Lightsaber Combat forms

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YT300000
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Post by YT300000 »

Samored wrote:
YT300000 wrote:Forms 1 and 2 are completely different. Just watch Episode II. Form 1 is Fisto, Form 2 is Dooku.
I never said there weren't different combat forms. I said that, based on their descriptions and the visual evidence, there were not SEVEN forms.
On which you are wrong.
While the Forms each emphasize offense or defense, their way of doing it is totally different in each.
I call bullshit. You're telling me a Form 1 parry is somehow different from a Form V parry. That the mechanics of a saber stroke change based on the style one uses? That's like saying that a savate kick is different from a karate kick or that a Mike Tyson punch is different from a Buster Douglas punch because they had different boxing instructors.
Not every move is different, that would obviously be impossible. For example, Luke (a form 5 user, albeit half-trained) tended to have far more open blocks against blaster bolts than Kit Fisto, who held his sabre closer to his chest. However, the amount of swinging he did was far greater, and a lot less lateral. So while much of the more in-depth characteristics of the sabre styles are mostly RPG contrivances, the basic foundations are enough to show that there infact are 6 different styles.
Also, Form 7 is nothing like the other forms. Its offense and defense at the same time, indistinguishable from each other.
Bullshit again. No evidence to support this and it's a logical contradiction to boot.
I don't have the book so can't provide any exact quotes, but its mentioned a bunch of times in Shatterpoint. The staccato series of moves, seemingly random, all of which however have a purpose. Nothing like any of the other forms.
Differences in weapon techniques arise from differences in the weapon itself. Thus kendo is different from the epee. With the lightsaber there is little, if any, variation in performance and no advantage between edge and point. There could be certain styles that emphasis edge or point but there'd be so little difference it would be hard for an observer to distinguish.
So you're saying all fencers fight the same way? Sure, the differences are hard to spot, but if you look closely, they're there, and sufficient to support the 7 form model, which, IIRC, was created by Nick Gillard, the stunt co-ordinator.

EDIT: Re-added in the last paragraph, not sure how it disappeared.
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Post by Ender »

more then 7 actually, we covered this last time this came up, the moves of Sora Bulq and Mace Windu, both of whom supposedly use the same form, are distinctly different, particularily in footwork (bulq does far more kicking and such then Mace, who does nont). Couple this with the fact that different names are attributed to form seven in different publications, a better argument can be made for 8 styles, or at least a subset of form 7.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Vaapad (Mace and Sora's style) is a subset of form 7, it drifts very near the dark side, Mace mastered it by Sora Bulq let it master him, possibly accounting for Mace's more saber controlled style.
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Post by Eleas »

YT300000 wrote: So you're saying all fencers fight the same way? Sure, the differences are hard to spot, but if you look closely, they're there, and sufficient to support the 7 form model, which, IIRC, was created by Nick Gillard, the stunt co-ordinator.

EDIT: Re-added in the last paragraph, not sure how it disappeared.
Kindly pay attention. Nick Gillard had nothing to do with the Forms retcon - Gillard sensibly created the different styles as an amalgamation of the moves a given Jedi would find the most effective or appealing. In addition to which, the seven Forms are difficult to reconcile with what we see onscreen, as I've said at least twice in this very thread.
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Post by Eleas »

Ender wrote:more then 7 actually, we covered this last time this came up, the moves of Sora Bulq and Mace Windu, both of whom supposedly use the same form, are distinctly different, particularily in footwork (bulq does far more kicking and such then Mace, who does nont). Couple this with the fact that different names are attributed to form seven in different publications, a better argument can be made for 8 styles, or at least a subset of form 7.
Not only that, but it's easily demonstrable that Bulq fights like a rank amateur, irreconcilable with the supposed skill necessitated to even begin study of Vapaad.
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Post by YT300000 »

Eleas wrote:
YT300000 wrote: So you're saying all fencers fight the same way? Sure, the differences are hard to spot, but if you look closely, they're there, and sufficient to support the 7 form model, which, IIRC, was created by Nick Gillard, the stunt co-ordinator.

EDIT: Re-added in the last paragraph, not sure how it disappeared.
Kindly pay attention. Nick Gillard had nothing to do with the Forms retcon - Gillard sensibly created the different styles as an amalgamation of the moves a given Jedi would find the most effective or appealing. In addition to which, the seven Forms are difficult to reconcile with what we see onscreen, as I've said at least twice in this very thread.
Difficult yes, but nonetheless enough to debunk the 3 form theory, leaving the 7/8 form theory as being most likely.

As for the Nick Gillard thing, my mistake.
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Post by Eleas »

YT300000 wrote:Difficult yes, but nonetheless enough to debunk the 3 form theory, leaving the 7/8 form theory as being most likely.

As for the Nick Gillard thing, my mistake.
It is only likely if we have to choose either an moronic theory and an idiotic one. And we don't, as we can clearly see that the Forms theory makes no sense.
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Post by The Dark »

I can think of at least five different forms I've seen:

Dooku's form, which appears to be based primarily off rapier/smallsword fighting.

Yoda's "crack-monkey" form, highly energetic and only good for someone with a high degree of Force mastery.

Luke and Vader's longsword form in the OT.

Windu's almost berserker-like form.

Old Kenobi's form, which is slightly different from Luke and Vader.


All are definitely technically different from each other, and would be at most related schools of a similar art (like the different schools of Aikido) and at furthest completely different arts.
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Post by Samored »

Cykeisme wrote:Hang on a second, Samored... are you arguing that lightsaber forms must be identical because they use slashes and parries, and then continuing to back this up by saying Taekwondo and Karate are the same thing because they use punches and kicks?
The reverse. The meta-style (Form if you will) in this example is one which is a hard, linear style, employing punches and kicks. Karate and Tae Kwon Do are variants (schools) of that Form.
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Post by Samored »

YT300000 wrote:
On which you are wrong.
Prove it. I've asked, several times, what the differences between the forms are. Explain to me, oh enlightened one, what's the fucking difference between Form I and V? Or why Yoda and Qui-Gonn, both Form IV adepts fight in two totally different manners?
So you're saying all fencers fight the same way? Sure, the differences are hard to spot, but if you look closely, they're there, and sufficient to support the 7 form model, which, IIRC, was created by Nick Gillard, the stunt co-ordinator.
Bullshit. I'll hold my breath waiting for you to produce any evidence supporting this.
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Post by YT300000 »

Samored wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
On which you are wrong.
Prove it. I've asked, several times, what the differences between the forms are. Explain to me, oh enlightened one, what's the fucking difference between Form I and V?
Well, had you read my post, you'd have seen the blaster bolt blocking example, and the differences between Luke and Fisto's style thereof. To be more accurate I should have used AotC Anakin since he was more "thoroughly trained," but I can't recall how he block blaster bolts.
Or why Yoda and Qui-Gonn, both Form IV adepts fight in two totally different manners?
They still use the same broad sweeps and big strikes, just that Yoda jumps around in the "monkey on crack" style, likely to compensate for his small stature.
So you're saying all fencers fight the same way? Sure, the differences are hard to spot, but if you look closely, they're there, and sufficient to support the 7 form model, which, IIRC, was created by Nick Gillard, the stunt co-ordinator.
Bullshit. I'll hold my breath waiting for you to produce any evidence supporting this.
I'd have to do a comprehensive analysis of every bit of sabre use shown in the PT, and I simply do not have the time or the DVDs to do this. As such, I propose a semi-concession - I can't at this time prove the 7 (8 ) forms theory, but there are more than just 3.
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Post by Samored »

YT300000 wrote: Well, had you read my post, you'd have seen the blaster bolt blocking example, and the differences between Luke and Fisto's style thereof. To be more accurate I should have used AotC Anakin since he was more "thoroughly trained," but I can't recall how he block blaster bolts.
I did read it. I just couldn't believe you were basing an arguement that there are seven different styles on the observation that two Jedi block blaster bolts differently. Holding the saber at a different angle and moving it around more can't be the sole discriminator between styles.
They still use the same broad sweeps and big strikes, just that Yoda jumps around in the "monkey on crack" style, likely to compensate for his small stature.
No. The only similarity between their fighting style appears to be that they both use a green lightsaber. (with thanks to Eleas for that comparison)
I'd have to do a comprehensive analysis of every bit of sabre use shown in the PT, and I simply do not have the time or the DVDs to do this. As such, I propose a semi-concession - I can't at this time prove the 7 (8 ) forms theory, but there are more than just 3.
Good luck. Based on movie evidence Jedi fight so individualistically there may be 10,000 styles.[/quote]
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Post by Ace Pace »

YT300000 reports he has massive real life issues and will return in a few days.
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Post by YT300000 »

Really sorry about that, I had a continuous string of things to attend to, and even now have only about 5 minutes to log on here. I just asked Ace Pace to make that post so it wouldn't seem I'm trying to duck out from this debate. Considering that I won't be getting much (any?) more time for SDN, since pretty much all my computer time will be for online summer school, I'll just semi-eloquently conceed this.
Samored wrote:
YT300000 wrote: Well, had you read my post, you'd have seen the blaster bolt blocking example, and the differences between Luke and Fisto's style thereof. To be more accurate I should have used AotC Anakin since he was more "thoroughly trained," but I can't recall how he block blaster bolts.
I did read it. I just couldn't believe you were basing an arguement that there are seven different styles on the observation that two Jedi block blaster bolts differently. Holding the saber at a different angle and moving it around more can't be the sole discriminator between styles.
To be honest, that's the only thing I could really remember about their fighting styles.
They still use the same broad sweeps and big strikes, just that Yoda jumps around in the "monkey on crack" style, likely to compensate for his small stature.
No. The only similarity between their fighting style appears to be that they both use a green lightsaber. (with thanks to Eleas for that comparison)
I'd have to do a comprehensive analysis of every bit of sabre use shown in the PT, and I simply do not have the time or the DVDs to do this. As such, I propose a semi-concession - I can't at this time prove the 7 (8 ) forms theory, but there are more than just 3.
Good luck. Based on movie evidence Jedi fight so individualistically there may be 10,000 styles.
I'll look closely at this the next time I get around to watching the movies, but seeing as I can't defend my position at all, conceeded.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Under form II: MakashiThis style is based on the Spanish style of fencing, "La Destreza Verdadera," which is often called the dance of sabres or the swords of truth; this style is fluid yet very rigid.

Ok, some sabre technique can be seen by Dooku. Emphasized by the curved grip on his lightsabre. But Spanish fencing? No. He does not even come close to anything like spanish fencing. I've seen Maestro Martinez fence and Dooku moved and fought nothing like that. It's not even rapier swordplay as he makes too many slashes and wide arced cuts.

I have to agree with someone else who noted that the entire concept of forms in Star Wars for lightsabre fighting needs to be thrown out. The descriptions simply aren't supported by the onscreen fight scenes.
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Post by Eleas »

Mobiboros wrote: I have to agree with someone else who noted that the entire concept of forms in Star Wars for lightsabre fighting needs to be thrown out. The descriptions simply aren't supported by the onscreen fight scenes.
I would support that they could be dealing more with the approach to fencing - the mindset you enter when in the midst of combat. Seeing as how this ought to be pretty tightly intertwined with your approach to the Force, it could very well be so. The problem is that this theory is a bit too speculative; it's essentially unfalsifiable, in fact.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Eleas wrote:I would support that they could be dealing more with the approach to fencing - the mindset you enter when in the midst of combat. Seeing as how this ought to be pretty tightly intertwined with your approach to the Force, it could very well be so. The problem is that this theory is a bit too speculative; it's essentially unfalsifiable, in fact.
This I could maybe see given the visuals. Fencing is primarily about economy of motion to create faster bloacks/parries/attacks. And Dooku at least did seem more economical in motion than other lightsabre fighters who seemed prone to wide arcing attacks, sometimes spinning around and flipping, whirling the blades, etc... So I could see if maybe the 'forms' actually just described the mental approach to combat rather than the actual physical techniques.
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Post by Samored »

On the off chance anyone is still interested, here's my take on lightsaber combat.

As the weapons technology of the light saber was developed, the need for a form of combat arose. Thus Shii-Cho was born. Ancient sword-fighting traditions held key principles of blade combat that were implemented by early Jedi Masters in the technical tactics of Shii-Cho. The Jedi (and Sith) use the light saber to focus and deepen their connection with the Force

Shii-Cho includes the following basic techniques and concepts:

attack, a set of attacks aimed at different body zones
parry, a set of blocks to thwart any attack in the specified body zones
body target zones (1, head, 2, left arm, 3, right arm, 4, back, 5, left leg, 6, right leg)
training drills called velocities

Younglings, the Jedi initiate rank, first learn Shii-Cho before they begin a Padawan apprenticeship with a Jedi Master.

There are two broad forms of Shii-Cho edge and point based; otherwise known as circular or linear styles, when a Jedi begins Padawan apprenticeship he or she will typically select a form that best suits both philosophy and physiology.

Point based Shii-Cho is based on the ancient art of fencing. Typified by the Makashi school, point-based Shii-Cho appears very elegant, powerful, and extremely precise, allowing the user to attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out. Point-based Shii-Cho relies on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts. The blade manipulation is very refined and requires much focus, but the results can be extremely potent. However, against ranged weapons, point-based Shii-Cho is less effective thus, by the time of the Clone Wars, few Knights within the Jedi Order practice this technique.

Shien is a typical example of a circular, edge based form reliant on high blocks and powerful downward slashes of the blade. Shien is reminiscent of the ancient art of kendo. Visually Shien appears quite stunning with the blade flashing and whirling in all directions. Primary target zones are an opponent’s hands, limbs, and head. Practitioners of Shien will press the assault, using wide, sweeping blows in an attempt to overwhelm the opponent with brute strength.

There are three mental states of light saber combat based on the Jedi's attunement to the Force and his or her mindset.

All force-users practice Ataru to some degree or variation. Ataru is a Zen-like state of communion with the Force. A Jedi Master focuses on the Force, letting it flow deeply throughout his entire physicality, once attunement is reached incredible feats of physical prowess are possible, even allowing the Master overcome the limitations of old age. Ataru practitioners use the Force to guide their attacks and defenses and aid in their acrobatics. Spinning, jumping and running very fast and very high, masters of Ataru are sometimes only seen as a blur.

There are multiple examples or variations of Ataru-based combat technique, two are Sokan and Dun Moch. Developed by the ancient Jedi Knights during the Great Sith War, the Ataru combat school of Sokan combined tactics that allowed for evasion and mobility with preternatural kinetic motions. Sokan involves swift strokes of the light saber, aimed towards the opponent's vital areas in addition to quick tumbles and movements. Combatants make use of large amounts of terrain, trying to maneuver their opponents into vulnerable areas. Dun möch is a Sith variation of Ataru. Sith light saber combat doctrine aimed to completely dominate an opponent's spirit through whatever means possible. Dun möch commonly involved spoken taunts, jeers, and jests to expose the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts. Other variations on dun möch involved usage of the Force to throw large, weighty objects during combat, which both distracts the opponent from the battle and could potentially cause damage. A particularly insidious variation is to employ mind controlling force powers to confuse, disorient, or coerce the opponent.

Soresu- Soresu utilizes motions occurring very close to the body to achieve near-total protection, efficiently expending as little energy as possible to execute these moves. A Soresu adept strives to center within the Force to such a degree that his or her ability to anticipate and react to threats exposes as little body target zones (open areas) as is possible, making a well-trained practitioner nearly invincible. Practitioners of Soresu comfortably remain on the defensive until their opponents tire or make a mistake, only then do they strike offensively.

The third common Force-state is called Vaapad, fully developed by Jedi Master Mace Windu. Vaapad requires intense focus, high levels of skill, and a deep connection to the Force. Only three Jedi have ever mastered Vaapad fully: Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, and Sora Bulq, who instructed Quinlan Vos in a few of its basics. Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba helped Windu develop Vaapad, but Bulq and Billaba proved too weak to master the flow of the Light and Dark Sides, and fell to the Dark Side.

Vaapad, focuses the use of the Force and emotion to fuel attacks, channeling negative emotions most closely associated with the Dark Side into offense, seeking to not only anticipate and counter an opponents offensive actions but his defensive reactions to attacks to forge the shortest path to victory.

Vaapad practitioners utilize sleek, fast, and direct movements combination with very advanced light saber techniques involving Force-powered jumps and motions. The weapon forms often use very open movements resulting in an unpredictable, seemingly disjointed, battle style. The staccato swings and flow of the form make it seem as if the attacks are not linked, or appear inept; but in reality, it is a strategy to confuse the opponent and goad him into making a critical mistake.
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