RotS Opening Battle

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-06-27 09:39pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
Because it shows what an excellent pilot and combatant he is. Here's Anakin at pretty much his height before his fall.
Sorry, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. Him getting rid of the buzzdroids involved banging into Obi's fighter a few times and then shooting at them. Boring. You don't think a much better display of his piloting skills would have been Anakin caught up in a chaotic, swirling dogfight, blasting everything in sight and narrowly avoiding enemy laser blasts?

Which we got, thankfully, in the Clone Wars cartoon. Lucas should have just turned over all the action choreography to the people who made the cartoons.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-06-27 09:54pm

Grasscutter wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:
Because it shows what an excellent pilot and combatant he is. Here's Anakin at pretty much his height before his fall.
Sorry, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. Him getting rid of the buzzdroids involved banging into Obi's fighter a few times and then shooting at them. Boring. You don't think a much better display of his piloting skills would have been Anakin caught up in a chaotic, swirling dogfight, blasting everything in sight and narrowly avoiding enemy laser blasts?
Which we got, thankfully, in the Clone Wars cartoon. Lucas should have just turned over all the action choreography to the people who made the cartoons.

The cartoon fights had good and bad parts. Some of the Jedi were extremely wanked out, and some weapons, such as the lances and the Seismic Tank, were obviously designed for style rather than substance

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-06-28 01:42am

Why couldnt they have made a mixed class Republic fleet.

That would have been more interesting to look at. We should have also had more dogfights with all kinds of Republic fighters.

Anakin and Obi Wan banter wasnt that bad. The problem is that it did nothing to move the plot along.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-28 01:47am

Anakin and Obi Wan banter wasnt that bad. The problem is that it did nothing to move the plot along.

I believe its purpose was to establish the comradary between the two. I didnt mind it at all.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2005-06-28 02:04am

I had already heard about the shortness of the beginning battle scene so I wasn't disappointed. I'm still a little unhappy with the whole thing. I do wish they had a little more capital ship action and some fighter action. That would have made the movie longer, yeah, but it would work if they had taken out the buzz droid scenes.

The banter I didn't mind, which is why I'm not totally upset by the beginning.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-06-28 03:14am

One question on my part. The ARC-170's need S-Foils whyyyyy? I've only seen the film once, and wondered that anyway. Even for the X's. Kinda off topic here, but you people reminded me.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-06-28 03:26am

Nephtys wrote:One question on my part. The ARC-170's need S-Foils whyyyyy? I've only seen the film once, and wondered that anyway. Even for the X's. Kinda off topic here, but you people reminded me.

According to the ROTS ICS, the S-foils radiate heat, which helps shielding. They also make the ARC-170 fly better while in an atmosphere.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2005-06-28 03:54am

IMHO, what would have been really cool is if more Buzz Droids survived to skip over to Anakin's fighter, then having Anakin promptly scraping all but one them off on the hull of a Venator with a bit of precision flying.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-06-28 04:59pm

Buzz-droids: dumb, the characterization could have been established by other means -- say, after they landed. Why no force-shove? Why waste time dithering -- Anakin should have knocked them off at high speed immediately, without asking -- a choice Obi-wan would strenuously object to... but it gets the character choices across just as well.

They really needed a strategic view and explanation for the Invisible Hand (what, their flagship is a free market economy?) not simply thrusting at a ridiculous speed (as SW ships are shown to have) and jumping out. Show the destroyers interposing themselves, thus preventing it from using full thrust; show the interdictor cruisers (if they were present). Talk about how the only gap in the shield is distance X away, or whatever the reason was.

Or even do it differently: the jedi get on board, and two seconds later the ship enters hyperspace, escaping. The enemy do not at first realize they are on board. They rescue Palpatine, commander the ship just as they do in the movie, and hyperspace-jump back to Coruscant. The rest of the separatist fleet is left fuming that they didn't bring any interdictor cruisers (interdiction was the last thing they had on their minds when they went on the abduction mission).

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-28 08:48pm

I do not understand these objections to no explanation for why the Invisible Hand didn't leave .... ummm ... HELLLLOOOOOOOOOOO?!?!?!

"I sense Count Dooku."- Anakin

"And I sense a trap."- Obi-Wan

"Two Jedi have landed in the main hangar bay!"- Neimodian Captain

"Just as Count Dooku predicted!" - General Grievous

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-06-28 10:28pm

Vympel wrote:I'll say it again- imagine if the RotJ space battle was remade, with each shot etc identical, but using RotS CGI. *Drool*

Ehh...

There are a couple of parts that could use a bit of a touchup (whenever the Falcon's cockpit is facing the ImpStars is particularly egregious) but for the most part ROTJ is still one of the most beautiful and powerful space battles ever seen. If you're going to just keep every shot exactly the same, I'm not sure how much you'd be gaining from doing it in CGI - and CGI carries a certain luster to it that I'm not sure would be an improvement over the original footage.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-29 10:28am

Uraniun235 wrote: Ehh...

There are a couple of parts that could use a bit of a touchup (whenever the Falcon's cockpit is facing the ImpStars is particularly egregious) but for the most part ROTJ is still one of the most beautiful and powerful space battles ever seen. If you're going to just keep every shot exactly the same, I'm not sure how much you'd be gaining from doing it in CGI - and CGI carries a certain luster to it that I'm not sure would be an improvement over the original footage.

More weapons fire, far superior explosions, etc. Sure, change it a little, I don't care.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-29 01:05pm

Vympel wrote:I do not understand these objections to no explanation for why the Invisible Hand didn't leave .... ummm ... HELLLLOOOOOOOOOOO?!?!?!

"I sense Count Dooku."- Anakin

"And I sense a trap."- Obi-Wan

"Two Jedi have landed in the main hangar bay!"- Neimodian Captain

"Just as Count Dooku predicted!" - General Grievous

On the other hand, I kinda figured Dooku (or his master) predicted that the Jedi would stage a rescue, but that prediction was based on the solid assumption that the Republic fleet would prevent the IH's escape.
Tractor beams, a gap in the planetary shield, even just blocking its path.. all they'd have to do is pop a line of dialogue in somewhere to explain those three possibilities to the everyman viewer. I figured the Republic fleet commanders would think they're preventing the IH from escaping, while that's actually all part of the master plan.

Am I making any sense?

Grasscutter wrote:You don't think a much better display of his piloting skills would have been Anakin caught up in a chaotic, swirling dogfight, blasting everything in sight and narrowly avoiding enemy laser blasts?

Indeed.
While the buzzdroids are somewhat pointless, I don't mind it. I'd rather they also had Anakin blasting some enemy starfighters, as well. Jus ten to fifteen seconds of Force-enhanced dogfighting (like the cartoon) would do it for me, really.

Hardball wrote:Oddball, you mean. Cody wasn't a pilot, and I doubt he was a participant in the Battle of Coruscant.

Oh dear! It appears I've made a terrible mistake!
*putters about the place looking nervous*

General Brock · Post by **General Brock** » 2005-06-29 05:25pm

Spacebeard wrote:Yeah, I hated the beginning of RoTS but loved the rest. It seems to me that all of the vapid, childish antics Lucas is apparently obligated to stuff into newer movies were compressed into the first twenty minutes of RoTS, allowing the remainder of the film to be a serious, emotional, and enjoyable movie.

My beefs were mainly the aforementioned emotional detachment on the part of most characters; R2 and Grievous acted more like they were in a desperate battle for the fate of the galaxy than Obi-Wan, Anakin, or Dooku did. I think a Jedi's stoic calm should feel more like Obi-Wan's cool confidence in ANH, or Luke's in ROTJ, not like two guys cracking jokes as if they're playing a video game. Palpatine's boredom at least seems in character: he's self-satisfied and impatient for his unwitting pawns to carry out his plans.

I also hated the cartoony taunts of the battle droids ("Stupid astro droid!") and the "rock the ship back and forth and make everyone slide across the floor" shtick, which got old after Charlie Chaplin did it and forces you to painfully rationalize it in terms of fluctuating artificial gravity.

The "ray shield" struck me as pointless, also; the battle would have been little different if they had simply charged onto the bridge rather than being captured, and it begs the question of why dangerous prisoners were taken to the ship's control room instead of the brig. They may have disarmed Obi-Wan and Anakin, but R2 still had a trick up his sleeve... leave it to the Trade Federation to underestimate a droid.

Finally, I never noticed anything wrong with "NO!", but the line which made me cringe both times I heard it was the Trade Federation captain whining "All batteries fire, fire!".

Good points, but how many fans have seen Charlie Chaplin? Who one remembers doing the trick counts for more than who did it first or best.

Also, the Separatists and Jedi were not acting out of character for their situations, I think.

General Brock · Post by **General Brock** » 2005-06-29 05:27pm

HemlockGrey wrote:The big problem with the space battle was that they focused too much on Anakin getting rid of the buzz-droids. I have no idea why they thought that would be cooler than a kickass dog-fight.

Probably the same guys who thought pod racing was cool.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-06-29 05:48pm

I think they should shown lt.Cmdr. Needa and his strike force (Strike force of the home fleet (IIRC)). This would have shown that why Invisible Hand can't leave and that the Republic fleet isn't all clones.

Spacebeard · Post by **Spacebeard** » 2005-06-29 07:26pm

General Brock wrote: Good points, but how many fans have seen Charlie Chaplin? Who one remembers doing the trick counts for more than who did it first or best.

Uh, I wasn't accusing Lucas of having ripped off Charlie Chaplin; I don't care who he's inspired by as long as he makes good movies. That entire sequence reminded me of the mindless slapstick you'd see in a 20s or 30s silent movie. It also forces us to invent tortured rationalizations for the Invisible Hand rocking back and forth like a storm-tossed cruiser liner or Grievous' cloak flapping in the wind.

There can be a balance between humor and drama (see ANH and ESB); in my opinion, though, the opening sequence of RoTS goes way over the line. I think the test is whether the humor and drama complement one another. For example, C-3PO's antics in the ESB asteroid field exacerbate Han's frustration in a desperate situation. When I watched the rocking ship and muttering battle droids, though, they reduced the scene to a farce.

Also, the Separatists and Jedi were not acting out of character for their situations, I think.

No, the Separatists certainly weren't acting out of character: they'd already been established as bumbling, comical, unthreatening villains in Episodes I & II. I just felt that they went way over the top in the RoTS opening and were reduced to cartoon characters whose only purpose was to mutter some corny laugh line before being cut down by a lightsaber (or set aflame by rocket fuel). I liked them much better in their later appearances on Utapau and Mustafar; the battle droids remained mostly silent and the Neimoidians were no longer grating to the ears.

As for the Jedi, I think the problem is that the film was unable to make me believe that they were on a desperate life-or-death mission to rescue their head of state. I can understand that Jedi are meant to be emotionally detached and aloof, but Obi-Wan and Anakin in this battle came off, as someone else put it, as if they kicking back in front of the tube.

I always thought the biggest problem with the prequels was that they didn't have the emotional heights and depths of the original trilogy, and this opening is a perfect example. Obi-Wan, Anakin, Dooku, and Palpatine all seemed bored and detached. Compare this to the desperation of the trench run in ANH, or the turmoil of the final duel in ROTJ. The remainder of RoTS got this right: consider the wordless scene in which Anakin decides to come to Palpatine's aid, or the moment when the younglings emerge from hiding and ask "Master Skywalker" for help. I don't really have the words to explain the difference, but it's there.

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2005-06-29 11:32pm

Spacebeard wrote:There can be a balance between humor and drama (see ANH and ESB); in my opinion, though, the opening sequence of RoTS goes way over the line. I think the test is whether the humor and drama complement one another. For example, C-3PO's antics in the ESB asteroid field exacerbate Han's frustration in a desperate situation. When I watched the rocking ship and muttering battle droids, though, they reduced the scene to a farce.

Absolutely right. Too much of the humor in the prequels just seems so badly forced. The groan-inducing antics of Jar-Jar, and the needless dumbling-down of droids, whether it be acting like The Three Stooges in TPM, Threepio's downright awful use of "This such a drag" and the like in AOTC, and all the sheer nonsensical behavior of the battle droids in the beginning of ROTS.

Contrast this with the quite humorous bantering between Han/Luke/Leia in ANH and Han/Leia in TESB.