What if the Borg had invaded Dominion space?

[dacis2]

And remember, we don't know how far Picard was. The Neutral Zone isn't right beside Sector 001. Even if it took 15 minutes to reach Earth, and how the battle sounded from the radio reports, in a coupla seconds, many feddie ships were heavily damaged and the cube smashed through the defence perimeter right after taking an alpha strike from the whole fleet.

[Spartan]

bozman wrote:

But Spartan, we have never seen the Borg throw everything that they need to against the Feds, the Hirogen, or the Voth. These races pretty much just know that the Borg are out there and ready to strike at any moment. Look at the Feds, ONE cube can take out an entire fleet (unless Voyager is part of that fleet, of course).

Naaah, if the Borg decided to get rid of the Dominion once and for all, they could do it. It would be a matter of resources. The Borg might take some losses, but in the end they would have a victory.

What are you talking about, less than a two dozen federation ships (less than 12 are one screen at any given time), ground the cube in FC to dust. Make up all the imaginary numbers you like, their are no more than a dozen seen in the FC battle, anything more is utter speculation. One borg cube can not take out an entire Federation fleet, a realistic Post DS9 fleet would number over a 100 ships.

Your wrong. The borg know about and were actively trying to assimulate those species; they just haven't been able to.

A few HUNDRED Federation ships can take down a Borg cube that is. And they would have lost if it weren't for Picard.


Alyeska wrote:

The Dominion control their part of the Galaxy yes, but looking at the numbers from the Dominion war they likely don't have more then a 100,000 ships or so. These are ships that are relatively equal to that of Federation ships. A single Borg cube can plow through 300 some Federation ships with at least half of them being higher end ships. A dozen Borg ships could savage the Dominion numbers even if they are killed. With the discovery of the Jem'Hadar cloning and the Founder changelings the Borg would redouble their effort to take the Dominion and likely send hundreds of cubes.

You must be joking. The Feds already had that cube on the ropes! Remember the cubes power grid was fluctatuing, and guess what it was not visibly repairing itself either. Picard just iced the cake, its not like he wave a magic wand, he used a tactic that should have been obvious to anyone with a functioning brain stem. Hey, guys lets all target the same spot. Hell, Data even said he wasn't even targeting a vital system. By the way, given the tens of thousand of ship you attribute to the federation, why weren't there a 100 ships present at the battle?

IMO the Borg would utilize their nano technology to subvert and control the Founders.

Well, your entitled to your opinion, but if you going to debate, explain how the borg will pull this off. Exspecially after their failure with S8472. The Changlings are don't have DNA for the nanoprobes to rewrite (ridiculous concept anyway), they're not even organic. Their form is completely malable, and variable.

Besides the Borg are no where near as tactically or strategically compotent as the Founders. Odds are the only way they'll even meet one will be at the place and choosing of the Founders.

Dark Primus wrote:

Maybe because the rest of the fleet had already been destroyed. The battle lasted from either several days or hours in high warp towards Earth.

Proof? Your speculating at most the EE arrives a couple hours after the battle begins. Watch the movie.

Besides i doubt Federation would only send 40-50 ships to begin with. Since 39 out of 40 ships at Wolf 359 had been destroyed in 10 minutes. I doubt Starfleet will make the same misstake twice. Considering the losses from the Fleet-Borg audio we can hear 4-6 ships being destroyed in just few seconds of battle. 40-50 ships won't cut it.

Have you watched BOBW recently? The ships assemble at Wolf 359 was pathetic. Mirandas, Excelcior class ships, even an old movie era constitution class. Of course they died instantly. BUT, the fleet that we see in FC are all new post Wolf 359 ship; and each one built from the keel up to combat the Borg. Also by the time of FC, the Feds have fought the borg on four seperate occassions. They were not changing in unprepared.
One could speculate that those 4-6 ships you mention were older vessels or less significant ships, and it still does not prove that they need 100 ships.

[consequences]

One ship ramming at speed should actually do it.

[Alyeska]

What are you talking about, less than a two dozen federation ships (less than 12 are one screen at any given time), ground the cube in FC to dust. Make up all the imaginary numbers you like, their are no more than a dozen seen in the FC battle, anything more is utter speculation. One borg cube can not take out an entire Federation fleet, a realistic Post DS9 fleet would number over a 100 ships.

The only reason they were able to defeat the Cube was because Picard showed up. So that number is meaningless.

Your wrong. The borg know about and were actively trying to assimulate those species; they just haven't been able to.

The Borg actively sent hundreds of Cubes against S8472. They sent dozens against another race they wanted to assimilate. The Federation ranked pretty damned low on the Assimilate tree. The Dominion having more resources and different technology would rank quite a lot higher.

You must be joking. The Feds already had that cube on the ropes! Remember the cubes power grid was fluctatuing, and guess what it was not visibly repairing itself either. Picard just iced the cake, its not like he wave a magic wand, he used a tactic that should have been obvious to anyone with a functioning brain stem. Hey, guys lets all target the same spot. Hell, Data even said he wasn't even targeting a vital system. By the way, given the tens of thousand of ship you attribute to the federation, why weren't there a 100 ships present at the battle?

That Borg Cube was not on the ropes. It had just crippled the Defiant and was chewing through the remaining ships VERY easily. The only reason it was defeated was because Picard showed up and told everyone where to fire at.

Oh, read my previous post. I never attributed "tens of thousands" for Fed ship numbers. So don't put words in my mouth.

Well, your entitled to your opinion, but if you going to debate, explain how the borg will pull this off. Exspecially after their failure with S8472. The Changlings are don't have DNA for the nanoprobes to rewrite (ridiculous concept anyway), they're not even organic. Their form is completely malable, and variable.

Same way they attempted to take over Voyager. Borg Nano probes can take over all sorts of things. This includes computers and organics.

Besides the Borg are no where near as tactically or strategically compotent as the Founders. Odds are the only way they'll even meet one will be at the place and choosing of the Founders.

Founders haven't exactly shown extreme brilliance either. Borg can handle the Founders just fine.

Dark Primus wrote:

Proof? Your speculating at most the EE arrives a couple hours after the battle begins. Watch the movie.

I suggest you watch the movie again. Data states that the E-E would take 3 hours at maximum warp to reach the stagging ground that the Borg were engaged at. And unless your going to argue that the E-E is so fast that it can travel from the Romulan Neutral zone to Earth in LESS then 3 hours time...

Have you watched BOBW recently? The ships assemble at Wolf 359 was pathetic. Mirandas, Excelcior class ships, even an old movie era constitution class. Of course they died instantly. BUT, the fleet that we see in FC are all new post Wolf 359 ship; and each one built from the keel up to combat the Borg. Also by the time of FC, the Feds have fought the borg on four seperate occassions. They were not changing in unprepared.

Have you watched it either? There were 2 Nebula class ships, 1 Ambassador, 1 Niagra, 1 Chyenne, and 1 New Orleans at the battle. These are not pathetic or old ships. They are some of the stronger ships the Federation has. And if you didn't notice, as of the end of the FC battle we see 2 Miranda class ships and 2 Oberth class ships fighting the Cube. So, doesn't seem like all those modern ships went up in smoke THAT quickly.

FYI, even the modern ships have not shown THAT much more defense against weaponry as the older ones. The Borg were able to smash through most Fed ships very quickly in BOBW and they did so again in FC. Considering just how quickly the Feds were dying and the length of the battle, its very obvious that the Federation had a large number of ships there. They had several days warning and were already warry of the Dominion and had fought a war with the Klingons. We know that AFTER the Dominion war they were able to call 39 Fed ships in under 5 minutes time to reach Sol. Its not a very big stretch of the imagination to see that the Feds sent a couple hundred ships against the Cube.

One could speculate that those 4-6 ships you mention were older vessels or less significant ships, and it still does not prove that they need 100 ships.

Ah yes, "speculate". As you are so fond of saying, prove it. We saw more Modern ships then old ones, so the ones that blew up had a greater chance of being newer ships. Afterall, you only want canon evidence, not logical speculation.

[consequences]

Ah yes, "speculate". As you are so fond of saying, prove it. We saw more Modern ships then old ones, so the ones that blew up had a greater chance of being newer ships.

Umm, could you explain that statement so that it makes sense please? Normally the weakest vessels would be the first to die in any sustained engagement.

[Alyeska]

Ah yes, "speculate". As you are so fond of saying, prove it. We saw more Modern ships then old ones, so the ones that blew up had a greater chance of being newer ships.

Umm, could you explain that statement so that it makes sense please? Normally the weakest vessels would be the first to die in any sustained engagement.

Spartan is quite fond of stating "No evidence" when disproving 300 Fed ships. Then he speculates that the old ships died first and I used his same line of reasoning "No evidence".

And as to the older ships being first to die. Typically you send your best ships in first to do the most damage.

[dacis2]

well...

I don't think 24 ships would be able to take out a borg cube. since feddie ships can only take 3-4 borg weapon hits, I'm sure they would have been taken out damned fast.

you saw it yourself, not many shielfs flared when the cube shot at them.

[consequences]

typically you try to hit the enemy in unison, and he kills the smaller ships first because it is the easiest way to reduce your firepower.

[dacis2]

I'm sure Picard told everyone to concentrate all their fire at one place because of a reaseon, maybe that system was more vital than Data thought.

[Acclamator]

I was always under the impression that Dominion ships were more powerful than Fed ships pound for pound.

A 700m Battlecruiser could probably take a Sovereign, for example.

And then there was the large Battleship at about a mile long that was pounded for ages by the Valiant (Defiant class) and laughed at it.

[Alyeska]

I was always under the impression that Dominion ships were more powerful than Fed ships pound for pound.

A 700m Battlecruiser could probably take a Sovereign, for example.

And then there was the large Battleship at about a mile long that was pounded for ages by the Valiant (Defiant class) and laughed at it.

That might be so, but it brings up the question as to how the Federation could have been the driving force to defeat the Dominion if the Dominion had 15,000 ships at the end of the war and the Federation had only a few thousand ships. Even if you assume the Federation had 8,000 ships with the Klingons and Romulans being similar, you come to the realization that the Alliance must have had better ships then the Dominion.

FYI the Breen, Cardiassians, and Dominion had a combined fleet of 30,000 ships.

[Vympel]

That might be so, but it brings up the question as to how the Federation could have been the driving force to defeat the Dominion if the Dominion had 15,000 ships at the end of the war and the Federation had only a few thousand ships. Even if you assume the Federation had 8,000 ships with the Klingons and Romulans being similar, you come to the realization that the Alliance must have had better ships then the Dominion.

FYI the Breen, Cardiassians, and Dominion had a combined fleet of 30,000 ships.

I haven't seen much DS9, but I was under the impression that the Federation couldn't beat the Dominion- hence crappy Deus Ex Machina that closed the wormhole with massive Dominion reinforcements en route?

After the wormhole closed, what was the total Breen/Caradassian/Dominion strength, and what portion of it did the Dominion make up?

[Alyeska]

That might be so, but it brings up the question as to how the Federation could have been the driving force to defeat the Dominion if the Dominion had 15,000 ships at the end of the war and the Federation had only a few thousand ships. Even if you assume the Federation had 8,000 ships with the Klingons and Romulans being similar, you come to the realization that the Alliance must have had better ships then the Dominion.

FYI the Breen, Cardiassians, and Dominion had a combined fleet of 30,000 ships.

I haven't seen much DS9, but I was under the impression that the Federation couldn't beat the Dominion- hence crappy Deus Ex Machina that closed the wormhole with massive Dominion reinforcements en route?

After the wormhole closed, what was the total Breen/Caradassian/Dominion strength, and what portion of it did the Dominion make up?

Ok, I should have qualified the statement that the Alliance could beat the Dominion only if the Wormhole was closed.

As of the last handful of episodes we find out the Dominion has 30,000 ships. We find this out because the Klingons state they can have 1,500 ships modified to defend against Breen warships ready at a specified time and someone comments the Klingons would be outnumbered 20-1 defending the Alliance borders. That equates to 30,000 ships. The generally accepted number is that the Dominion has the largest fleet. Say around 15,000 ships. The Breen are still new to the war and haven't taken many losses, but weren't a power house before the war. They are probably at 8-9,000 ships. That leaves the Cardassians at about 6-7,000 ships left at the end of the war.

Now the FKR Alliance has to be able to attack that fleet AND the OWPs we saw from Tears of the Prophets (they are located at Cardassia). So that means the FKR Alliance has to have comparable (if less) numbers, but they also need some pretty damned powerful ships to deal with the Dominion. So while big, the Dominion apparently was outgunned by the Alliance.

We know the 1.2km long dominion ship was twice the length and 3 times the power of a Galaxy class. You scale the thing down and you realize the Dominion Cruiser is probably dead equal with a Galaxy. Factor in the likes of Nebulas and Warbirds in the FKR Alliance and you realize they probably outgun the Dominion, BARELY.

So Dominion ships aren't vastly more powerful then what the Borg have already dealt with. Just different.

[Vympel]

Ah k, thanks

Did the Dominion have any tech advantages besides their strange beam weapons that ignored shields (IIRC)? How was this countered?

[Alyeska]

Ah k, thanks

Did the Dominion have any tech advantages besides their strange beam weapons that ignored shields (IIRC)? How was this countered?

They had the advantage of Cloning and mass produced warships. The Dominion was replacing its losses as quickly as they were destroyed. Sisko commented that the Romulans might have been kicking the shit out of them but that the Dominion had managed to replace all the losses. So they reproduce very quickly. This means that they have to take MASSIVE losses to cripple them and it requires an offensive war against them, not a defensive one.

As to the shield bypassing weapons. It was stated in the last episode of season 5 that the Federation had managed to defeat this Dominion threat. Wayoun is completely surprised to see DS9 sustaining Dominion weapon fire with shields up and working. Dukat comments that he has found it wise not to underestimate Federation technical capabilities.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I was always under the impression that Dominion ships were more powerful than Fed ships pound for pound.

A 700m Battlecruiser could probably take a Sovereign, for example.

And then there was the large Battleship at about a mile long that was pounded for ages by the Valiant (Defiant class) and laughed at it.

I disagree, it seems as though the UFPs actual warships (Sovereign, Akira, Defiant, ect..) are more powerful pound per pound than Dominion ships. Take a look at the Defiant, she can take on a handful of Dominion Attack Ships.

[Master of Ossus]

Ah yes, "speculate". As you are so fond of saying, prove it. We saw more Modern ships then old ones, so the ones that blew up had a greater chance of being newer ships.

Umm, could you explain that statement so that it makes sense please? Normally the weakest vessels would be the first to die in any sustained engagement.

Spartan is quite fond of stating "No evidence" when disproving 300 Fed ships. Then he speculates that the old ships died first and I used his same line of reasoning "No evidence".

And as to the older ships being first to die. Typically you send your best ships in first to do the most damage.

Alyeska, I'm confused. Are you trying to say that he is incorrect for stating that in a pitched battle, weak ships die first? That seems pretty true to me. And the order in which you use powerful and weak ships varies by the engagement and the commander. Some good officers use their weak ships first, in an effort to disrupt their enemy's formations and sow confusion. Others use the weak ships as a distraction or diversion, as Sisko did during his counter-attack on Terak Nor. In naval engagements, it is common--even constant--to use smaller, weaker ships to screen large and powerful ones. This tactic is also used to locate enemy fleet positions more accurately, though has largely gone out of favor with the advent of long-range, aircraft fired missiles that can significantly damage very large ships.

[Spartan]

Alyeska wrote:

The Borg actively sent hundreds of Cubes against S8472. They sent dozens against another race they wanted to assimilate. The Federation ranked pretty damned low on the Assimilate tree. The Dominion having more resources and different technology would rank quite a lot higher.

The Feds are low on the Borg priority list huh? Hmmm...so is that why the Borg Queen herself came to earth in FC? Don't be ridiculous.


The Borg cube was indeed on the ropes anyone who watched the movie came see that it is physically damage, and barely returning fire.

Yeah. This time you did'nt claim 10,000 Fed ships, but every regular to this borg knows that you hold that ridiculous veiwpoint.

Same way they attempted to take over Voyager. Borg Nano probes can take over all sorts of things. This includes computers and organics.

Now this is just silly, the federation is not the Dominion. And the borg were not assimulating the computers in TNG, they were stealing the information from them. Submit proof that a nanoprobe has ever assimulated an inorganic lifeform. Next you'll be claiming that they could assimulate a Horta.

Founders haven't exactly shown extreme brilliance either. Borg can handle the Founders just fine.

Please They can't even handle the Feds, and Janeway. There Pathetic.

I suggest you watch the movie again. Data states that the E-E would take 3 hours at maximum warp to reach the stagging ground that the Borg were engaged at. And unless your going to argue that the E-E is so fast that it can travel from the Romulan Neutral zone to Earth in LESS then 3 hours time...

Oh! Why don't you provide proof that the area of the neutral zone they were patroling was more than 3 hours from earth. Here a hint you might won't to review Mikes ST canon database. The neutral zone is extremely close to earth.

Have you watched it either? There were 2 Nebula class ships, 1 Ambassador, 1 Niagra, 1 Chyenne, and 1 New Orleans at the battle. These are not pathetic or old ships. They are some of the stronger ships the Federation has. And if you didn't notice, as of the end of the FC battle we see 2 Miranda class ships and 2 Oberth class ships fighting the Cube. So, doesn't seem like all those modern ships went up in smoke THAT quickly.

Hmm... Since they all died it hardly matters. But every vessel you mention is ineed old, and each one is inferior to their Romulan and Klingon counterparts. Besides are you really holding the veiw that the Fleet at Wolf 359 had equivalent military power to the Fleet in FC? Your the rabid trekkie right?

FYI, even the modern ships have not shown THAT much more defense against weaponry as the older ones. The Borg were able to smash through most Fed ships very quickly in BOBW and they did so again in FC. Considering just how quickly the Feds were dying and the length of the battle, its very obvious that the Federation had a large number of ships there. They had several days warning and were already warry of the Dominion and had fought a war with the Klingons. We know that AFTER the Dominion war they were able to call 39 Fed ships in under 5 minutes time to reach Sol. Its not a very big stretch of the imagination to see that the Feds sent a couple hundred ships against the Cube.

Wait now your saying the feds were dying rapidly. If the battle took as long as you prose, perhaps there combat power was slowly worn down.

Ah yes, "speculate". As you are so fond of saying, prove it. We saw more Modern ships then old ones, so the ones that blew up had a greater chance of being newer ships. Afterall, you only want canon evidence, not logical speculation.

Let me get this straight your argueing that a weak ship won't die faster than a strong one?

[Spartan]

dacis2b wrote:

I'm sure Picard told everyone to concentrate all their fire at one place because of a reaseon, maybe that system was more vital than Data thought.

Or it could be that they are so tactically inept (as evidenced by the conduct of the battle up till the arival of the Enterprise) they didn't think to concentrate fire on a single point.


Alyeska wrote:

Spartan is quite fond of stating "No evidence" when disproving 300 Fed ships. Then he speculates that the old ships died first and I used his same line of reasoning "No evidence".

And as to the older ships being first to die. Typically you send your best ships in first to do the most damage.

Doesn't matter a weaker ship will still be overwelhmed before a weak one. The ships don't even have to be old a Sovereign will out last a Defiant, etc. Plus if the Borg massively outgun them as you propose, then they need to maximize their fire (ie. bring everybody avalible), if they don't then they are tactical idiots.


dacis2b wrote:

I'm sure Picard told everyone to concentrate all their fire at one place because of a reaseon, maybe that system was more vital than Data thought.

Well, Data says otherwise. Additionally, sine the power grid was fluctating its a good bet that it was their target. Borg cubes we are told are highly decentralized, so that grid must run throughout the ship. Its very likely that they pick any of a number of points to concentrate their fire.


Kamakazie Sith wrote:

I disagree, it seems as though the UFPs actual warships (Sovereign, Akira, Defiant, ect..) are more powerful pound per pound than Dominion ships. Take a look at the Defiant, she can take on a handful of Dominion Attack Ships.

When we observe Domion tactics the almost always fight from a position of numeriacal superiority. After the Allies found a way to defeat their polaran weapons, The Dominion lost a great deal of their combat power. The attack ships almost always took on the Defiant with 2-3 attack ships. I would say that the battlecruisers are equal to or slightly superior to the Allies best except for possibly the Klingon N'evghar Battle cruiser.

[Alyeska]

The Feds are low on the Borg priority list huh? Hmmm...so is that why the Borg Queen herself came to earth in FC? Don't be ridiculous.


The Borg cube was indeed on the ropes anyone who watched the movie came see that it is physically damage, and barely returning fire.

Yeah. This time you did'nt claim 10,000 Fed ships, but every regular to this borg knows that you hold that ridiculous veiwpoint.

Read what I fucking wrote dumbass. I never claimed the Federation sent 10,000 ships against the Borg. And this barely firing Cube as you put it fired at the same amount we have seen all other cubes fire from BOBW to VGR Scorpion.

Now this is just silly, the federation is not the Dominion. And the borg were not assimulating the computers in TNG, they were stealing the information from them. Submit proof that a nanoprobe has ever assimulated an inorganic lifeform. Next you'll be claiming that they could assimulate a Horta.

7 of 9 used her nano probes in an attempt to take over Voyager. At another point her nano probes accidently got in contact with the 29th century holo projector and they assimilated the technology and created a new drone. The only reason Data wasn't assimilated was because of his type of brain, as stated.

Please They can't even handle the Feds, and Janeway. There Pathetic.

Irrelevent opinion with no factual information.

Oh! Why don't you provide proof that the area of the neutral zone they were patroling was more than 3 hours from earth. Here a hint you might won't to review Mikes ST canon database. The neutral zone is extremely close to earth.

The Neutral zone is extremely close to Earth but has never been shown to be closer then a days travel. I want you to provide evidence that the Neutral zone is less then 3 hours away. Fact of the matter is we have a minimum time frame of how quickly the E-E could have arrived.

Hmm... Since they all died it hardly matters. But every vessel you mention is ineed old, and each one is inferior to their Romulan and Klingon counterparts. Besides are you really holding the veiw that the Fleet at Wolf 359 had equivalent military power to the Fleet in FC? Your the rabid trekkie right?

Just poll the members of this forum as to how "rabid" I am. The Nebula is not old. The Ambassador and the New Orleans have greater torpedo capacity then most the ships in FC. Then there is the fact that we see OLD ships in FC. FYI the Nebula is better then any Romulan or Klingon ship.

Wait now your saying the feds were dying rapidly. If the battle took as long as you prose, perhaps there combat power was slowly worn down.

That is indeed a possibility. Regardless with a time span of more then 3 hours it is impossible for less then 50 Federation ships to have done any good.

Let me get this straight your argueing that a weak ship won't die faster than a strong one?

No you dumbfuck. You posted your entire argument my statements were meaningless because they were speculation and not canon fact. I am using your exact argument against you. Doesn't matter how logical the speculation is, you disagreed with 100% of what I said regardless of fact or logical speculation. I just did the same to you to show you how dumb that is.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska wrote:

Spartan is quite fond of stating "No evidence" when disproving 300 Fed ships. Then he speculates that the old ships died first and I used his same line of reasoning "No evidence".

And as to the older ships being first to die. Typically you send your best ships in first to do the most damage.

Doesn't matter a weaker ship will still be overwelhmed before a weak one. The ships don't even have to be old a Sovereign will out last a Defiant, etc. Plus if the Borg massively outgun them as you propose, then they need to maximize their fire (ie. bring everybody avalible), if they don't then they are tactical idiots.

Do you have any canon evidence of this? No? Well your speculation is meaningless without any canon evidence that the Borg actually were destroying the older ships first. Doesn't mater how logical your speculation might be, its worthless if its not fact.

[Spartan]

Alyeska wrote:

Do you have any canon evidence of this? No? Well your speculation is meaningless without any canon evidence that the Borg actually were destroying the older ships first. Doesn't mater how logical your speculation might be, its worthless if its not fact.

Oh...since when is common sense canon evidence? That should say a weak ship will die before a strong one. But were getting off topic, YOU speculated that there was a large federation presence in FC (No one else so all those ship by the way, maybe you have a special trekkie only copy). You further state that a hundred Fed ships are required to kill a cube (despite the fact that wev'e seen that Borg ships are not that strong, you might want to look in that canon data base). I'm still waiting on you to post proof of your hundred ship theory. Here's a hint, there isn't any. Why don't you just save face and concede?

[Spartan]

Read what I fucking wrote dumbass. I never claimed the Federation sent 10,000 ships against the Borg. And this barely firing Cube as you put it fired at the same amount we have seen all other cubes fire from BOBW to VGR Scorpion.

How very mature of you. Ahhh...baby doesn't like what mean old Spartan has to say.... Well sense you started it, go fuck yourself you goat-fucking, knuckle-dragging trekkie asshole. You consistently pull numbers out of ass, and consistently misquote and inflate Trek. You have no fucking clue on how to analyze data, and are so fucking biased its ridiculous. And yes bitch you did once claim that the federation had 10,000 ships, using DS9 fleets (ring any bell?).

7 of 9 used her nano probes in an attempt to take over Voyager. At another point her nano probes accidently got in contact with the 29th century holo projector and they assimilated the technology and created a new drone. The only reason Data wasn't assimilated was because of his type of brain, as stated.

7 of 9 used her nano probes in an attempt to take over Voyager. At another point her nano probes accidently got in contact with the 29th century holo projector and they assimilated the technology and created a new drone. The only reason Data wasn't assimilated was because of his type of brain, as stated.

It was a freak accident, prove that the nanoprobes normally function that way.

No they could decript Data's computer files. Duh!

Irrelevent opinion with no factual information.

I could say the same of you, however you know its true. Do I really need to post the many examples of Federation tactical idiocy? I will but I and most debaters consider this a given. I could compile a list, but a true accounting would probrobly require listing virtually every trek episode.

The Neutral zone is extremely close to Earth but has never been shown to be closer then a days travel. I want you to provide evidence that the Neutral zone is less then 3 hours away. Fact of the matter is we have a minimum time frame of how quickly the E-E could have arrived.

Hey three hours came from you. And its beside the point the neutral zone is close to Romulus and Earth. Hell its three days travel at max warp to DS9 and it is much further from Earth, and you have no idea what part of the neutral zone they were patroling. Even if it took them three days it doesn't prove your hundred ship theory. Remember BOBW? Well according to the DS9 episode Emissary, the Cube took 6 days (post the script quote when I get home) from the time they captured Picard to reach Earth. The Federations response in all that time 39 ships.

Just poll the members of this forum as to how "rabid" I am. The Nebula is not old. The Ambassador and the New Orleans have greater torpedo capacity then most the ships in FC. Then there is the fact that we see OLD ships in FC. FYI the Nebula is better then any Romulan or Klingon ship.

I don't need to take a poll, I have read your posts, here and at spacebattles.

The ambassador class is old or did you miss "Yesterdays Enterprise" where its stated that the E-C is twenty plus years old. That was stated year before FC and the class is undoubtedly much older for it to so widely used given the Federation low ship production rate (stated in BOBW pt 2).

Please, put down the crack pipe, a Nebula is no match for a Warbird or a K'tinga or Ne'vargha. Those ships regularly spanked the GCS Enterprise. Sure the Neb can take a couple Cardassians (ref: the Wounded), but your way overestimating the potency of pre-BOBW pt ships.

That is indeed a possibility. Regardless with a time span of more then 3 hours it is impossible for less then 50 Federation ships to have done any good.

Because you say so? Nuh-uh not good enough. Hit us with some weapons calculation. Oh but wait you never do that do you, perhaps the math is to difficult?

No you dumbfuck. You posted your entire argument my statements were meaningless because they were speculation and not canon fact. I am using your exact argument against you. Doesn't matter how logical the speculation is, you disagreed with 100% of what I said regardless of fact or logical speculation. I just did the same to you to show you how dumb that is.

Actually, you just showed how incredibly stupid you are. Since you have not provided a single ounce of proof, and are contradicted by the onscreen evidence in FC. Okay, I'll be charitable about this, I concede that you are right a single Borg cube could mop the floor with 100 Federation ships (if the shuttles or runnabouts). Is that better?

Perhaps in a moment of clarity you will realize that if it takes 100 (weak ass ships as you suggest), then 20-30 heavily armed vessel designed to fight borg should be able to as well (strangly enough that what we see in FC).

[Alyeska]

How very mature of you. Ahhh...baby doesn't like what mean old Spartan has to say.... Well sense you started it, go fuck yourself you goat-fucking, knuckle-dragging trekkie asshole. You consistently pull numbers out of ass, and consistently misquote and inflate Trek. You have no fucking clue on how to analyze data, and are so fucking biased its ridiculous. And yes bitch you did once claim that the federation had 10,000 ships, using DS9 fleets (ring any bell?).

I started it? Who went about calling who a rabid fan first?

And 10,000 is to many? Well you claim the Dominion had superior ships compared to the Federation, so how the hell can the Federation have assisted in the defeat of the Dominion if the Dominion had 15,000 ships and the Federation has LESS then 10,000 ships? Care to explain that oh brilliant one?

It was a freak accident, prove that the nanoprobes normally function that way.

Hmm... The fact that 7 of 9 INTENTIONALLY used her nano probes in an attempt to take over Voyager kinda shows proof. That and the fact that Seven stated that Nano probes automatically do things to things when seperated from the Drone indicates how they can and do assimilate both technology and biology.

No they could decript Data's computer files. Duh!

Really, then if they could decript his files why was the Queen asking him to reveal the code rather then use it herself? Ever think of that eh?

I could say the same of you, however you know its true. Do I really need to post the many examples of Federation tactical idiocy? I will but I and most debaters consider this a given. I could compile a list, but a true accounting would probrobly require listing virtually every trek episode.

So you state the Feds are pathetic. Then you state because the Feds can defeat both the Dominion and the Borg that this means the Dominion is better then the borg? Riiiiiight

Hey three hours came from you. And its beside the point the neutral zone is close to Romulus and Earth. Hell its three days travel at max warp to DS9 and it is much further from Earth, and you have no idea what part of the neutral zone they were patroling. Even if it took them three days it doesn't prove your hundred ship theory. Remember BOBW? Well according to the DS9 episode Emissary, the Cube took 6 days (post the script quote when I get home) from the time they captured Picard to reach Earth. The Federations response in all that time 39 ships.

Three hours comes from the movie. That and there is the fact that we KNOW that Earth is not that close to the Romulan border. It has been stated time and time again that it takes DAYS to travel from Earth to else where. TNG All Good Things has the Enterprise taking more then a day to reach from Earth to the Romulan border.

FYI, in Voyager End Game they managed to get 20+ ships to meet a Borg Sphere in under 5 minutes time. BOBW is not a good distinction for how fast the Federation can muster ships. Also FYI. That is 6 days for the Cube to reach Earth. How many days for the Cube to reach Wolf 359? It took THAT many days for them to assemble 40 ships.

I don't need to take a poll, I have read your posts, here and at spacebattles.

Funny, everyone else seems to think I'm just fine. I guess your just an idiot for making such ignorant statements.

The ambassador class is old or did you miss "Yesterdays Enterprise" where its stated that the E-C is twenty plus years old. That was stated year before FC and the class is undoubtedly much older for it to so widely used given the Federation low ship production rate (stated in BOBW pt 2).

It is also a larger ship with significant weapons capabilities. As we already know Fed ships can be retrofit with time.

Please, put down the crack pipe, a Nebula is no match for a Warbird or a K'tinga or Ne'vargha. Those ships regularly spanked the GCS Enterprise. Sure the Neb can take a couple Cardassians (ref: the Wounded), but your way overestimating the potency of pre-BOBW pt ships.

I guess you missed the little bit where the Nebula is made up of the same parts of the Galaxy. It uses the same warp core but in a smaller profile thus providing greater shield projection. The GCS is stated as being just barely outgunned by the Warbird. The Nebula has twice the forward torpedo capacity as the GCS. This leaves the Nebula to SIGNIFICANTLY outgun the Warbird in fights because it can bring most of its weapons to bear in the forward arc. And the K'Tinga? Are you a complete fucking idiot? That is the ship featured in Star Trek THE MOTION PICTURE. Your going to claim that a 80 year old ship is better then a Nebula class ship? The Nebula is one of the Federations most powerful ships and as such can kick the crap out of most other Alpha and Beta quadrant ships. It is reasonably matched by a Warbird, outguns a GCS and Vorcha, is slightly outgunned by a Sovereign or Negh'Var, and outguns a Dominion heavy cruiser.

Because you say so? Nuh-uh not good enough. Hit us with some weapons calculation. Oh but wait you never do that do you, perhaps the math is to difficult?

So, what weapon calcs do you have for the borg? The only ones that exist are based on either FC which we dont know how much intial damage it took or Scorpion in which Cubes survive planet explossions and their shield rating is in the TT range.

Actually, you just showed how incredibly stupid you are. Since you have not provided a single ounce of proof, and are contradicted by the onscreen evidence in FC. Okay, I'll be charitable about this, I concede that you are right a single Borg cube could mop the floor with 100 Federation ships (if the shuttles or runnabouts). Is that better?

Perhaps in a moment of clarity you will realize that if it takes 100 (weak ass ships as you suggest), then 20-30 heavily armed vessel designed to fight borg should be able to as well (strangly enough that what we see in FC).

I guess you are blind and missed the numerous sited examples. Thats ok, its a common problem that trolls face. I also see where you completely missed the fact that BOBW had a relatively equal mix of large and small ships as FC did. I guess you ALSO missed the bit where both the TNG and DS9 TM state that the same torpedoes were in service in both engagements. Torpedoes are the primary striking power of Fed ships. Hmm, fire power change in the Federation between BOBW and FC didn't change THAT much. So how can it waltz through 40 Fed ships in BOBW in 10 minutes but as you claim manage to be defeated by 2 dozen Fed ships in FC while in combat for more then 3 hours?

[Alyeska]

Alyeska wrote:

Do you have any canon evidence of this? No? Well your speculation is meaningless without any canon evidence that the Borg actually were destroying the older ships first. Doesn't mater how logical your speculation might be, its worthless if its not fact.

Oh...since when is common sense canon evidence? That should say a weak ship will die before a strong one. But were getting off topic, YOU speculated that there was a large federation presence in FC (No one else so all those ship by the way, maybe you have a special trekkie only copy). You further state that a hundred Fed ships are required to kill a cube (despite the fact that wev'e seen that Borg ships are not that strong, you might want to look in that canon data base). I'm still waiting on you to post proof of your hundred ship theory. Here's a hint, there isn't any. Why don't you just save face and concede?

And I was pointing out using your line of logic that you have zero evidence that it was the weak ships destroyed first.