[Predator] Racism on SD.net forums

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2005-07-03 04:05pm

I'd have to say I'm also guilty of racism when it comes to choosing a mate. I just find very few black women attractive, and usually those that do are a black-white mix. I kind of feel bad about it, but what can you do?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-03 05:40pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Xero Cool Down wrote:Errr well just my two cents but I've never seen any racism here that I remember other than that from trolls. We are such a diverse group that those who are not tolerate of others either are not interest in the place or they are driven off.
He isnt asking if there is racism, he is asking if any member's have minor feeling's of discrimination.

Word to the illiterate: you are not supposed to use apostrophes when pluralizing.

Post by **Dalton** » 2005-07-03 06:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
the .303 bookworm wrote:He isnt asking if there is racism, he is asking if any member's have minor feeling's of discrimination.
Word to the illiterate: you are not supposed to use apostrophes when pluralizing.

Cut him some slack, he's ESL.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-07-03 07:03pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: I think the Asian countries are socially backward. Does this make me a racist who dislikes Asians? With a surname like "Wong"?
While I have seen no evidence of you being racist, I would like to point out that just because you have an Asian heritage that does not make it impossible for you to be racist against Asians.

Even though I agree with you, I would point out that a large fraction of prominent sociologists disagree with your point. For example, Dr. Beverly Tatum, the current president of Spellman College, argues that it is actually impossible for a member of a minority group to be a racist, regardless of how egregiously they behave in this regard.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-07-03 07:11pm

Even though I agree with you, I would point out that a large fraction of prominent sociologists disagree with your point. For example, Dr. Beverly Tatum, the current president of Spellman College, argues that it is actually impossible for a member of a minority group to be a racist, regardless of how egregiously they behave in this regard.

By that logic, aren't the white minority who practiced apartheid in South Africa off the hook ?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-07-03 07:21pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Even though I agree with you, I would point out that a large fraction of prominent sociologists disagree with your point. For example, Dr. Beverly Tatum, the current president of Spellman College, argues that it is actually impossible for a member of a minority group to be a racist, regardless of how egregiously they behave in this regard.
By that logic, aren't the white minority who practiced apartheid in South Africa off the hook ?

Actually, she feels that minorities are incapable of being racist because she argues that they have no power and therefore no ability to be racist--it doesn't have to do with their relative lack of numbers, but with their inability to assume a position of power over another one. That actually does allow her reasoning to be applied to the Apartheid South African government, but I still see it as being patently ridiculous. Even though blacks, latinos, and many other racial and ethnic minorities in the US do not enjoy the same amount of power as whites, it is IMO patently absurd to argue that they have NO power over one another (which her argument is contingent upon).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-03 07:23pm

Is it really necessary to change the subject of this thread into a rant about that particular crackpot sociologist?

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2005-07-03 07:30pm

Meriam websters definition of racism

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Personally I think racism is largely about intent, and I think the dictionary definition here seems to go along with that fairly well. For instance the phrase "Chinky" is a common word in the UK used to refer to a Chinese takeaway or restaurant. SOME might interpret that as a racist word, but most people using it use it innocently with absolutely no ill will toward the Chinese race. I would say they are NOT racist in doing so.

Obviously one is capable of being subconsciously discriminatory or prejudiced, and one must take that into account. But in my mind if one does not INTEND to be racist in making a statement, they generally should not be considered so (except where a clear preudice is displayed such as an idiotic statement like "I'm not racist, but I think all blacks should go back to Africa").

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-03 07:41pm

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:Meriam websters definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
Personally I think racism is largely about intent, and I think the dictionary definition here seems to go along with that fairly well. For instance the phrase "Chinky" is a common word in the UK used to refer to a Chinese takeaway or restaurant. SOME might interpret that as a racist word, but most people using it use it innocently with absolutely no ill will toward the Chinese race. I would say they are NOT racist in doing so.

If you ever come here and call me a "chinky", we are going to have problems.

Obviously one is capable of being subconsciously discriminatory or prejudiced, and one must take that into account. But in my mind if one does not INTEND to be racist in making a statement, they generally should not be considered so (except where a clear preudice is displayed such as an idiotic statement like "I'm not racist, but I think all blacks should go back to Africa").

"Racial discrimination" is one of the definitions, and that defines action, not hidden (and unobservable) intent.

Jaepheth · Post by **Jaepheth** » 2005-07-03 07:41pm

Sorry for the slightly tangent post, but on a hunch I googled up a pic of Ms. Tatum...

Anyone else see the relation?

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2005-07-03 07:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:If you ever come here and call me a "chinky", we are going to have problems.

That's the thing, I know how many Chinese fellows would take that. That knowledge effects intent, I think. So I WOULD be racist using that term (though if I was calling you a "chinky" I'd be calling you a chinese restaurant, which would just be plain bizare).

"Racial discrimination" is one of the definitions, and that defines action, not hidden (and unobservable) intent.

I'm talking about intent of action.

Sometimes I think a word of phrase CAN be ambiguous with regards the term "racism", because sometimes I think the intent is by far the most important thing to discover in many cases. Technically the term "Limey" could be regarded as racist, if a chap said it to insult an English chap like myself, but most of the time I don't think they do because they don't intend it that way. I'm certainly not going to take offense if none is genuinely offered to me.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-03 08:07pm

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:I'm talking about intent of action.

You're missing the point. Discrimination is an action. If you treat black people differently than you treat white people, then you are discriminating. There is no point trying to figure out what the "intent" is if you can observe someone who treats black people and white people differently as a matter of course.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-07-03 09:18pm

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:Personally I think racism is largely about intent, and I think the dictionary definition here seems to go along with that fairly well. For instance the phrase "Chinky" is a common word in the UK used to refer to a Chinese takeaway or restaurant. SOME might interpret that as a racist word, but most people using it use it innocently with absolutely no ill will toward the Chinese race. I would say they are NOT racist in doing so.

Obviously one is capable of being subconsciously discriminatory or prejudiced, and one must take that into account. But in my mind if one does not INTEND to be racist in making a statement, they generally should not be considered so (except where a clear preudice is displayed such as an idiotic statement like "I'm not racist, but I think all blacks should go back to Africa").

Where do you draw the line, then? Since the intentions of a person cannot be measured in any way, and since the perception of another's intentions are not consistent between observers, it is ridiculous to define racism by the intentions of the person involved. It is particularly difficult since outright racial profiling and similar behavior can be passed off innocently in virtually all cases. "I wasn't tailing that guy just because he was Latino. I was concerned he was an illegal alien because he... um... spoke Spanish."

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-07-03 09:44pm

Where do you draw the line, then? Since the intentions of a person cannot be measured in any way, and since the perception of another's intentions are not consistent between observers, it is ridiculous to define racism by the intentions of the person involved. It is particularly difficult since outright racial profiling and similar behavior can be passed off innocently in virtually all cases. "I wasn't tailing that guy just because he was Latino. I was concerned he was an illegal alien because he... um... spoke Spanish."

I think you are confusing the law/people's perceptions and objective reality. The law and people perceptions have serious trouble dealing with intent and belief for the reasons you mentioned, therefore we need to judge by words and actions.

However, intent and/ or belief does matter in defining whethor or not someone actually is racist; there is no reason to believe someone can't be racist and subtle. A racist is still a racist even if no one on Earth realises it.

Discrimination is another matter. As Wong said, it's an action. Intent doesn't matter that much since we have actual behavior with real consequences we can use to make our judgements with.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-07-03 09:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:If you ever come here and call me a "chinky", we are going to have problems.

Resisting... urge... to siggy!

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-07-04 03:29am

CaptainChewbacca wrote: Resisting... urge... to siggy!

Give in to the Dark Side...

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-07-04 03:39am

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:
Obviously one is capable of being subconsciously discriminatory or prejudiced, and one must take that into account. But in my mind if one does not INTEND to be racist in making a statement, they generally should not be considered so (except where a clear preudice is displayed such as an idiotic statement like "I'm not racist, but I think all blacks should go back to Africa").

Those 2 statements are self contradictory.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-07-04 08:39am

Racism appears quite often in my day to day life. Some people do seem to avoid me quite well, and make many assumptions about me before they even know my name. Hell, when buying the PC I'm using now, the ass hole at the store kept trying to lead us into the lower priced section because he had some bullshit idea that we must be poor. Either way, I don't think you can have racism on the internet, really. I mean, you can be the kind of ass hole to make stupid statements like "Hispanics are, by nature, going to steal," but you can't effectively discriminate against people.

Note: That statement above is just an example, and one that pisses me off, because many people do seem to keep an extra eye on me and my brother when we go to buy shit. Racist fucks... but I'm over it.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-07-04 08:40am

Actually, I appologize for the above post. I'm just being a dipshit. In this site's history, a bunch of white supremacist ass holes have disciminated strongly against the site's leader. So, there goes that piece of shit.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-07-04 09:02am

Avenue Q wrote: Princeton: Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?

Kate Monster: Sure!

Princeton: Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?

Kate Monster: Uh huh.

Princeton: Well, he's Trekkie Monster, and you're Kate Monster.

Kate Monster: Right.

Princeton: You're both Monsters.

Kate Monster: Yeah.

Princeton: Are you two related?

Kate Monster: What?! Princeton, I'm surprised at you! I find that racist!

Princeton: Oh, well, I'm sorry! I was just asking!

Kate Monster: Well, it's a touchy subject. No, not all Monsters are related.
What are you trying say, huh? That we all look the same to you? Huh, huh, huh?

Princeton: No, no, no, not at all. I'm sorry, I guess that was a little racist.

Kate Monster: I should say so. You should be much more careful when you're talking about the sensitive subject of race.

Princeton: Well, look who's talking!

Kate Monster: What do you mean?

Princeton: What about that special Monster School you told me about?

Kate Monster: What about it?

Princeton: Could someone like me go there?

Kate Monster: No, we don't want people like you-

Princeton: You see?!
You're a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:
Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:
I guess we're both a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:
Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...

Princeton:
But I guess it's true.

Kate Monster:
Between me and you,
I think

Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.

Princeton: Now not big judgments, like who to hire or who to buy a newspaper from -

Kate Monster: No!

Princeton: No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!

Kate Monster: Right!

Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!

Princeton: All right, stop me if you've heard this one.

Kate Monster: Okay!

Princeton: There's a plan going down and there's only one paracute. And there's a rabbi, a priest...

Kate Monster: And a black guy!

Gary Coleman: Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Kate?

Kate Monster: Uh...

Gary Coleman: You were telling a black joke!

Princeton: Well, sure, Gary, but lots of people tell black jokes.

Gary Coleman: I don't.

Princeton: Well, of course you don't - you're black! But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?

Gary Coleman: Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!

Princeton: Now, don't you think that's a little racist?

Gary Coleman: Well, damn, I guess you're right.

Kate Monster:
You're a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:
Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:
We're all a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:
I think that I would
Have to agree with you.

Princeton/Kate Monster:
We're glad you do.

Gary Coleman:
It's sad but true!
Everyone's a little bit racist -
All right!

Kate Monster:
All right!

Princeton:
All right!

Gary Coleman:
All right!
Bigotry has never been
Exclusively white

All:
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it's wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.

Princeton: Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman: Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton: Who?

Gary Coleman: Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster: But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman: No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster: No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman: No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton: Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!

(They laugh at him)

Brian: Hey guys, what are you laughing about?

Gary Coleman: Racism!

Brian: Cool.

Christmas Eve: BRIAN! Come back here! You take out lecycuraburs!

Princeton: What's that mean?

Brian: Um, recyclables. (They laugh) Hey, don't laugh at her!
How many languages do you speak?

Kate Monster: Oh, come off it, Brian!
Everyone's a little bit racist.

Brian:
I'm not!

Princeton:
Oh no?

Brian:
Nope!

How many Oriental wives
Have you got?

Christmas Eve:
What? Brian!

Princeton:
Brian, buddy, where you been?
The term is Asian-American!

Christmas Eve:
I know you are no
Intending to be
But calling me Oriental -
Offensive to me!

Brian:
I'm sorry, honey, I love you.

Christmas Eve:
And I love you.

Brian:
But you're racist, too.

Christmas Eve:
Yes, I know.
The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I'm always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!

Princeton:
Me too!

Kate Monster:
Me too!

Gary Coleman:
I can't even get a taxi!

All:
Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!

Christmas Eve:
Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Me? I'm about as racist as the song. Other people are definitely worse with their racism, simply by the amount of it and its degree, unlike the silly song above. I've only experienced a modicum of racism, mostly directed at my Italian heritege, but none of it was bad enough to warrent any prolongued thoughts other than "Blasted Ethnic Stereotypes!"

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2005-07-04 12:14pm

In response to wong's response to me,
It is racist in the sense that it is making a decision primarily based on race, but it isnt like a certainty or an absolute thing and it isnt "because they are black". It is a general aesthetic preference. I dont see that there is any descrimination taking place against them, just a description that most of the time I dont find most black girls of my general age group physically attractive. You are taking it to be too much of an absolute statement, or are using racist in the widest use of the term, I am not sure which you are choosing at this point.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-04 12:24pm

NapoleonGH wrote:In response to wong's response to me,
It is racist in the sense that it is making a decision primarily based on race, but it isnt like a certainty or an absolute thing and it isnt "because they are black". It is a general aesthetic preference. I dont see that there is any descrimination taking place against them, just a description that most of the time I dont find most black girls of my general age group physically attractive. You are taking it to be too much of an absolute statement, or are using racist in the widest use of the term, I am not sure which you are choosing at this point.

In other words, "it's racist but ... <excuses excuses excuses>".

It fits the definition of the term. I don't particularly care if that makes you uncomfortable. Maybe there's some ethical distinction between "I don't like black people" and "I don't like the way black people look", but both statements are, in fact, racist.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-07-04 04:03pm

Is it a racist preference if you dislike some aesthetic traits of a "race" that are not always present? Let's say, for sake of argument, that in general, I i'm not attracted to purple women because they have spiny cheekbones, however, not all purple women have spiny cheekbones, and I'm still attracted to those that don't.

Spiny cheekbones, however, are a trait limited to purple women. Am I still racist?

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2005-07-04 04:52pm

Perhaps the question should be 'are all forms of racism evil or malevolent?'

Sure, it's racist if I prefer the looks of Vietnamese women over Irish women (or vice versa), but is it evil to do so?
I'd say it's not.

Is it evil if I refuse to rent a room or employ someone based on their race?
Sure it is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-04 04:56pm

Rye wrote:Is it a racist preference if you dislike some aesthetic traits of a "race" that are not always present? Let's say, for sake of argument, that in general, I i'm not attracted to purple women because they have spiny cheekbones, however, not all purple women have spiny cheekbones, and I'm still attracted to those that don't.

Spiny cheekbones, however, are a trait limited to purple women. Am I still racist?

I'd say you were "species-ist", since I'm not aware of any purple human women with spikes sticking out of their cheekbones. But suppose you put up a sign at a restaurant saying "waitress wanted - no one with black curly hair need apply". How much different is that from "waitress wanted - no blacks need apply"? As I said, maybe you can draw an ethical distinction saying that one is morally worse than the other, but they're both racist, because the result will be effectively discriminatory.

Of course, it's not as morally objectionable when it is something of limited value, like a date. But that would be racism too.