Last Minute TIE Fighter Incompetence

[Trooper TK12746]

Even if each Rebel killed a 100 Ties, the fighters from the DSII alone would easily maintain numerical superiority over the Rebels. And the Rebels had suffered relatively severe losses. Lando says all fighters, follow me. That means that the ships attacking the DSII core were most (if not all) of the Rebel fighters.

[Crazedwraith]

I know 2 where captured for sure, they where mentioned in the X-Wing novels, one was Emancipator and i forget the name of the other.

The liberator, those are the NR names, the Real ones were Adjucticator and Accuser IIRC. *toddles of to check it wedge's gamble*

EDIT: Checked, and I was right

[Danny Bhoy]

Even if each Rebel killed a 100 Ties, the fighters from the DSII alone would easily maintain numerical superiority over the Rebels. And the Rebels had suffered relatively severe losses. Lando says all fighters, follow me. That means that the ships attacking the DSII core were most (if not all) of the Rebel fighters.

Were there fighters from the DS2?

There is no evidence (novelisation or movie) that fighters in the DS if any (although we do see a TIE Bomber in the hanger racks when Vader's shuttle arrives) were committed to the fray. For one thing, they'd have to open the shield for those fighters to join the battle (it's one thing to open the shield for a split second to fire the superlaser). Also, according to the novelisation, it implies that the gaggle of TIEs that pursued the Rebel fighters when the shield came down were the same that were out there fighting all along, i.e. from the wings of the various ISDs.

[Danny Bhoy]

Still on the theme of the ROTJ fighter combat, what was James Khan referring to in the ROTJ novelisation when he mentioned the various Rebel squadron Wings? Like Gold Wing, Green Wing etc.? Obviously he could not have meant Wing as in the standard manner, i.e. a flying unit bigger than Squadron but smaller than Group, since he mentioned various Wings being in shot down in the different scenes as if they were individuals. Did he mean the wingman of the various squadron leaders then?

[Trooper TK12746]

Probably meant individuals.


THe DSII carried thousands of fighters. Once the Endor shield was down, they should have been able to destroy the Rebels. ANd TIEs are carried in racks that allow them to launch extremely rapidly. They should have had no problem killing off hte Rebels.

[SVPD]

Just to clarify, I don't think we see all of the rebel fighters that entered the DSII structure. There's a lot of fighters setting off fireworks after the victory, I think the screen only shows a few at a time.

Also, given the need to drop the shield to launch TIEs and the fact that we see the fighters approaching from the ISDs but not the DSII I don't see where we are getting tons of fighters off the Death Star.

[Augustus Caesar]

As I'm not too knowledgeable on Star Wars past the movies, were there any more versions of the TIE Fighter created apart from the regular TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, and TIE Interceptor?

Towards the threads original topic, the TIE Fighters really do seem incompetent, as the asteroid field in TESB showed. They couldn't maneuver their smaller craft past asteroids the larger Millenium Falcon breezed through. The only time where TIE Fighters were close to successful was when Vader destroyed X-Wing after X-Wing in the Death Star Trench, only to be stopped from killing Luke because of Han Solo's appearance.

Were there ever any improvements on the TIE Fighter's biggest weaknesses(no shields, no hyperdrive, limited firepower compared to an X-Wing)?

[Noble Ire]

As I'm not too knowledgeable on Star Wars past the movies, were there any more versions of the TIE Fighter created apart from the regular TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, and TIE Interceptor?

Tie Defender, Tie/In, Tie Vanguard, Tie Boarding Craft, Tie Lander, just to name a few.

Were there ever any improvements on the TIE Fighter's biggest weaknesses(no shields, no hyperdrive, limited firepower compared to an X-Wing)?

The Tie Defender took care of all those weaknesses, although they were never produced on a comparable scale. Later model Tie Interceptors also incorporated comparable shielding systems I believe.

[Nephtys]

Were there ever any improvements on the TIE Fighter's biggest weaknesses(no shields, no hyperdrive, limited firepower compared to an X-Wing)?

TIE Defender was basically Rebel Fighter Plus. If you played X-Wing Alliance or such, you'll see exactly how godlike those things are, compared to junk like letterwings... Of course, the Impies didn't make many at all..

[andrewgpaul]

As I'm not too knowledgeable on Star Wars past the movies, were there any more versions of the TIE Fighter created apart from the regular TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, and TIE Interceptor?

Tie Defender, Tie/In, Tie Vanguard, Tie Boarding Craft, Tie Lander, just to name a few.

Were there ever any improvements on the TIE Fighter's biggest weaknesses(no shields, no hyperdrive, limited firepower compared to an X-Wing)?

The Tie Defender took care of all those weaknesses, although they were never produced on a comparable scale. Later model Tie Interceptors also incorporated comparable shielding systems I believe.

Some late-model TIE Fighters had shields, if not hyperdrives (at least, some of Zaarin's did, in the later TIE Fighter campaigns. Can't tell you how annoying it was, hitting one with a concussion missile, and watching it not die).

[Darth Yoshi]

That's why I always linked my missiles. But yeah, the TIE/Def was ridiculous. Dogfighting one was worse than taking on TIE/I's in a Y-wing; at least the Y-wing has better shields.

I always wondered why the DSII didn't send any fighters of her own out.

[Fuzzy]

That's why I always linked my missiles. But yeah, the TIE/Def was ridiculous. Dogfighting one was worse than taking on TIE/I's in a Y-wing; at least the Y-wing has better shields.

I always wondered why the DSII didn't send any fighters of her own out.

Yeah but the missions where you take the squad of 6 Tie Defenders, including Vader were awesome. ^.^ I love that game.

[Darth Yoshi]

TIE/Def? I'm pretty sure Vader only uses the Avenger in TIE Fighter.

Just to clarify, I don't think we see all of the rebel fighters that entered the DSII structure. There's a lot of fighters setting off fireworks after the victory, I think the screen only shows a few at a time.

I agree. When the shield went down, the Rebel fighters would've had to essential drop what they were doing and make a beeline for the core. It'd make far more sense to have had a stream of fighters make their way into the DSII with the Falcon in the lead.

[Vympel]

Even if each Rebel killed a 100 Ties, the fighters from the DSII alone would easily maintain numerical superiority over the Rebels. And the Rebels had suffered relatively severe losses. Lando says all fighters, follow me. That means that the ships attacking the DSII core were most (if not all) of the Rebel fighters.

This is wrong. He says "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me." Green and Grey Groups didn't perform an attack run.

[Nephtys]

Even if each Rebel killed a 100 Ties, the fighters from the DSII alone would easily maintain numerical superiority over the Rebels. And the Rebels had suffered relatively severe losses. Lando says all fighters, follow me. That means that the ships attacking the DSII core were most (if not all) of the Rebel fighters.

This is wrong. He says "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me." Green and Grey Groups didn't perform an attack run.

Weren't Grey and Green mostly dead by then anyway?

[Danny Bhoy]

Even if each Rebel killed a 100 Ties, the fighters from the DSII alone would easily maintain numerical superiority over the Rebels. And the Rebels had suffered relatively severe losses. Lando says all fighters, follow me. That means that the ships attacking the DSII core were most (if not all) of the Rebel fighters.

This is wrong. He says "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me." Green and Grey Groups didn't perform an attack run.

Weren't Grey and Green mostly dead by then anyway?

I think it was Vympel who told me that Grey Leader was the Y Wing leader that barrelled out of control into an ISD.

EDIT: The death of Grey Leader does not mean that Grey Group/Squadron was out of the fight.

Hard to tell who Green Leader was, other than he was an A Wing pilot. The guy who kamikazed the Executor's bridge looked the same bloke who got shot down in the early dogfight scene (when Wedge says "Red 3, Red 2, pull in", and you can see a TIE Interceptor looming behind the cockpit shot of the A-Wing pilot and then shooting him down before being smoked by a Y-Wing. Even more confusingly, the immediate scene has that same bloke saying "Three of them coming in 20 degrees".)

EDIT: The Rebel fighter groups at Endor were evidently mixed type (composite wings?) since Red evidently had X and A wings (latter e.g. Red 2 and possibly Red 3).

[Dangermouse]

I don't think we learn from the movie what happens to Grey Leader. The Ywing pilot who crashes into the Imperial Destroyer has a very different helmet:

Grey Leader:


Ywing who Crashes:


You can tell since Grey Leader has a something red in the center of his helmet rather than a bat. A very minor nitpick though. I wanted to post it mainly because I really like the bat helmet.

Hard to tell who Green Leader was, other than he was an A Wing pilot.

It is really confusing. Did they use the same actor for all those shots? It wouldn't have been too difficult to use another actor.

Does the novelization tell more about the battle? I have never read the book but it might go into more detail.

With respect to the OP, the Tie Fighters do shoot down a Rebel fighter in the Death Star Tunnel. At the end it seemed as if only one or two were following the Falcon.

[Vympel]

When I get home, I'll post the part of the battle that deals with just who went careening into the ISD, though it might not be valuable, since I recall it being slightly different.

As to "Got him!" guy apparently dying and then "three of them coming in.." immediately after his supposed death, the only rationalization I can come up with for this blooper is that there was another TIE Interceptor behind him and the A-Wing that got killed was not his own.

[Vympel]

Oh and Dangermous, what prog do you use to take screencaps? Because powerdvd is driving me crazy, its too dark.

[Dangermouse]

Oh and Dangermous, what prog do you use to take screencaps? Because powerdvd is driving me crazy, its too dark.

I use Intervideo Win DVD. I think it came with my laptop.

[Cykeisme]

Were there ever any improvements on the TIE Fighter's biggest weaknesses(no shields, no hyperdrive, limited firepower compared to an X-Wing)?

Supposed TIE fighter "weaknesses" didn't hinder their performance at the Battle of Yavin, nor are aforementioned weaknesses strongly apparent in any other starfighter combat sequences in the movies.


This is reaching (some even disagree with clones being around in the OT), but are clones dependent on the support of a Force user? Sure, Sidious' influence enhanced and coordinated the efforts of even non-clones in the armed forces, but never mind that for a sec.
Clones almost always had a Jedi commanding* them in battle, and after the birth of the Empire, Sidious' powerful influence presumably extends everywhere.
If so, that explains the drop in starfighter pilot performance.

* By commanding, I mean charging headlong like a madman. Nevertheless, perhaps their presence was the important thing.

[Danny Bhoy]

I don't think we learn from the movie what happens to Grey Leader. The Ywing pilot who crashes into the Imperial Destroyer has a very different helmet:

Grey Leader:


Ywing who Crashes:

You can tell since Grey Leader has a something red in the center of his helmet rather than a bat. A very minor nitpick though. I wanted to post it mainly because I really like the bat helmet.

Never noticed the bat helmet.

Is the Y-Wing pilot who crashed into the ISD then the same one that said "There's too many of them!" when the opposing fighter forces first collided?

[LordShaithis]

What evidence is there for the DS2 itself launching bazillions of fighters upon shield loss?

[Danny Bhoy]

What evidence is there for the DS2 itself launching bazillions of fighters upon shield loss?

None as far as I can tell, not from the novelisation too. I said to Trooper that there was no evidence that fighters from the DS were comitted at any time. Made me wonder if there were at all operational squadrons on board at all. Sure there were pilot crews and we saw the TIE Bomber racked up in the hangar. But there is no evidence that there was anything more than say a normal ISD wing of TIEs.

Incidentally, I always presumed that the parade of TIEs during Augie's arrival were from the ISDs and not the DS.

[Dangermouse]

Is the Y-Wing pilot who crashed into the ISD then the same one that said "There's too many of them!" when the opposing fighter forces first collided?

Here you go. From left to right: Ywing Pilot who crashes, Grey Leader, "There's too many of them" Pilot.


All three look different to me.

Back to the OP. Lets break down the scene:

Watching the scene again, an Xwing, an Awing?, and the Falcon enter the trench followed by a Ywing, a second Xwing, and a second Awing. Three Imperial fighters then enter followed shortly by three of the newer Imperial fighters.

We then see an Imperial Fighter nick a wall and crash as the three newer fighters fly past. One of the Imperial Fighters then destroys the Xwing. The Rebels reach a junction. The Falcon and Red leader break left. The first Awing and the trailing Awing and Ywing from the second group break right.

Two Imperial Fighters and one of the newer fighters follow the group that breaks right. Two of the newer fighters follow the Falcon and Red Leader. Aside from the shot showing the destruction of the Xwing, we do not see the Imperial Fighters firing at the Rebels.

In the next sequence after the cut, the Falcon and the Xwing fly down a rather narrow corridor that is shaped like a cross. The two Imperial fighters are still in pursuit and rather close to the Falcon as seen in this image here:



Despite the close range, the Imperial fighters wait until the Rebels enter the Reactor Cavity before taking only one shot that is seen on screen. There is a Falcon cockpit shot in which the fighters could have been firing on the Falcon but one one shot is seen (shown below):



The Rebels then destroy the Death Star's reactor and escape.

Why were the Imperial fighters not continually firing on the Rebels? I am surprised that the fighters only attempted one shot against a very fast target that has withstood many fighter blasts in the past. Why were the rebels not engaged down the straight and confined corridor in which there was no room to manuever? I think there is some evidence for fighter incompetence in that the pilots did not take advantage of the narrow corridor and try to aggressively shoot and attempt to down the rebel ships. Taking only one shot against hostile fighters attacking a valuable target seems questionable.