Evil, if I remember it correctly, he and Grievous clashed swords on Coruscant. It was on a train or something.Kurgan wrote:While I was reading the ROTS novel (returned it to the library now so I can't quote much, unfortunately) I came across an interesting bit:
When did he fight Grevious "blade to blade"? This certainly didn't happen in the novel, the movie, or in the Clone Wars series (he just appeared, stared at him and crushed his chest with the Force, no saber action).p. 177
"But who will capture Grevious? I have fought him blade-to-blade. He is more than a match for most Jedi." '
Can somebody tell me what source this is referring to and what happened exactly? Thanks!
As far as I can gather (from Chee and others from LFL, there statements on the subject have been vague and sparatic) LOE takes precedence. The CW cartoons are more like a legend, a retelling of the events of LOE in a mythisized format. Think of it as CW being a theatrical retelling of the Battle of Coruscant, and LOE being a historical document.Cykeisme wrote:I take it there's a notable disparity between LoE and the Clone Wars microseries when it comes to the portrayal of the planetside events during the Battle of Coruscant?
Which one takes precedence, canon-wise? LoE or CW?
I'll state ahead of time that I'd like a fact, not personal opinions. Thx.
So where in that "historical document" does Grievous get his chest crushed and/or damaged, leading to the filmic portrayal of him as a bitch ?Pure Sabacc wrote:As far as I can gather (from Chee and others from LFL, there statements on the subject have been vague and sparatic) LOE takes precedence. The CW cartoons are more like a legend, a retelling of the events of LOE in a mythisized format. Think of it as CW being a theatrical retelling of the Battle of Coruscant, and LOE being a historical document.Cykeisme wrote:I take it there's a notable disparity between LoE and the Clone Wars microseries when it comes to the portrayal of the planetside events during the Battle of Coruscant?
Which one takes precedence, canon-wise? LoE or CW?
I'll state ahead of time that I'd like a fact, not personal opinions. Thx.
How do we know Grevious wasn't always a bitch (and CW an exaggeration)? Let me guess.. LoE?white_rabbit wrote:So where in that "historical document" does Grievous get his chest crushed and/or damaged, leading to the filmic portrayal of him as a bitch ?Pure Sabacc wrote:As far as I can gather (from Chee and others from LFL, there statements on the subject have been vague and sparatic) LOE takes precedence. The CW cartoons are more like a legend, a retelling of the events of LOE in a mythisized format. Think of it as CW being a theatrical retelling of the Battle of Coruscant, and LOE being a historical document.Cykeisme wrote:I take it there's a notable disparity between LoE and the Clone Wars microseries when it comes to the portrayal of the planetside events during the Battle of Coruscant?
Which one takes precedence, canon-wise? LoE or CW?
I'll state ahead of time that I'd like a fact, not personal opinions. Thx.
Well, considering how many Jedi he has killed (directly evidenced by the movie) I'd say he isnt too much of a bitch. Certainly, his LOE depiction isnt on par with clone wars, but its still quite impressive. The CW might also explain why GG behaves like a wimp in most of ROTS. Before the Coruscant battle episodes (which are more suspect) there is a training scene in which Dooku instructs GG that he should flee from more powerful Jedi if he lacks suprise, intimidation, and deception because if he doesnt, he'll get his ass kicked (as happens when he is unable to escape Obi-wan.) Grevious is no wimp, he just smart enough to know he cant face a high level master openly.How do we know Grevious wasn't always a bitch (and CW an exaggeration)? Let me guess.. LoE?
surprise, indimidation and fear. As can be evidenced in his first Clone Wars chapter with him. They Jedi were surprised that GG had defeated their clones, indimitated by his speech and quite clearly afraid when he approached.Noble Ire wrote:Well, considering how many Jedi he has killed (directly evidenced by the movie) I'd say he isnt too much of a bitch. Certainly, his LOE depiction isnt on par with clone wars, but its still quite impressive. The CW might also explain why GG behaves like a wimp in most of ROTS. Before the Coruscant battle episodes (which are more suspect) there is a training scene in which Dooku instructs GG that he should flee from more powerful Jedi if he lacks suprise, intimidation, and deception because if he doesnt, he'll get his ass kicked (as happens when he is unable to escape Obi-wan.) Grevious is no wimp, he just smart enough to know he cant face a high level master openly.How do we know Grevious wasn't always a bitch (and CW an exaggeration)? Let me guess.. LoE?
So what you are saying is, GG always had some sort of respiratory problem, and CW never happened ?Kurgan wrote:How do we know Grevious wasn't always a bitch (and CW an exaggeration)? Let me guess.. LoE?white_rabbit wrote:So where in that "historical document" does Grievous get his chest crushed and/or damaged, leading to the filmic portrayal of him as a bitch ?Pure Sabacc wrote: As far as I can gather (from Chee and others from LFL, there statements on the subject have been vague and sparatic) LOE takes precedence. The CW cartoons are more like a legend, a retelling of the events of LOE in a mythisized format. Think of it as CW being a theatrical retelling of the Battle of Coruscant, and LOE being a historical document.
Not necessarily. If we were going JUST BY THE MOVIE (hypothetically), we could guess that he acquired those lightsabers in other ways than fighting each Jedi hand to hand and murdering them. He could have simply gone around during the war and picking them up off Jedi corpses he located on the battlefield. A general need not engage in single combat with everyone he comes across. I actually pictured Grevious being a "cheater" in the honored tradition of Highlander series villians... let his henchmen "soften up" the person before he killed them. That's what those Magnaguards are for, etc. So even if he had to fight Jedi himself, he doesn't have to take them all on and win so easily. The CW stuff was pure wank.Noble Ire wrote: Well, considering how many Jedi he has killed (directly evidenced by the movie) I'd say he isnt too much of a bitch.
As a single soldier against conventional troops, Grevious is impressive yes, but against Jedi there's surely better ways to kill them than a droid (essentially) with four lightsaber arms. Jedi aren't immortal I know, but they go down way too easily against him. If the shroud of the Dark Side is limiting their powers so they are useless against him, then why does Obi-Wan have such an easy time?Certainly, his LOE depiction isnt on par with clone wars, but its still quite impressive.
That's interesting, because he insists on facing Obi-Wan directly (pushing aside his large army). I guess his ego got the better of him? He also insisted on using that force pike against Obi-Wan hanging off the edge instead of using the blaster on him (it was lying at his feet, he could have easily gone for it). Or even just get into his ship and take off?The CW might also explain why GG behaves like a wimp in most of ROTS. Before the Coruscant battle episodes (which are more suspect) there is a training scene in which Dooku instructs GG that he should flee from more powerful Jedi if he lacks suprise, intimidation, and deception because if he doesnt, he'll get his ass kicked (as happens when he is unable to escape Obi-wan.)
And yet he does, and he loses. If we just go by the movie, we have nothing really to justify Grevious's fearsome reputation as a hand to hand fighter. His "collection" could easily have been collected off the battlefield. But this is Star Wars, where Generals don't just sit around commanding troops, they actually fight alongside, and are the best fighters, so whatever, I guess.Grevious is no wimp, he just smart enough to know he cant face a high level master openly.
I don't know about CW, it's apparently acknowledged as being legendary and exaggerated. Maybe some of it happened, who knows? But we know some of it just doesn't gel with what is demonstrated in the films. We have no evidence that Mace Windu or other Jedi can single handedly destroy thousands of battle droids all by himself (attacking him en masse), making them explode with his mind and punching them to bits, etc. They're super heroes when the story calls for it, and other times they're just normal jerks with laserswords in their hands.white_rabbit wrote:So what you are saying is, GG always had some sort of respiratory problem, and CW never happened ?Kurgan wrote:How do we know Grevious wasn't always a bitch (and CW an exaggeration)? Let me guess.. LoE?white_rabbit wrote: So where in that "historical document" does Grievous get his chest crushed and/or damaged, leading to the filmic portrayal of him as a bitch ?
See, this is another thing that bugs me. Character shields for the main characters are explained away by having Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu being the most powerful Jedi ever, with every other Jedi Master being a chump. This excuses them getting killed by any old thing, making them the Redshirts of the Old Republic. ;pNoble Ire wrote:You make some good points Kurgan, but I have to point out that Anakin and Obi-wan are within the top four most powerful Jedi in the Order, and most of the other Jedi GG faced were fairly low level (only two of the Jedi on Hypori were masters, and masterhood doesnt always ensure fighting prowess.) As I said, GG relies on intimdation and suprise and fear to help knock the Jedi down a few notches before fighting them. At the battle of Hypori (the first time he had revealed himself publicly) he used fear and suprise to great advantage, and no doubt caugt the Jedi off balance (not to mention the fact that each of the Jedi was probably exahusted wounded from the battle and crash.) After that, GG never faces more than one Jedi at a time, at least not unless their very low level (padawans for instance.) Anakin and Obi-wan are hardly low level.
Who knows. He runs from Anakin & Kenobi. Then he faces Kenobi. Then he runs from Kenobi. Then he faces Kenobi again. Go figure, the guy's insane. The way I see it, Clone Wars Season 2 wanked him heavily, then Season 3 tried to backpedal with excuses, now we get him at a full 180. The thing is if he had these Jedi Killing abilities all the time, I would think he'd pull them out when they were needed.As for facing Obi-wan, I'm not entirely sure why he chooses to face Obi-wan for a brief period. It is possible he feels safe, knowing that his Droid gaurds can just support him if necissary. Mabye he needs an ego bosst after the loss at Coruscant.
CW may be "wank" of sorts, but just because we dont see GG do something, and because its not shown that he cant, one cannot assume that that part is non-canon.Phyre wrote:I think CW was just wanked. Remember the scene were Grievous is using one of his legs to hold the saber? Nowhere do we see this in ROTS, we see him unhinge his arms, and then have 4 arms. Which canon is higher?
That's what I though.
He does do the leg thing in Labyrinth of Evil though as I recall, and he does the arm thing in Clone Wars to.Phyre wrote:I think CW was just wanked. Remember the scene were Grievous is using one of his legs to hold the saber? Nowhere do we see this in ROTS, we see him unhinge his arms, and then have 4 arms. Which canon is higher?
That's what I though.
How does him demonstrating a different ability in the movies invalidate the first ability shown in the cartoons?Phyre wrote:I think CW was just wanked. Remember the scene were Grievous is using one of his legs to hold the saber? Nowhere do we see this in ROTS, we see him unhinge his arms, and then have 4 arms. Which canon is higher?
That's what I though.
Thank the lord. That was one of the few things that Bugged me about GG. He was conceived as this Jedi Killer and I thought to myself that I hope to God that he is at least a Force-adept so they could rationalize the notion of him surviving numerous Jedi force pushes and other types of Jedi Attacks. Then there's Clone Troopers, I seriously doubt that a Non force-adept is very good at parrying Blasters. Personally I was very pleased as to how GG was portrayed in ROTS and that CW just took the basic concept of the character and got way too carried away.Kurgan wrote:See, this is another thing that bugs me. Character shields for the main characters are explained away by having Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu being the most powerful Jedi ever, with every other Jedi Master being a chump. This excuses them getting killed by any old thing, making them the Redshirts of the Old Republic. ;pNoble Ire wrote:You make some good points Kurgan, but I have to point out that Anakin and Obi-wan are within the top four most powerful Jedi in the Order, and most of the other Jedi GG faced were fairly low level (only two of the Jedi on Hypori were masters, and masterhood doesnt always ensure fighting prowess.) As I said, GG relies on intimdation and suprise and fear to help knock the Jedi down a few notches before fighting them. At the battle of Hypori (the first time he had revealed himself publicly) he used fear and suprise to great advantage, and no doubt caugt the Jedi off balance (not to mention the fact that each of the Jedi was probably exahusted wounded from the battle and crash.) After that, GG never faces more than one Jedi at a time, at least not unless their very low level (padawans for instance.) Anakin and Obi-wan are hardly low level.
Why should Grevious be any more intimidating than anyone else? These Jedi Masters are supposedly revered for their wisdom and control of their emotions. Okay, so maybe being on the Council doesn't guarentee superior hand to hand fighting prowess, fine... but doesn't it at least imply they are "with the Force" and able not to freak out in battle and get scared because the guy wears a scary mask and has a scary voice?
And these Jedi forget they have the Force at their command. Is pushing over a battle droid suddely a feat only a handfull of Jedi are capable of? Of course in the CW series Grevious has the ability to do Jedi-style leaps and dodges, which he seems to lack in the movie.
Who knows. He runs from Anakin & Kenobi. Then he faces Kenobi. Then he runs from Kenobi. Then he faces Kenobi again. Go figure, the guy's insane. The way I see it, Clone Wars Season 2 wanked him heavily, then Season 3 tried to backpedal with excuses, now we get him at a full 180. The thing is if he had these Jedi Killing abilities all the time, I would think he'd pull them out when they were needed.As for facing Obi-wan, I'm not entirely sure why he chooses to face Obi-wan for a brief period. It is possible he feels safe, knowing that his Droid gaurds can just support him if necissary. Mabye he needs an ego bosst after the loss at Coruscant.
I loved the CW series, but it's much easier to explain this if we simply ignore it for giving an accurate portrayal of Grevious's abilities and those of his victims. I can't speak for LoE though, again, not having read it myself.
