Something interesting about B5 Scanner ranges and ability

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Connor MacLeod
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Something interesting about B5 Scanner ranges and ability

Post by Connor MacLeod »

From the Crusade script "to the ends of the Earth" - unfilmed episode:
INT. EXCALIBUR - BRIDGE

We PAN to FIND Gideon in the command chair, Matheson nearby.

GIDEON
What’s our current speed?

MATHESON
Point seven five percent of light speed. We can’t go any faster than that in normal space.

GIDEON
Assuming they have the same limits we do, the laws of physics being what they are, their maximum speed should be roughly the same as ours.

MATHESON
Correct. And they have a two day head start. So unless something happened along the way to slow them down, catching up is going to be difficult. And if we jump to Hyperspace, we could flash right past them, lose them altogether.

GIDEON
Not necessarily. We don’t have to jump light years at a time. Set the jump engines to the maximum distance the scanners can cover. We’ll scan the distance in between, then jump to the furthest perimeter, do another scan, then jump again to the next perimeter, on and on until we find her. It means taking baby steps with the jump engines, but we’ll cover more terrain faster than staying in normal space the whole time.
Interesting point: They have to do "baby jumps" in hyperspace to the edge of scanner range to track down the Hybrid. Matheson's comments indicate that its very difficult to track a ship in realspace from hyperspace (if not impossible) to pinpoint it. This may indiicate that the younger races have difficutly targeting ships from hyperspace for "jump point" tactics without having some sort of predetermined point to rely on (and why they have to lure opponents into a fixed position.)

MATHESON
That’s going to put a hell of a strain on the jump engines, Captain. We could burn them out. Even if that doesn’t happen, we’ll still have to divert most of our power to the engines just to keep going.

GIDEON
Then do so. Plot a course solution and implement. Just leave enough power for gravity control and life support.

MATHESON
Aye, sir.
(to navigation)
Navigation, maintain course and heading. On command, jump to edge of scanner range.

NAVIGATION
Standing by, jump engines on line.

GIDEON
Jump.

EXT. EXCALIBUR - SPACE

Shooting PAST IT toward where a red planet is visible in front of the Excalibur in the far distant BG. A jump point opens, and the Excalibur jumps to

INT. EXCALIBUR - HYPERSPACE

The Excalibur finishes the jump, coming TOWARD CAMERA. It PASSES CAMERA and goes forward just a bit, then another jump point opens, showing normal space in front of the Excalibur.

EXT. EXCALIBUR - SPACE

As it jumps out, coming toward CAMERA. In the distant BG, the red planet we saw a moment ago far in front of the Excalibur is now far behind it.
Interesting point: Infers effective scanner range against a target similar to the hybrid's signature (ie - size, stealth/EW issues, emissions, etc.) may be less than systemary distances - hard to pin down any definite estimates I think, yet the fact its clearly still visible, in the background relative to the excalibur, so that its unlikely to be TREMENDOUSLY distant, either.

Again, this is not an absolute sensor range, but rather an effective one against a particular target or type of targets (at worst, it applies to capital ships alone.)
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Post by [BL]Phalanx »

Very interesting...

We know they can communicate from hyperspace to realspace and vice-versa. After all, you don't see them open up a jump point and beam a message through every time they want to relay a message across large distances. The one time that technique was used, they used a laser (when JMS has stated before that in B5, tachyons are used for FTL comms), and that was because they were worried about the transmission being intercepted.
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Post by The Dark »

Given that their maximum velocity is .75c, their target has a two day advantage, and they are worried about the fact that they cannot see the target and will require multiple jumps, it would seem to be safe to say that B5 sensors have a maximum range of under 36 light-hours (24 light-hours/day*.75 lightspeed*2days).
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Post by [BL]Phalanx »

The Dark wrote:Given that their maximum velocity is .75c, their target has a two day advantage, and they are worried about the fact that they cannot see the target and will require multiple jumps, it would seem to be safe to say that B5 sensors have a maximum range of under 36 light-hours (24 light-hours/day*.75 lightspeed*2days).
It's actually 0.0075 c. "point seven-five percent"

I dunno why Gideon was talking about the laws of physics. There are any number of reasons, but then time dilation isn't going to be one of them.
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Post by The Dark »

[BL]Phalanx wrote:
The Dark wrote:Given that their maximum velocity is .75c, their target has a two day advantage, and they are worried about the fact that they cannot see the target and will require multiple jumps, it would seem to be safe to say that B5 sensors have a maximum range of under 36 light-hours (24 light-hours/day*.75 lightspeed*2days).
It's actually 0.0075 c. "point seven-five percent"

I dunno why Gideon was talking about the laws of physics. There are any number of reasons, but then time dilation isn't going to be one of them.
Oops, yep, my bad, read that as "point seven five of light" instead of "point seven five percent of light." That would drop sensors range to under .36 light-hours, or less than 21.6 light-minutes (just have to move the decimal two spots over).
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Post by Omega-13 »

21 light minutes?
Thats basically from earth to mars....

Something must be wrong with that, though come to think of it, I don't remember anyting else contradicting this...when sheridan attacked Mars, and EArth, his ships were detected at mars by the mars fleet, not from earth base...so it could be true
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Post by Ender »

Jump point tactic wouldn't be useful anyways. If you have FTL sensors, you would (since we assume equal effectiveness) see them coming in hyperspace before they got close enought to open one up in you and could flee. And if they try coming in from realspace, anyone with a range over 10,000 KM can blow them out of the shy before they can get close enough to open one.
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Post by paladin »

Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember a reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
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Post by corporial »

paladin wrote:Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember a reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
They did have hyperspace probes, but they weren't that great. In Movements of Fire and Shadow, a lone Centauri Vorchan was almost able to make it to the Epsilon jumpgate and pull a "bonehead maneuver".
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Post by Stormbringer »

Omega-13 wrote:21 light minutes?
Thats basically from earth to mars....

Something must be wrong with that, though come to think of it, I don't remember anyting else contradicting this...when sheridan attacked Mars, and EArth, his ships were detected at mars by the mars fleet, not from earth base...so it could be true
Keep in mind there was heavy jamming all throught out the neighborhood. And we don't know that Earth didn't see him coming. They may have gotten suckered by his feint.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
They have hyperspace probes, but it's not what you would call accurate. In other words, the probes can detect things coming at you from hyperspace, but they can't tell you what it is ( Well EA probes anyways). But as Stormbringer pointed out, there was heavy jamming in the area. Whether this was sensor or comm. jamming, i forgot. But anyways, in the Episode where Sheridan comes back from Zha'ha'dum with Lorien, the Brakiri ambassador mentioned to Delenn that their probes were tracking an object in hyperspace with an unknown sillouette heading towards B5. So it could be that EA has inferior hyperspace probes compared to other races.

Besides probes and scout ships in hyperspace, you can't really detect enemy ships from normal space. This even applies to the Shadows. In the first major battle with the Shadows ( I forgot the name of the episode), Sheridan's fleet was lurking in hyperspace waiting for Marcus' signal to jump in. The Shadow fleet didn't detect them until they jumped into normal space.
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Post by [BL]Phalanx »

Ender wrote:Jump point tactic wouldn't be useful anyways. If you have FTL sensors, you would (since we assume equal effectiveness) see them coming in hyperspace before they got close enought to open one up in you and could flee. And if they try coming in from realspace, anyone with a range over 10,000 KM can blow them out of the shy before they can get close enough to open one.
If your FTL sensors also tracked into B5's *hyperspace*, it would work. Otherwise, unless you also have probes in hyperspace or some other way to scan into B5's hyperspace, you won't see it coming.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

[BL]Phalanx wrote:
Ender wrote:Jump point tactic wouldn't be useful anyways. If you have FTL sensors, you would (since we assume equal effectiveness) see them coming in hyperspace before they got close enought to open one up in you and could flee. And if they try coming in from realspace, anyone with a range over 10,000 KM can blow them out of the shy before they can get close enough to open one.
If your FTL sensors also tracked into B5's *hyperspace*, it would work. Otherwise, unless you also have probes in hyperspace or some other way to scan into B5's hyperspace, you won't see it coming.
Depends. What method do they use to scan in/out of hyperspace or communicate?

AS I recall, most FTL communication (and sensors) Are tachyonic.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Omega-13 wrote:21 light minutes?
Thats basically from earth to mars....

Something must be wrong with that, though come to think of it, I don't remember anyting else contradicting this...when sheridan attacked Mars, and EArth, his ships were detected at mars by the mars fleet, not from earth base...so it could be true
Thats against a certain kind of vessel or class of vessels. Detection range for a fighter, a cruiser, a station, and a planet or star are all going to differ according to emissions, silhouette, profile, EW measures, Sensor type and quality, etc.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

corporial wrote:
paladin wrote:Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember a reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
They did have hyperspace probes, but they weren't that great. In Movements of Fire and Shadow, a lone Centauri Vorchan was almost able to make it to the Epsilon jumpgate and pull a "bonehead maneuver".
Not quite. The Centauri cruiser was going to destroy the jumpgate (The Centauri were destroying a number of jump gates via this tactic.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

corporial wrote:
paladin wrote:Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember a reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
They did have hyperspace probes, but they weren't that great. In Movements of Fire and Shadow, a lone Centauri Vorchan was almost able to make it to the Epsilon jumpgate and pull a "bonehead maneuver".
Probes aren't really FTL "technology." Theoretically you could station something in hyperspace and use communication tech to lob it back and forth, but its not the same thing as strictly FTL technology.

Apparently they have FTL communications, so that would logically mean they have FTL sensor tech as well (tachyonic, I think.)

Still, the fact they use probes to monitor Hyperspace suggests and reinforces the notion that it would be difficult to scan into and out of realspace normally.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

[BL]Phalanx wrote:Very interesting...

We know they can communicate from hyperspace to realspace and vice-versa. After all, you don't see them open up a jump point and beam a message through every time they want to relay a message across large distances. The one time that technique was used, they used a laser (when JMS has stated before that in B5, tachyons are used for FTL comms), and that was because they were worried about the transmission being intercepted.
You're referring to "Points of Departure" where Sheridan contacted the War Cruiser hunting down the TRigati via hyperspace-beamed comm transmission (which worked because he knew where to beam it... of course...)

Tachyonic communications (and the ability to detect them) was also mentioned in ACTA (from Garibaldi's White Star.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:
Did B5 have FTL sensor tech? I remember reference to hyperspace probes to detect vessels in hyperspace. Also, I remember something about hypertracking an area.
They have hyperspace probes, but it's not what you would call accurate. In other words, the probes can detect things coming at you from hyperspace, but they can't tell you what it is ( Well EA probes anyways). But as Stormbringer pointed out, there was heavy jamming in the area. Whether this was sensor or comm. jamming, i forgot. But anyways, in the Episode where Sheridan comes back from Zha'ha'dum with Lorien, the Brakiri ambassador mentioned to Delenn that their probes were tracking an object in hyperspace with an unknown sillouette heading towards B5. So it could be that EA has inferior hyperspace probes compared to other races.
I'm not sure if this is a limitation of the hyperspace probes or not. As I understand it, sensors are really fucked up in hyperspace, so their detection range drops tremendously (its like nearly impossible to navigate in hyperspace for that matter because of this.)

I'd be hard pressed to think these "probes" were special in any way or different from any sort of probe you might deploy in realspace. Any degradation in quality would be because of the nature of hyperspace and not the capabilities of the probe, I'd think.
Besides probes and scout ships in hyperspace, you can't really detect enemy ships from normal space. This even applies to the Shadows. In the first major battle with the Shadows ( I forgot the name of the episode), Sheridan's fleet was lurking in hyperspace waiting for Marcus' signal to jump in. The Shadow fleet didn't detect them until they jumped into normal space.
Not completely true. Someone posted mention of the ability for detectors to "pick up" objects in real space and avoid opening jump points on them. This would not require tremendous sensor range, however - since Jump Gates really aren't all that large :) The fact the Black Star could not track/locate the EA fleet itself from hyperspace and required the flyer to lure them in supports this (as does what I posted above.)

Also, it could simply be a matter of most "objects" having some sort of beacon that transmits into hyperspace locally to "signal" the presence of an object (communications into hyperspace are difficult, but not impossible.) Most "natural" objects would be stationary, and could be plotted around. A few "rare" Younger races like the Streib appear to have osme rudimentary form of sensors capable of scanning objects in hyperspace or in realspace.

As for the First Ones, yes they can. As per B5 Wars they can scan at least "local" hyperspace from realspace and vice versa. "Local" supposedly varies, but this implies fairly short ranges for the most part.)

Basically, ther eis some limited deteciton ability for the younger racces, but apparently not reliable enough for the kinds of tactics like opening jump points on other vessels. First Ones apparently are better capable of this, and with greater range, but its still limited (although to an unknown degree.) However, only the Vorlons could try jump tactics (since they're the only FO's with jump engines)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Heh, the ansible argument.
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