left behind series says evolution the root of all evil

[Imperial Overlord]

It never even occurs to them that evolution supporters honestly don't believe in God at all; they simply can't comprehend it.

Emphasis mine.
Pardon me but what the fuck? There are definitely people who aren't creationists but still think there's some kind of higher power. You're talking to one of them.

He's refering to rabid fundies.

[Guardsman Bass]

It never even occurs to them that evolution supporters honestly don't believe in God at all; they simply can't comprehend it.

Emphasis mine.
Pardon me but what the fuck? There are definitely people who aren't creationists but still think there's some kind of higher power. You're talking to one of them.

Cut the nit-picking bullshit outrage; he was referring to the radicals.

As for the OT, I have read the entire series, and if you believe the evolution part is unimaginable, try to imagine what kind of world would continue to obey the Anti-Christ even after ALL THE OCEANS get transformed into blood, exactly as the Rabbi Tsion Ben-Judah predicts in the bible and posts on the Internet.

[Junghalli]

As for the OT, I have read the entire series, and if you believe the evolution part is unimaginable, try to imagine what kind of world would continue to obey the Anti-Christ even after ALL THE OCEANS get transformed into blood, exactly as the Rabbi Tsion Ben-Judah predicts in the bible and posts on the Internet.

Obviously one full of people so stupid they deserve exactly what they get.

[Perinquus]

It makes no sense, but it does reveal something about their mindset. They simply can't wrap their heads around the idea of people who make decisions with no concern whatsoever for their religious beliefs. As far as they're concerned, the whole idea of evolution was invented because mankind wanted to exalt himself to become the equal of God. It never even occurs to them that evolution supporters honestly don't believe in God at all; they simply can't comprehend it.

I can vouch for this as well. I have argued with fundies both on the web, and it is impossible to convince some of them that you genuinely have no belief in God. As far as they're concerned, you hate God, or you are rebelling against God, or whatever. They simply won't believe you aren't angry at or hate God, and you simply don't believe there is such a being.

[Enforcer Talen]

My unhappiness with the midpioint of the series was how stupid the antichrist got.

Any decent spindoctor could say, "yaknow, ben judah is right. god exists. but hes a sociopath. Instead, he spends the entire series saying "its not happening, its not happening!"

Simply bizarre.[/i]

[Enforcer Talen]

It makes no sense, but it does reveal something about their mindset. They simply can't wrap their heads around the idea of people who make decisions with no concern whatsoever for their religious beliefs. As far as they're concerned, the whole idea of evolution was invented because mankind wanted to exalt himself to become the equal of God. It never even occurs to them that evolution supporters honestly don't believe in God at all; they simply can't comprehend it.

I can vouch for this as well. I have argued with fundies both on the web, and it is impossible to convince some of them that you genuinely have no belief in God. As far as they're concerned, you hate God, or you are rebelling against God, or whatever. They simply won't believe you aren't angry at or hate God, and you simply don't believe there is such a being.

Tell you true, for about 4 months when I was deconverting, I believed god existed but was evil, cuz I couldnt imagine the bible being wrong.

It took some effort to wrap my mind around it.

[Zero]

How were you able to deconvert?

[Enforcer Talen]

Losing a debate to wong, basically.

Look in the archives for topics on abortion and porn. I wrote in them, got mauled, and thot about things for a while.

[Guardsman Bass]

As for the OT, I have read the entire series, and if you believe the evolution part is unimaginable, try to imagine what kind of world would continue to obey the Anti-Christ even after ALL THE OCEANS get transformed into blood, exactly as the Rabbi Tsion Ben-Judah predicts in the bible and posts on the Internet.

Obviously one full of people so stupid they deserve exactly what they get.

They do. I remember one of (possessed) Carpathia's more intelligent lines was to his prophet, Fortunato:

Carpathia: "Do you know the marine biologists are saying everything is dead? Do you honestly think that if the blood is turned back, all the little fishies will suddenly flop back to life again?"

Fortunato: *nervous nodding in the affirmative*

If Fortunato is any example of the Anti-Christ people, they were screwed from the beginning (of course, they were screwed as soon as they took the Mark, whether they wanted to or not, since LaHaye's version of the Apocalypse does not include forgiveness and recognition of one's wrongs).

[Lord of the Abyss]

As for the OT, I have read the entire series, and if you believe the evolution part is unimaginable, try to imagine what kind of world would continue to obey the Anti-Christ even after ALL THE OCEANS get transformed into blood, exactly as the Rabbi Tsion Ben-Judah predicts in the bible and posts on the Internet.

It's just like the Crucifixion. You have this guy who works miracles all the time, with provable divine connections, and people are going to be dumb enough to kill him and piss off a God. The Romans would have converted on the spot, in hopes of getting some of the divine goodies.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wow, I read left behind, and during Satan's trial I totally don't remember that part. Is there any chance someone with the book could post a chapter and/or page #? I'm going to my parents' house this weekend, and my dad has the books.

But yeah, that's messed up to say Darwin was led by Satan.

Most of the Satan believing evolution stuff is brought out in Chapter 5, pg 79 and on in the last book, Glorious Appearing, again.

Sorry about the double post, but I didn't read your question very well and thought you said you don't remember a trial.

Thanks. I'll check that again this weekend.

[Junghalli]

If Fortunato is any example of the Anti-Christ people, they were screwed from the beginning (of course, they were screwed as soon as they took the Mark, whether they wanted to or not, since LaHaye's version of the Apocalypse does not include forgiveness and recognition of one's wrongs).

Emphasis mine. I always thought one of the main points of Christianity was the belief in repentence. Oh well, I guess the fundie version... they believe God sends people to hell just for not believing in him, what do you expect?
In-universe, supposedly the antichrist would outwardly seem like Ghandi, being a great peacemaker and seemingly very benevolent etc. and that's how he'd be able to fool so many people. After all, I suppose the battle of Armageddon wouldn't be much of a contest if he only got the truly evil ones fighting for him, seeing as they're IMO a very small minority of humanity so he'd have a vast, vast numbers disadvantage to the followers of good.
Of course then again if we go by the fundie selection process with Jesus only getting the hardest of the hard core fundies and everybody else going to the Antichrist... it would either require Trektastic Deus ex Machina or UFP-style incompetence on the part of the forces of evil for them to possibly loose.

Losing a debate to wong, basically.
Look in the archives for topics on abortion and porn. I wrote in them, got mauled, and thot about things for a while.

Please don't take this the wrong way but you changed your religion because you lost a debate on the internet?

[Enforcer Talen]

When Im wrong, Im wrong -shrugs-

My belief was that god was an all around nice guy. When it was shown he wasnt (mark 7:27), I tried to rework it as the bible was true, but god was evil. It had me in a suicidal depression for about 4 months, and then I decided atheism was the only sensible alternative.

happy?

[Zero]

Oddly enough, I'm an atheist and actually disagree with certain things that many here agree with. I didn't know I was against abortion until some bitch that I was friends with had three. It just gave me a horrible sense of things, and I knew that I could never suggest such a thing to a person. Effectively, it's not really different from killing a newborn, just more legal. This is, of course, just what I think. I'd not change the law to make it illegal, but I sure as hell wouldn't kill my unborn son to make shit easier for myself.

[Enforcer Talen]

Care to start a new topic on it? I got owned last time I said much the same thing.

[Darth Raptor]

You're not alone in owing your deconversion to Wong, Talen. I had a lot of spare time in highschool- most of which was spent researching the Creationism/Evolution controversy- a pet obsession of mine at the time. I stumbled across the Creationism vs. Science page (now CreationTheory.org) and read it in its entirety. I'd never seen Creationism so thoroughly trounced before. I wish I could say my research was more broad and all-encompassing, but in truth I practically lost all vestiges of my (admittedly already shakey) faith at that point.

[Enforcer Talen]

Ive gotten a lot more militant since then, I will say. At first I was all live and let live, but Ive come to realize; as a rule, christians dont.

[Darth Wong]

Effectively, it's not really different from killing a newborn, just more legal.

Perhaps if you added "in my completely subjective opinion, with no real argument to back up this claim other than the implicit assumption that future potentials are equivalent to present capabilities," before this statement, it would be correct. In the meantime, I suggest you try searching the forum before trying to rekindle a debate that's been beaten to death, especially in a thread where it's off-topic.

[Darth Wong]

Please don't take this the wrong way but you changed your religion because you lost a debate on the internet?

Why is that a bad thing? If you lose a debate, there are only two possible explanations:

1. Your opponent presented better or more convincing arguments than you did, presumably due to superior skill on his part, even though you still hold the stronger position.
2. You are actually holding the weaker position.

If you do some reflection and determine that this was a case of #2, then it would be perfectly logical to change your opinion after losing a debate on the Internet.

[Guardsman Bass]

Back to what I was saying on the OT, in the 7th or 8th book (in which New Babylon gets surrounded by darkness, and the Tribulation Force rescues the computer guy they have in the HQ who has both the Mark (it was forced on him involuntarily) and the Mark of God), there actually is an incident which, if it weren't buried by the rest of the series, could make you think about how LaHaye's scheme lacks forgiveness and change. They come across an agonized woman with the Mark who is genuinely sorry about taking, but (naturally), being the good Believers they are, they leave her, since she is worse than dead to them.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Please don't take this the wrong way but you changed your religion because you lost a debate on the internet?

Why is that a bad thing? If you lose a debate, there are only two possible explanations:

1. Your opponent presented better or more convincing arguments than you did, presumably due to superior skill on his part, even though you still hold the stronger position.
2. You are actually holding the weaker position.

If you do some reflection and determine that this was a case of #2, then it would be perfectly logical to change your opinion after losing a debate on the Internet.

Agreed. I mean, it is perfectly possible to lose a face-to-face debate while holding the stronger position, just because one's opponent can utilize all manner of oratory and rhetorical tactics to put one on the defensive without ever actually debunking the core tenents of one's position. It's possible to fall victim to similar sophistry in an environment where fast responses are required, such as in a chatroom.

But in an environment like a BBS, or e-mail, it's much more difficult to lose an argument if one holds the strong position, since one has time to think about, and prepare for, their responses. Well, at least in a forum like this one, where facts and logic are of a higher priority.

[Lord Zentei]

When Im wrong, Im wrong -shrugs-

My belief was that god was an all around nice guy. When it was shown he wasnt (mark 7:27), I tried to rework it as the bible was true, but god was evil. It had me in a suicidal depression for about 4 months, and then I decided atheism was the only sensible alternative.

happy?

I am happy, anyway. This shows that debate really can make a difference in some cases and we're not wasting our time trying to deconverty people.

[Junghalli]

When Im wrong, Im wrong -shrugs-
My belief was that god was an all around nice guy. When it was shown he wasnt (mark 7:27), I tried to rework it as the bible was true, but god was evil. It had me in a suicidal depression for about 4 months, and then I decided atheism was the only sensible alternative.

I've read over DW's creationism page and all his arguments about how God really existed He'd be evil, and they never convinced me much. The Bible is at best the word of God interpreted by men and distorted through Heaven alone knows how many generations of oral retelling. It would be ludicrous to think the Bible is literally true, because what we have today is the end result of a long game of Telephone at best. Besides, just as my personal totally subjective opinion, the idea that human beings could be more moral than God if He did exist turned me off, it struck me as tremendously arrogant. But if it convinced you that's fine with me.

Why is that a bad thing? If you lose a debate, there are only two possible explanations:<snip>

It's not, it's just that loosing a debate with someone over a BBS that you frequent in your spare time strikes me as an incredibly feeble lever to overturn something as basic and deep-seated as a person's religion.

They come across an agonized woman with the Mark who is genuinely sorry about taking, but (naturally), being the good Believers they are, they leave her, since she is worse than dead to them.

Disgusting. One of the things I most like about Christianity is the idea that everyone can repent, no human being is so twisted and evil as to be beyond being saved. LaHaye disagrees apparently.

[NapoleonGH]

"t struck me as tremendously arrogant."

I think its tremendously arrogant of some other being to think it could be more moral than us, just because it is more powerful.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Why is that a bad thing? If you lose a debate, there are only two possible explanations:<snip>

It's not, it's just that loosing a debate with someone over a BBS that you frequent in your spare time strikes me as an incredibly feeble lever to overturn something as basic and deep-seated as a person's religion.

I would take it more as evidence that the person being convinced hasn't been so completely indoctrinated into their faith that they've become incapable of considering logical arguments and factual evidence showing that their faith is irrational. A person's religion is only "basic and deep-seated" because religious officials, clergy, and well-meaning parents go to great lengths to impress religion upon people when they are children, while they're still establishing the framework with which they approach the world. There's not any quality about religion that would really appeal to a rational person who's never been introduced to it, except perhaps, the actual basic and deep-seated human need for socialization and social identity.