Qui-Gon Jinn and the Living Force

Seeing Red · Post by **Seeing Red** » 2005-06-30 01:41am

Why doesn't Qui-Gon Jinn appear alongside Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker at the end of RotJ when the latter three appear to Luke? Didn't Yoda tell us at the end of RotS that Qui-Gon also knows how to do this?

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2005-06-30 01:45am

Because by the time of ROTJ, Qui-Gon's spirit, who had already died all the WAY back in TPM, was already 30 odd years in advance of the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. His spiritual presence had already long departed the physical world where Luke could see him.

Instant Sunrise · Post by **Instant Sunrise** » 2005-06-30 01:45am

George doesn't want another pitchfork mob on Skywalker Ranch.

Or, I suppose you could say that only the ghost's that influenced Luke were there, and Qui-Gon didn't really train Luke.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-06-30 01:48am

Also there would be little reason for Qui-Gon to show himself to Luke, since the two of them never met to begin with.

Maybe Qui-Gon was waiting at the next tree with the ethereal speeder so he, Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan could cut out of the Ewok party and head off to a spiritual kegger.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2005-06-30 02:09am

"Go we must, to a cantina on north street. Spare the horses Qui-gon, you must not ."

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-06-30 03:34am

Order 66 wrote:Because by the time of ROTJ, Qui-Gon's spirit, who had already died all the WAY back in TPM, was already 30 odd years in advance of the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. His spiritual presence had already long departed the physical world where Luke could see him.

Did you just make that up?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-30 03:46am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Order 66 wrote:Because by the time of ROTJ, Qui-Gon's spirit, who had already died all the WAY back in TPM, was already 30 odd years in advance of the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. His spiritual presence had already long departed the physical world where Luke could see him.
Did you just make that up?

Its a bit of a jump in reasoning, but there is some evidence that force ghost eventually are unable to communicate with the living world. Obi-Wan says something to that effect on of the post-ROTJ EU books I believe.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-30 03:58am

Noble Ire wrote: Obi-Wan says something to that effect on of the post-ROTJ EU books I believe.

In dark force rising (First thrawn book) to be precise.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-06-30 04:08am

Doesn't seem to jive with the implication that they would achieve more as they had time to study/mediate/whatever as immortal force ghosts in the novel.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-06-30 03:33pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Noble Ire wrote: Obi-Wan says something to that effect on of the post-ROTJ EU books I believe.
In dark force rising (First thrawn book) to be precise.

Nitpick: It was Heir to the Empire

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-30 04:18pm

He gave up his place so that Anakin, who has no reason whatsoever for being there, could appear.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-06-30 04:35pm

Young Anakin, no less. Grr...

But yeah, Qui-gon never interacted with Luke in anyway, so if he had appeared, Luke would've been confused. "Who the fuck are you?"

spongyblue · Post by **spongyblue** » 2005-06-30 04:44pm

By the way, how did Annikan be able to do the ghost trick? I was under the impression from ROTS that the ghost deal was pioneered by Qui-Gon and he was commnicating the ability after he kicked the bucket to Yoda and Obi-Wan. SO how did Annikan pick it up? Is he just uber in his mad skillz with the force?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-30 04:55pm

Noble Ire wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Order 66 wrote:Because by the time of ROTJ, Qui-Gon's spirit, who had already died all the WAY back in TPM, was already 30 odd years in advance of the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. His spiritual presence had already long departed the physical world where Luke could see him.
Did you just make that up?
Its a bit of a jump in reasoning, but there is some evidence that force ghost eventually are unable to communicate with the living world. Obi-Wan says something to that effect on of the post-ROTJ EU books I believe.

Yeah but isn't that somewhat contradicted by ROTS? According to Yoda it is a means of becoming immortal and expanding their powers.

That aspect of the Thrawn Trilogy always bugged me. It seemed a bit too much of a copout.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-30 04:57pm

spongyblue wrote:By the way, how did Annikan be able to do the ghost trick? I was under the impression from ROTS that the ghost deal was pioneered by Qui-Gon and he was commnicating the ability after he kicked the bucket to Yoda and Obi-Wan. SO how did Annikan pick it up? Is he just uber in his mad skillz with the force?

My guess in some ways it may have something to do with selfless acts. Obi Wan did one when Vader killed him, and Anakin did one too in saving Luke. Then I could be just talking out of my ass.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-06-30 05:00pm

Anakin's ghost didn't last very long at all; It showed up to grin at Luke and apologised to Leia during A Truce at Bakura, putting him more in the role of a traditional ghost (Sticking around to do something important) than a fully pre-paid Force Ghost like Obi (Who stuck around until roughly 10 years after Endor, IIRC).

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-30 05:06pm

Pcm979 wrote:Anakin's ghost didn't last very long at all; It showed up to grin at Luke and apologised to Leia during A Truce at Bakura, putting him more in the role of a traditional ghost (Sticking around to do something important) than a fully pre-paid Force Ghost like Obi (Who stuck around until roughly 10 years after Endor, IIRC).

Then again, much of the Force ghosh antics in EU are contradicted by ROTS. It's a gateway to Immortality now. Remember some EU even assumed that all Jedi did in fact become Force Ghosts. (or that many do) IIRC, in Cortship of Princess Leia Luke visits the Dwelling of a Jedi who went into hiding and was killed by Vader. It states that There was no body left as it disappeared.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-30 05:59pm

Then again, much of the Force ghosh antics in EU are contradicted by ROTS.

Not really. Since we dont know what happens to other Jedi after they die (or really not even the ghosty ones) it is possible that the others just cease to exist, or have their conciousness absorbed into the force. Even though the ghosty Jedi eventually unable to contact the living, its possible that they still retain their minds, riding the wave of the force for happy eternity. Or, Yoda might have just been wrong.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-06-30 06:25pm

Noble Ire wrote:
Then again, much of the Force ghosh antics in EU are contradicted by ROTS.
Not really. Since we dont know what happens to other Jedi after they die (or really not even the ghosty ones) it is possible that the others just cease to exist, or have their conciousness absorbed into the force. Even though the ghosty Jedi eventually unable to contact the living, its possible that they still retain their minds, riding the wave of the force for happy eternity. Or, Yoda might have just been wrong.

I dunno. Personally I buy the ROTS explanation over the EU since I think the EU poorly handled the Force Ghost backstory. I mean it was stated to be a means of Immortality. From what we know most of the Jedi Merge with the Force as they die, Yoda alludes to that in ROTS, IIRC. I'm not too sure, But I really don't think the EU has a proper explanation for it anymore.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-30 06:27pm

The rpg also has Sith ghost, however they dont lose their connection to the material plane like the jedi do.
It's probably very low canon after the Rots novelization though.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-06-30 06:38pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:The rpg also has Sith ghost, however they dont lose their connection to the material plane like the jedi do.
It's probably very low canon after the Rots novelization though.

There is also Exan Kun, a Sith ghost who could very much affect the material plane.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-30 06:40pm

Lord Pounder wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote:The rpg also has Sith ghost, however they dont lose their connection to the material plane like the jedi do.
It's probably very low canon after the Rots novelization though.
There is also Exan Kun, a Sith ghost who could very much affect the material plane.

I'm not sure if hese a true ghost rather than his out of body disembodied spirit caused by the alchemy and mass Massasi sacrifice.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-06-30 07:15pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Then again, much of the Force ghosh antics in EU are contradicted by ROTS. It's a gateway to Immortality now. Remember some EU even assumed that all Jedi did in fact become Force Ghosts. (or that many do) IIRC, in Cortship of Princess Leia Luke visits the Dwelling of a Jedi who went into hiding and was killed by Vader. It states that There was no body left as it disappeared.

Well, maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan put *him* in touch with Qui-Gon for some lessons too. A bit of a stretch, I know, but it's better than erasing the whole thing from canon.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-30 07:46pm

They could have put him in touch with Qui-Gon, yeah... or they could simply have taught him themselves, after he died.

As for the whole Force spirit issue, I think I'd take events that happen in RotS over the misconceptions that some EU authors had years ago, before any of this was revealed. Well, to each his own.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-06-30 07:57pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote:The rpg also has Sith ghost, however they dont lose their connection to the material plane like the jedi do.
It's probably very low canon after the Rots novelization though.
There is also Exan Kun, a Sith ghost who could very much affect the material plane.
I'm not sure if hese a true ghost rather than his out of body disembodied spirit caused by the alchemy and mass Massasi sacrifice.

Well, then there's always Ajunta Pall from KOTOR. He's a ghost, and yet attacks your main character if you screw up. Not really high canon, but two important things are setup with it: he's a Force ghost, and appears at his grave sometime after his death (over 10 years prior, IIRC, but I'm not sure); and he can affect the material plane.