Something about Endor and Corusant.

[Lord Revan]

We all know that Ackbar said in the ROTJ novelization that nobody has ever tried to battle at point blank range with ship like the ISDs or MonCal cruisers, but yeat the Battle of Corusant little under 30 earlier was fought at extremely close range. Well what I think is that what Ackbar meant is that nobody has ever tried to aproach to (in real space) and battle in point blank range (here lies the difference with Corusant were fleet exited hyperspace for intents and purposes on top of each other (so close in fact that a CIS ship exiting hyperspace accidently rams a Venator class SD).

[Jay]

I'm just speculating wildy; because I don't remember Ackbar's exact wording; but perhaps he meant:

"None of us rebels have ever tried something like that before. It's not something we've had any practice at."

rather than

"No-one in the history of the galaxy has ever done that."

Like I said, just speculating.

[Danny Bhoy]

I'm just speculating wildy; because I don't remember Ackbar's exact wording; but perhaps he meant:

"None of us rebels have ever tried something like that before. It's not something we've had any practice at."

rather than

"No-one in the history of the galaxy has ever done that."

Like I said, just speculating.

I vaguely recall that the novelisation had Lando babbling something about inventing a new kind of combat tactic when Ackbar protested that noone had ever gone to pissing range with capital ships before. I always got the impression it had never been done before or at least not documented. Surely the Coruscant battle was documented or Augie did a planetary mindwipe?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Another possibility is that the size of the ships was a key point. The biggest ships at the battle of Coruscant measured little over a kilometer, which is shorter than the smallest of the full capital ships at Endor (1.2 km Mon Cals). The rebels also had at least two 4-km Home One-type ships, and the Empire had the monstrous 18-19 km Executor.

It's possible that, while point-blank battles between small capital ships may have occured at Coruscant and elsewhere, it was totally unprecedented for massive ships like the ones at Endor to do the same.

Danny Bhoy: It's possible that by "capital ships", Ackbar was referring to ships of the Imperator-class and higher in mass.

[Lord Revan]

Another possibility is that the size of the ships was a key point. The biggest ships at the battle of Coruscant measured little over a kilometer, which is shorter than the smallest of the full capital ships at Endor (1.2 km Mon Cals). The rebels also had at least two 4-km Home One-type ships, and the Empire had the monstrous 18-19 km Executor.

It's possible that, while point-blank battles between small capital ships may have occured at Coruscant and elsewhere, it was totally unprecedented for massive ships like the ones at Endor to do the same.

Danny Bhoy: It's possible that by "capital ships", Ackbar was referring to ships of the Imperator-class and higher in mass.

in fact the biggest ships at Corusant were 2-3km in diameter (the TradeFed battleships).

[Winston Blake]

Darth Wong has mentioned the possibility that the difference is the size/firepower of the warships involved:

This creates considerable confusion with the line from Admiral Ackbar in the ROTJ novelization that the close-range combat at Endor was completely unprecedented, since it seems inconceivable that this battle would not be well known to naval historians. However, Ackbar did make a point of saying that such close-range battle had never occurred between "supervessels" like the Empire's Imperator and Executor-class warships and his own fleet of Mon Calamari cruisers. It may be that naval firepower has increased so sharply since the Clone Wars that it was inconceivable that their vessels would engage at such close range now, even though lesser naval warships had engaged at extreme close-range before. That is not infeasible in light of the fact that all Clone Wars-era ships incorporated large cargo holds and were capable of planetary landings, while these capabilities (which would necessitate huge design compromises) were apparently removed from the Imperator-class warship in order to make room for more equipment necessary to increase firepower and shield strength.

[Lord Revan]

snip

yeah that's another possible solution, but it's something I don't like to use.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

in fact the biggest ships at Corusant were 2-3km in diameter (the TradeFed battleships).

Godammit! I'm a Lucrehulk whore and yet I forgot them somehow...

Thanks for the correction. So the size difference isn't as big as I thought, but it's still there. The Lucrehulks were the massive "battleships" of that battle, but they're roughly comparable to the Home Ones in volume and utterly dwarfed by the Executor.

Winston and Wong are probably onto the right track, though. It isn't the volume, but the power of the ships.

[Noble Ire]

Thanks for the correction. So the size difference isn't as big as I thought, but it's still there. The Lucrehulks were the massive "battleships" of that battle, but they're roughly comparable to the Home Ones

And they're utterly outclassed by the Home One in firepower. I personally favor Mike's explanation.

[Lord Revan]

Well the Venator is already 8 TT per gun (or turret I can't recall which), having any signifigant increase in per gun firepower is too much IMHO (ISD of course has more guns). And BTW were is it said that Home One has superior firepower to A Lucrehulk-class (Home One is modified passenger liner and Lucrehulk is modified freighter, were's the difference)?

[Noble Ire]

And BTW were is it said that Home One has superior firepower to A Lucrehulk-class (Home One is modified passenger liner and Lucrehulk is modified freighter, were's the difference)?

Perhaps you are right. Still, I was under the Impression that a Lucrehulk couldnt stand up to a Venator in single combat. If that is the case, then the Home One would have to be more powerful in some ways than the the TF ship, considering it can go toe to toe with an ISD.

[Lord Revan]

And BTW were is it said that Home One has superior firepower to A Lucrehulk-class (Home One is modified passenger liner and Lucrehulk is modified freighter, were's the difference)?

Perhaps you are right. Still, I was under the Impression that a Lucrehulk couldnt stand up to a Venator in single combat. If that is the case, then the Home One would have to be more powerful in some ways than the the TF ship, considering it can go toe to toe with an ISD.

well the Lucrehulk has piss distrubution of firepower, so it's effective firepower would little under an ISD, were as Home One would little above but difference ain't that big (about the same as VenSD/VSD and ISD).

[Cal Wright]

Here is the exerpt in it's entirety from the novelisation of RotJ as published in the trilogy book on pg 449 paperback. Btw, I had thought this same thing when I saw the opening of the battle.

High above, it was no different. A thousand deadly dogfights and cannon bombardments were erupting all over the skies, while the Death Star laser beam methodically disintergrated the Rebel Ships.

In the Millenium Falcon, Lando steered like a maniac through an obstacle course of the giant, floating Imperial Star Destroyers-trading laser bolts with them, dodging flak, outracing TIE Fighters.

Desperately, he was shouting into his comlink, over the noise of continuous explosions, talking to Ackbar in the Alliance command ship. "I said closer! Move in as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point blank range- that way the Death Star won't be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like thier Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the untinkable-but thier options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

The difference between Endor and Coruscant was that the CIS was making a lightening strike to capture thier target. The entire time they were trying to escape the battle, while the Republic ships were pouring in. At Endor they were literally trying a battle tactic that was not practically taught, practiced or encouraged. Apparently by Ackbar's expression not only was it unheard of, but discouraged more then anything.

[The Original Nex]

I believe in the novelization, Ackbar specifies that point-blank combat is unheard of in conventional fleet combat. The Battle of Coruscant was by no means conventional, which the Seperatist Fleet jumping in to close quarters from Hyperspace, and the combatants were later trapped beneath the planetary shield, hardly a conventional situation.

The Rebel Fleet was able to close to point blank range at the Battle of Endor only because they realized the Imperial Fleet was not going to attack them, and thus enabling the Rebels to maneuver close to the Imperials with few losses.

[VT-16]

Judging by the movies alone, it didn´t sound like an unpresidented tactic, just one with low chance of success.

[McC]

Much like the Obi-Wan/Lightsaber usage thread, this is an instance of the novelization dialogue conflicting with the filmic dialogue. For reference, the filmed dialogue is:

LANDO: Yes, I said closer. Get as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range!

ACKBAR: At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers...

LANDO: We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star! And we might just take a few of them with us!

Considerably different dialogue. So, we could just toss the novelization, since it presents a scene which now contradicts two movies.

Alternately, everyone seems to be equating "supervessels" with "capital ships," which isn't necessarily appropriate. The term "supervessels" may in fact refer to the immense Mon Cal ships (like Home One) and the immense Imperial warships (like Executor and the comm. ship), and to a lesser extent the large star destroyers and Mon Cal cruisers in general (I say lesser because there's more parity between them and Venators than between Venators and Executors).

Either way, it doesn't really present a continuity problem: either it's thrown out because it's contradicted by two movies and is a lesser source, or it's rationalized with the above (or a better alternative, should one present itself).

[Vympel]

I'm not a fan of chucking out dialog that's in the novelization because it's said differently in the movie- it provides context all the same, IMO. Lando's idea about "we'll last longer than we will against that Death Star" is obviously the same intention as "that way the Death Star won't be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

Another point-

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

Look at the bolded section- we see the Falcon doing this. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Lando is saying what the novelization says he said to Ackbar, we're just not privy to it.

[Cal Wright]

Yeah, if you take the dialog and look at it again. The novelisation has all that going on between the lines.