Lightsaber Combat forms

[Samored]

As I understand it there are supposed to be seven "forms" of lightsaber combat. Can anyone explain what they are in sufficient detail? Despite having individual names it looks like there are only three distinct forms: 75% offense/25% defense; 75% defense 25% offense; and Force-boosted hampster-in-a-wheel whirling Yoda-fu. Everything else looks like just some minor variation of these three.

[John Chris]

Right here, young Padawan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

BTW, my favorite styles are Makashi and Soresu.

[Glimmervoid]

and Force-boosted hampster-in-a-wheel whirling Yoda-fu.

It was my belief that it was called Monkey on Crack.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Non can stand against form 7 Vaapad variation (Windu's style)

[Samored]

Right here, young Padawan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

BTW, my favorite styles are Makashi and Soresu.

I'd read that. The problem I have is that there aren't seven distinct styles of lightsaber combat. There are three. To wit:

"the Shii-Cho form is good versus many enemies wielding conventional blaster weaponry but weak versus a single lightsaber-wielding enemy and Force powers." So a combat form that's designed based on traditional bladed weapons combat is well suited to face opponents with energy weapons but not someone with a knife or pointy stick? Bullcrap.

Makashi- basic lightsaber fencing "It is described as being very elegant, powerful, and requiring extreme precision, allowing the user to attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out. The form relies on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts - as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms." How is this form different from one based on "Ancient sword-fighting traditions held key principles of blade combat that were implemented by early Jedi Masters in the rather basic technical tactics of Form I."? Anwser, it's not.

Soresu- 75% defense 25% offense, optimized to deflect blaster shots. But wasn't Shii-Cho supposed to be good against blaster wielding opponents? What's the frellin' difference?

Ataru- Monkey-on-crack.

Shien / Djem So- 75% Offense 25% defense, how is this any different from Forms I and II?

Niman- this isn't a form, it's a Jedi who's to damn lazy to practice.

Juyo/Vaapad- despite some flowery propaganda it's no different from Form I, II, or V.

That leaves three forms Offensive-based, Defensive-based, and whirling hampster wheel of Death based. My original question remains.

[YT300000]

Forms 1 and 2 are completely different. Just watch Episode II. Form 1 is Fisto, Form 2 is Dooku. While the Forms each emphasize offense or defense, their way of doing it is totally different in each. Also, Form 7 is nothing like the other forms. Its offense and defense at the same time, indistinguishable from each other.

[Darth Sephiroth]

Non can stand against form 7 Vaapad variation (Windu's style)

Except for Palpatine and Anakin

[Publius]

Non can stand against form 7 Vaapad variation (Windu's style)

Except for Palpatine and Anakin

Strictly speaking, Sidious did not withstand Windu's attack, as he quite literally was not standing at the end of their duel. There was recently a rather contentious dispute on this very subject; the current consensus is that if Sidious was exaggerating, he was very likely taking advantage of the fact that he was genuinely losing. Considering that he is 10 years Windu's senior and hasn't had occasion to handle a lightsaber for more than a few seconds in decades (his lightsaber had been hidden in a neuranium statue since he first arrived on Coruscant), it is not at all surprising that he might have had difficulty fighting a rather more experienced and fit swordsman of Windu's strength.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ought he not have another saber, perhaps sequestered in some off-world Sith base? His lightsaber-from-the-statue was likely for quick access with short notice. He certainly used a lightsaber since he had the statue moved to Coruscant when he was an ambassador. We know for certain he had one available to conduct Lord Maul's final Sith trial, and that it was likely with a spare he fought Master Yoda, as his lightsaber-from-the-statue was kicked out of a window to fall kilometers into the endless cityscape.

[Publius]

Ought he not have another saber, perhaps sequestered in some off-world Sith base? His lightsaber-from-the-statue was likely for quick access with short notice. He certainly used a lightsaber since he had the statue moved to Coruscant when he was an ambassador. We know for certain he had one available to conduct Lord Maul's final Sith trial, and that it was likely with a spare he fought Master Yoda, as his lightsaber-from-the-statue was kicked out of a window to fall kilometers into the endless cityscape.

Certainly he had access to other lightsabers (such as the training lightsaber he used in Episode I Journal: Darth Maul or the "easily concealed backup" with which he fought Yoda in Revenge of the Sith), but these were probably concealed in one of his two lairs on Coruscant (or else why bother to go through so elaborate a deception as storing his lightsaber in the neuranium statue in the first place?); so far the only times he has been seen in those lairs is to communicate with underlings or meet with one of his Apprentices. Since there is no knowledge indicating that he knew of the Doppelgänger technique from Dark Empire at that time (not to mention the tracks leading from one of his lairs, the LiMerge Power facility in The Works, to 500 Republica in Labyrinth of Evil) strongly suggest that he must have physically gone to the lairs, and as a public official he must of course carefully limit his "inexplicable" disappearances. He cannot have had much time to go to a lair to practice his swordsmanship (whereas Windu had actual, recent combat experience); indeed, the only other time in this era he is known to have handled a lightsaber (in Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, he was actually using Maul's weapon.

This is to say nothing of the fact that decades of reigning as Sith Master and at least 13 years as Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic must have taken their toll on his physical health (which has never been known to be particularly robust in the first place). He is known to have had a habit of working for days without sleep (which is not healthy for a human of his age), and there are also known rumors that he might take a leave of absence from office due to his poor health. Even if he were to have practiced every day with a lightsaber, he faces a severe handicap in his duel with Mace Windu. The fact that he was able to contend with Windu at all is indicative of extraordinary power on his part; the fact that mere hours later he fought Yoda to the point of exhaustion in an even more intensive battle is altogether remarkable (notice especially that he abandoned his lightsaber altogether during his fight with Yoda).

[General Brock]

Ought he not have another saber, perhaps sequestered in some off-world Sith base? His lightsaber-from-the-statue was likely for quick access with short notice. He certainly used a lightsaber since he had the statue moved to Coruscant when he was an ambassador. We know for certain he had one available to conduct Lord Maul's final Sith trial, and that it was likely with a spare he fought Master Yoda, as his lightsaber-from-the-statue was kicked out of a window to fall kilometers into the endless cityscape.

Errr, ah... No. He got it from ACME rentals. Their Legendary Sith extended package includes a coupon for replacement for failure or defect, no questions asked, delivered to your door free of charge within 24 standard hours anywhere in the Galactic Core.

[Samored]

Forms 1 and 2 are completely different. Just watch Episode II. Form 1 is Fisto, Form 2 is Dooku.

I never said there weren't different combat forms. I said that, based on their descriptions and the visual evidence, there were not SEVEN forms.

While the Forms each emphasize offense or defense, their way of doing it is totally different in each.

I call bullshit. You're telling me a Form 1 parry is somehow different from a Form V parry. That the mechanics of a saber stroke change based on the style one uses? That's like saying that a savate kick is different from a karate kick or that a Mike Tyson punch is different from a Buster Douglas punch because they had different boxing instructors.

Also, Form 7 is nothing like the other forms. Its offense and defense at the same time, indistinguishable from each other.

Bullshit again. No evidence to support this and it's a logical contradiction to boot.

Differences in weapon techniques arise from differences in the weapon itself. Thus kendo is different from the epee. With the lightsaber there is little, if any, variation in performance and no advantage between edge and point. There could be certain styles that emphasis edge or point but there'd be so little difference it would be hard for an observer to distinguish.

[FTeik]

This is to say nothing of the fact that decades of reigning as Sith Master and at least 13 years as Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic must have taken their toll on his physical health (which has never been known to be particularly robust in the first place). He is known to have had a habit of working for days without sleep (which is not healthy for a human of his age), and there are also known rumors that he might take a leave of absence from office due to his poor health. Even if he were to have practiced every day with a lightsaber, he faces a severe handicap in his duel with Mace Windu. The fact that he was able to contend with Windu at all is indicative of extraordinary power on his part; the fact that mere hours later he fought Yoda to the point of exhaustion in an even more intensive battle is altogether remarkable (notice especially that he abandoned his lightsaber altogether during his fight with Yoda).

The leave of absence because of his poor health might have just been an excuse to get opportunities to conduct his Sith-business undisturbed.

Wasn't Count Dooku using a force-doppelganger during the clone-wars? If so, from whom did the Count learn this ability, if not from Sidious?

May i ask, where the knowledge about Palpatine's supposed not-so-robust health comes from? Its the first time i hear about it.

[Pcm979]

IMO 'sabre styles have more to do with mindset than technique, with Soresu and Djem So being key examples, both of defensive styles that differ markedly in application E.G. Soresu is a hyper-defensive style utilising minimal movement and maximum body-coverage, while Djem So is an agressive defensive style which mainly consists of 'mule' moves and redirecting parries.

[Grasscutter]

I call bullshit. You're telling me a Form 1 parry is somehow different from a Form V parry. That the mechanics of a saber stroke change based on the style one uses? That's like saying that a savate kick is different from a karate kick or that a Mike Tyson punch is different from a Buster Douglas punch because they had different boxing instructors.

The techniques may be the same, but how you apply the techniques is different. Using your example, yes, Savate and Karate both have kicks as part of their technique set. But the philosophies on how to approach situations in a fight, combos, training regimens, etc. are VERY different.

Saying the offensive lightsaber forms are all essentially the same just because they're 75% offense related is like saying saying Karate and Tae Kwon Do are the same martial art because they're both hard, linear styles. Or using a different analogy that's like saying a Ford Mustang is the exact same car as a Mitsubishi Eclipse because they both use screws in their construction.

And just because it's the same weapon doesn't mean that everybody who picks it up is going to use it the exact same way. French foil fencing is different than Spanish foil fencing. They employ the same parries, lunges, ripostes, and so on, but there are subtle differences in how these techniques are applied in combat. Same goes for ANY melee weapon. There are different schools in Kendo, Iaido, etc.

It's true that what's shown on the screen may not be enough for us to tell the difference between the styles. But if we're going by the EU material then yes, there are 7 distinct styles taught by the Jedi Order in the Old Republic.

[Samored]

IMO 'sabre styles have more to do with mindset than technique, with Soresu and Djem So being key examples, both of defensive styles that differ markedly in application E.G. Soresu is a hyper-defensive style utilising minimal movement and maximum body-coverage, while Djem So is an agressive defensive style which mainly consists of 'mule' moves and redirecting parries.

I'll buy that. But are you saying there are seven (or more) distinct mindsets employed by lightsaber fighters? While that makes sense, it doesn't agree with the EU descriptions. Like I keep saying, there looks to be three main combat forms, or four, if you include someone who fights almost exclusively with Force power, which isn't mentioned in the EU. Is the EU wrong (I can deal with that) and there aren't seven forms or are the descriptions just too vague and inconsistent.

[Samored]

Saying the offensive lightsaber forms are all essentially the same just because they're 75% offense related is like saying saying Karate and Tae Kwon Do are the same martial art because they're both hard, linear styles. Or using a different analogy that's like saying a Ford Mustang is the exact same car as a Mitsubishi Eclipse because they both use screws in their construction.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it a duck. Can you look at a kick and say that's a karate kick verses that's a Tae Kwon Do kick? Does one hurt more than the other? Your analogy is flawed. If you have two vehicles with the same dimensions, wheel-base, horsepower, fuel economy, and seating; the difference being one has floor matts, leather upholstry, and comes in purple. Are they not the same car, just with different options.

And just because it's the same weapon doesn't mean that everybody who picks it up is going to use it the exact same way. French foil fencing is different than Spanish foil fencing. They employ the same parries, lunges, ripostes, and so on, but there are subtle differences in how these techniques are applied in combat. Same goes for ANY melee weapon. There are different schools in Kendo, Iaido, etc.

Yep, and the different schools of Kendo don't try to pass themselves off as an entirely separate and distinct art form do they?

It's true that what's shown on the screen may not be enough for us to tell the difference between the styles. But if we're going by the EU material then yes, there are 7 distinct styles taught by the Jedi Order in the Old Republic

And what are the differences? What makes Form V different from Form VII? or Form I

[Pcm979]

Well, lesse... This is how I figure it.

Form 1 is the basic anti-blaster crowd-control form, taught to the youngsters.

Form 6 is the Lightsabre version of Fundamental Science in highschool; It gives you the basics and you can specialise with one of the other forms, or leave it there, just as long as you tick the box.

Now come the specialisations.

Lightsabre-to-lightsabre forms:
Form 2 and Form 7 (Juyo, Not Vaapaad, which is Windu's home-baked variety)
Both of these styles are specifically built for 'Sabre to 'Sabre battles, with Form 2 emphasising quick, decisive cuts and parries to control the fight, which is why Obi-Wan and Anakin's mid-fight change of styles in Ep3 but Dooku on the back foot.
Form 7, on the other hand, is designed to confuse the opponent so he doesn't know what you'll do next and hopefully draw him into making a mistake (ref. Mace leaving himself open for that instant during the Sidious fight).

Defensive forms: Forms 3 and 5, outlined above.

Form 4 (Ataru, in a section all by itself since this isn't a meticulously designed list)
Practitioners of Ataru use their Force-assissted acrobatics to always stay on the move and keep the initiative. Their advantage is lost if they are stuck in a corner with little room to manouver, ala Qui-Gon on the edge of a patented bottomless pit. (Note that Yoda's Monkey On Crack version of Ataru is a form specifically designed to overcome his height problem, and not what the 'average' Ataru practitioner acts like).

[Grasscutter]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it a duck. Can you look at a kick and say that's a karate kick verses that's a Tae Kwon Do kick? Does one hurt more than the other? Your analogy is flawed. If you have two vehicles with the same dimensions, wheel-base, horsepower, fuel economy, and seating; the difference being one has floor matts, leather upholstry, and comes in purple. Are they not the same car, just with different options.

I retract my car analogy, but my point about Karate and Tae Kwon Do remains the same. It's true you're not going to be able to tell the difference by looking, but are you saying that Karate and Tae Kwon Do are the exact same thing because they're both hard, linear martial arts and have overlapping techniques?

Yep, and the different schools of Kendo don't try to pass themselves off as an entirely separate and distinct art form do they?

No, but they do distinguish themselves from other schools within the overarching field of Kendo. When I wrote this I was approaching it from the standpoint that the different forms were like different schools, not entirely different arts.

If we're looking at it like that, I still think you can argue that there are 7 distinct arts even if they all use Lightsabers. Kendo and Iaido both use katanas, but they're considered seperate martial arts. Or going back to Karate and Tae Kwon Do, they both use fists as weapons but they're considered seperate martial arts.

And what are the differences? What makes Form V different from Form VII? or Form I

All the information I have is from the Wikipedia entry posted earlier in the thread.

[Publius]

The leave of absence because of his poor health might have just been an excuse to get opportunities to conduct his Sith-business undisturbed.

Sick leave was not something that Palpatine himself proposed, but rather a rumor circulating around him in "Palpatine Health Rumors Denied" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 52), which Sate Pestage explicitly denied. This is in addition to Jedi Trial, in which Shayla Paige-Tarkin, a close supporter of Palpatine's government, believes that "the cares of public service in this crisis were wearing the poor man down." Palpatine is said to be "showing signs of exhaustion" during a holovized speech in "Palpatine to Separatists: Let's Talk" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 48), and Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary mentions that he sometimes works for days without sleep (as mentioned earlier). Even granting that he may have exaggerated his state of health (as mentioned by Star Wars: The Visual Dictionary), Palpatine was an aged man actively undertaking the work of two men each administering a war; he was not as young, experienced, or robust a duelist as Mace Windu.

By saying that his health has never been known to be "particularly robust in the first place," it is intended that it be understood that there has never been reason to believe his physical condition is remarkably good (hence the negative format and the adverb "particularly"). There are signs that his health is at least poor enough to be noticeable by the public at large, and ill health would provide a convenient excuse for his later reclusiveness as Galactic Emperor.

Wasn't Count Dooku using a force-doppelganger during the clone-wars? If so, from whom did the Count learn this ability, if not from Sidious?

The claim that it was a Doppelgänger of the Count of Serenno that Anakin Skywalker killed in The New Droid Army was found in the Star Wars Fact Files, a resource published only in the United Kingdom; the author of the claim, Abel G. Peña, has admitted that it was perhaps not the most advisable forum for introducing such an idea. This claim is contradicted by Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, in which Serenno reflects that Skywalker killed a clone; the clone cannot be the same thing as a Doppelgänger, because Serenno had learned that Skywalker killed the clone after the fact, whereas he would have known immediately had Skywalker killed his Doppelänger.

At any rate, this now strays from the point.

[Eleas]

The Forms have been discussed an untold number of times - in particular I recall this thread.

My opinion is still that the Forms were implemented in a ridiculous fashion that has zero similarity to what we see onscreen. Only if we remove the importance of Forms from the actual physical execution of the Jedi or Sith's style and handwave something about intent, emotional states or Force techniques, does it even begin to make sense.

I think the most likely conclusion is that they are some form of religiously influenced military program, and that Form VI is the easy course. Either that, or they are simply schools of thought, mini-religions or quasi-schools of philosophy within the Jedi Temple.

[Cykeisme]

Hang on a second, Samored... are you arguing that lightsaber forms must be identical because they use slashes and parries, and then continuing to back this up by saying Taekwondo and Karate are the same thing because they use punches and kicks?

[FTeik]

The leave of absence because of his poor health might have just been an excuse to get opportunities to conduct his Sith-business undisturbed.

Sick leave was not something that Palpatine himself proposed, but rather a rumor circulating around him in "Palpatine Health Rumors Denied" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 52), which Sate Pestage explicitly denied. This is in addition to Jedi Trial, in which Shayla Paige-Tarkin, a close supporter of Palpatine's government, believes that "the cares of public service in this crisis were wearing the poor man down." Palpatine is said to be "showing signs of exhaustion" during a holovized speech in "Palpatine to Separatists: Let's Talk" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 48), and Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary mentions that he sometimes works for days without sleep (as mentioned earlier). Even granting that he may have exaggerated his state of health (as mentioned by Star Wars: The Visual Dictionary), Palpatine was an aged man actively undertaking the work of two men each administering a war; he was not as young, experienced, or robust a duelist as Mace Windu.

By saying that his health has never been known to be "particularly robust in the first place," it is intended that it be understood that there has never been reason to believe his physical condition is remarkably good (hence the negative format and the adverb "particularly"). There are signs that his health is at least poor enough to be noticeable by the public at large, and ill health would provide a convenient excuse for his later reclusiveness as Galactic Emperor.

Alright, but IF the Palpatine-face is just a mask for Darth Sidious - with that i mean, that he wasn't "deformed" during his fight with Windu by his own lightning - how do we know, that appearing ill isn't an act, too.

After all Palpatine looks a lot younger in ROTS, than he does in AOTC. Or is that just me?

[Perseid]

And just because it's the same weapon doesn't mean that everybody who picks it up is going to use it the exact same way. French foil fencing is different than Spanish foil fencing. They employ the same parries, lunges, ripostes, and so on, but there are subtle differences in how these techniques are applied in combat. Same goes for ANY melee weapon. There are different schools in Kendo, Iaido, etc.

Yep, and the different schools of Kendo don't try to pass themselves off as an entirely separate and distinct art form do they?

Whilst I have never studied Kendo, I have studied Shotokan Karate at 2 different schools, both of them in the same area and both of them answering to the same central body. Now one of the schools focused on the general techniques, mastery of all the relavent parts to get you through the gradings, whilst the other school covered all of that as well as going into advanced combat, and had an emphasis on kicking techniques.

Also what Grasscutter is trying to get across is that it's not just techniques its the way the technique is executed and the whole belief, emotional, and tactical way in which the technique is used.

Classic example of two Jedi techniques seen side by side is Obi-Wan and Anakin. Obi-Wan's technique is more defensive, he is constantly blocking and parrying looking for an opening (except in the final duel against Anakin where he goes back to his Ataru roots). Whereas Anakins style is heavy blows, more along the lines of fighting with a longsword than a foil, with the defensive side of the style following the same paths as his blows. This style (form 5) is kinda like the 32 point sword technique that master swordsmen practice (Viggo Mortensen aka Arragorn learnt the basics of this style the 8 point for LotR).

[Eleas]

Also what Grasscutter is trying to get across is that it's not just techniques its the way the technique is executed and the whole belief, emotional, and tactical way in which the technique is used.

The theory of the SW forms being in any way, shape or form equivalent to real-world forms in operation is invalidated by simple observation of the movies. This fact has not been refuted, and likely will not be, simply because there is no valid refutal to be made.

The two are simply different concepts, where the SW forms seem to be almost completely unrelated to their physical interpretation.