Circumcisions and cleft palettes

[Rye]

I've been in some anti circumcision debates recently, and cleft palettes come up. Essentially, the argument goes that since there's no harmful side effects for having a cleft palette, fixing it when they're born is an aesthetic change, to the taste of the parents, they don't wait till the child is old enough to consent. They say then, why can't the same be applied to circumcision.

So what is the correct way to answer this comparison? So far, I've answered because foreskin is not a birth defect, and there's no real reason for it to be considered one, that that is a total invention, whereas cleft palettes cause obvious problems with "normality" from the get go, since the face is always visible. Still, I don't really find that convincing and would like some other opinions on how to respond to it.

[Flagg]

Because fixing a birth defect, and removing a large chunk of a sexual organ are 2 very different things. Not to mention one is repairing something that is not normally found in human beings, and the other is mutilating a perfectly healthy and functioning organ.

[General Zod]

That's seems fairly decent. Though personally I'd constantly reem home the bit about how foreskin is not a birth defect whenever they tried deviating back to that kind of analogy.

[Frank Hipper]

Well, for one, A BABY CAN'T FUCKING NURSE WITH A CLEFT PALETTE!

Try drilling a hole from your nostril through the roof of your mouth and see how easy it is to swallow.
What a bunch of fucking Tardy McTards you're arguing, Rye.
Beat them, harshly...

[Rye]

Yeah, but it's not like cleft palettes are life threatening, is it? The "it's not usually found in humans" thing seems like peer pressure, which is often argued pro circumcision.

Thinking about it, I think you could argue that fixing a cleft palette is good for the amount of positve influenceo n life, because for the amount of aesthetic change, very little tissue is damaged, while how they interact with people daily will be vastly improved. With circumcision, you're removing 50% of specialised sex tissue from the penis for an aesthetic change that will not be as widely relied upon as a normal face.

[felineki]

There's really no comparison. Yes, they are both "aesthetic" in a way, but foreskin is a natural, normal body part... it's -intended- to be there. A cleft palette isn't. Also, circumcision -does- have side effects.

[Rye]

Well, for one, A BABY CAN'T FUCKING NURSE WITH A CLEFT PALETTE!

I didn't know that. Well that's about as good an argument as I'm likely to get.

[Frank Hipper]

Yeah, but it's not like cleft palettes are life threatening, is it? The "it's not usually found in humans" thing seems like peer pressure, which is often argued pro circumcision.

Thinking about it, I think you could argue that fixing a cleft palette is good for the amount of positve influenceo n life, because for the amount of aesthetic change, very little tissue is damaged, while how they interact with people daily will be vastly improved. With circumcision, you're removing 50% of specialised sex tissue from the penis for an aesthetic change that will not be as widely relied upon as a normal face.

A baby cannot nurse without help with a cleft palette, and repairing them is repairing a major defect that leads to an enormopus benefit in terms of quality of life.

Leaving a foreskin intact does not mean a child is at risk of starvation, or any other form of harm. Cutting a perfectly functional part of your body off for no reason leads to no increase in quality of life, and it's brutally obvious that it reduces quality of sexual gratification.

I'm not even seeing a real analogy between the two.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, but it's not like cleft palettes are life threatening, is it?

It can be.

Even a minor palatte defect can cause nursing troubles, leading to malnutrition and failure to thrive. Used to be, before there was surgery, most babies with severe cleft palatte either died from starvation/malnutrition, or from pneunomia caused by inhaling milk while trying to eat

[DPDarkPrimus]

An uncircumcised penis is not a birth defect. Simple as that.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Essentially, the argument goes that since there's no harmful side effects for having a cleft palette, fixing it when they're born is an aesthetic change, to the taste of the parents, they don't wait till the child is old enough to consent. They say then, why can't the same be applied to circumcision.

Because circumcision does have the harmful side effect of reducing the ability for sexual pleasure. IIRC it also increases risk of infection or cancer. Therefore the two are not the same, so you can't apply the same logic to them.

[Zero]

Circumcision is actually harmful to the organ, and can lead to infections which may even cause removal of the organ to be necessary in extreme cases. However, in the US, at least, most people haven't even seen an uncircumsized penis, and would possibly have objections to having sex with a man with an uncircumsized penis. I'm not saying that this justifies circumcision at all, simply pointing out one reason that circumcision may improve quality of life, as in the US, despite the fact that sexual pleasure will be lessened, the ability to actually get sex is improved. Personally, I'm a little pissed that I was circumsized, and I don't think I'll have one for my children.

[Junghalli]

Circumcision is actually harmful to the organ, and can lead to infections which may even cause removal of the organ to be necessary in extreme cases.

I thought as much. It exposes tissue which is designed to be kept under a layer of skin. That just can't be healthy.

However, in the US, at least, most people haven't even seen an uncircumsized penis

Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that circumsized men were in the minority.

and would possibly have objections to having sex with a man with an uncircumsized penis.

If she doesn't object to my complete and utter lack of dating skills and couch potatoe physique I don't see this becoming much of an issue. Seriously, even if circumsicion was the norm (which I doubt personally, do you have any statistics?) I really don't see the aesthetic argument at all. I mean, honestly, unless you're some kind of cassanova/horndog or a prostitute/gigilo very, very few people are ever going to get a good look at your sex organs and most of them will be close intimates. For christ sake, I could have had a cockring implanted years ago and at this point in my life nobody would even know it but me, that's how few people ever see the fucking thing in this culture.

[Zero]

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/laumann/

That's a report on circumcision in the US.

Overall 77% of the 1284 US-born men surveyed in the main NHSLS sample were circumcised, compared with 42% of the non-US born men.

Admittedly less then I'd expected. Judging from my talks with most women here, an uncircumsized penis is a rare things, but this may be due to the area where I live as much as anything else. 77% still is not, by any means, a minority.

[Broomstick]

When reading those statistics, remember that fewer and fewer circumcisms are performed in the US each year. If you looked at the stats for 70 year old men circumcism would be much higher than 77%, but for boys 5 years old it will be much lower than 77%.

Circumcism is slowly fading in the US (except for Jews and Muslims, where it will persist for religious reasons)

[Junghalli]

Overall 77% of the 1284 US-born men surveyed in the main NHSLS sample were circumcised, compared with 42% of the non-US born men.

A lot more than I thought. I'd have thought it'd be much lower. Still, 23% of the population noncircumsized (or more than two out of every ten men) means it's hardly a rarity, and definitely wouldn't merit me getting my shotgun sawed off out of some bizzarre desire to "fit in".

Admittedly less then I'd expected. Judging from my talks with most women here, an uncircumsized penis is a rare things, but this may be due to the area where I live as much as anything else

Everything I know about that subject I got from Seinfeld, apparently in New York, Hollywood, or both it's the other way around.

When reading those statistics, remember that fewer and fewer circumcisms are performed in the US each year.

That may have something to do with it. The date on the survey is 1997, in which I would have been in junior high.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm pretty sure there are greater health risks associated with cleft palettes.

[Zero]

If you read the study I posted, it actually does explain that uncircumsized men do get less oral and anal, and typically maturbated less... perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women in the US think an uncircumsized penis looks awkward?

[Flagg]

If you read the study I posted, it actually does explain that uncircumsized men do get less oral and anal, and typically maturbated less... perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women in the US think an uncircumsized penis looks awkward?

I know when I was in preschool and saw one of my friends in the bathroom I thought he had something wrong with his. In reality I was the one who was messed up.

[Plekhanov]

Circumcision kills about 229 babies a year in the US link

MORBIDITY Deaths from circumcision and its complications are estimated at 229 per year based on a ratio from a British study. There are about 178 times the number of circumcision deaths than schoolyard violent deaths each year.

There's also an excellent (html so can't post it here) table which points out that whilst circumcision may prevent 6.3 deaths from Testis of Penile Cancer per 100,000 that number of circumcisions will lead to 1000 complications & 18 deaths.

[Netko]

Heh, interesting how in comparison to the US, over here in uncut old Europe, when you actually need to get cut for medical reasons, the doctors (well, those that care anyway) try to cut as little as possible as to make it seem more like the "natural" specimen.

Talk about exact opposites in terms of peer pressure.

[wintermute]

Shit. In my country the damn doctors have somehow made the population believe that circumcision is absoutely needed and that you need it done to be a 'man'. Ugh. It's got to the point that I've heard stories that if an uncircumcised man goes into the armed forces the army doctors and the superior officers will force an operation. To make it worse, the doctors keep on putting flawed papers regarding the supposed benefits and say nothing about the dangers.

Thankfully I'm not circumcised and I don't have to serve in the armed forces. Who could have thought that a country like S.Korea would be like this?[/b]

[Enforcer Talen]

If you read the study I posted, it actually does explain that uncircumsized men do get less oral and anal, and typically maturbated less... perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women in the US think an uncircumsized penis looks awkward?

I know when I was in preschool and saw one of my friends in the bathroom I thought he had something wrong with his. In reality I was the one who was messed up.

I had the same exp when I watched a porno.

Whats that???

[Flagg]

If you read the study I posted, it actually does explain that uncircumsized men do get less oral and anal, and typically maturbated less... perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women in the US think an uncircumsized penis looks awkward?

I know when I was in preschool and saw one of my friends in the bathroom I thought he had something wrong with his. In reality I was the one who was messed up.

I had the same exp when I watched a porno.

Whats that???

That was pretty much my reaction. And I'm embarassed to say that I, along with most of the other kids made fun of him for it.

[Junghalli]

If you read the study I posted, it actually does explain that uncircumsized men do get less oral and anal, and typically maturbated less... perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women in the US think an uncircumsized penis looks awkward?

All of which are things I've never been much into personally, I really don't see much substance to the quality of life argument. For fucks sake, America is a country with a very strong nudity taboo, very few people ever see the fucking thing!
Also, the operation can always be performed later in life if you want it for some incomprehensible reason. Whereas once you chop it off it's not growing back.