[Predator] Racism on SD.net forums

[Darth Wong]

I don't get most of you people at all. What the hell is so difficult admitting that preferences, sexual or otherwise, if based on something like skin color etc, are racist in nature?

Because people don't like being thrown into a group that contains groups like the KKK, Nazis, and Aryan Nation. Is that really that difficult to understand?

What's difficult to understand is why this emotional reaction should be elevated into a bunch of pseudo-rationalized bullshit by people who think that such idiocy will fly on a forum where you are expressly told to stick to rational arguments.

I for one wouldn't want to be considered in the same group with those assholes just because I have a preference for a certain type of girl.

Too bad. A guy who says (for example) that he only likes blonde, blue-eyed white girls is not a racist according to the apologists, even though they can't offer up any reason not to classify them as racists except to say that they don't like it (either that, or the "I just dislike the way black people look, and that's not racist" bullshit).

[Hokalus]

On the other hand, a woman's bodyfat ratio (and thus breast size) and hips size are both indicators of fertility. It is rational to try to find the most fertile woman if one is looking to procreate, so I don't think that looking for such a preference makes one discriminatory in a bad way. They are not discriminating for irrational reasons.

I never said that all discrimination was for irrational reasons. Though even in the case of fertility indicators there are still plenty of blokes who like very small or very large breasts.

Similarly, women ovger 80 are less likely to be fertile than women of your age. How many octogenarians have you dated? None? You racist bastard.

I think less likely to be fertile is a bit of an understatement . I think the term your looking for is ageist but more likely realist.

[Chmee]

I don't get most of you people at all. What the hell is so difficult admitting that preferences, sexual or otherwise, if based on something like skin color etc, are racist in nature?

Because people don't like being thrown into a group that contains groups like the KKK, Nazis, and Aryan Nation. Is that really that difficult to understand?

What's difficult to understand is why this emotional reaction should be elevated into a bunch of pseudo-rationalized bullshit by people who think that such idiocy will fly on a forum where you are expressly told to stick to rational arguments.

I for one wouldn't want to be considered in the same group with those assholes just because I have a preference for a certain type of girl.

Too bad. A guy who says (for example) that he only likes blonde, blue-eyed white girls is not a racist according to the apologists, even though they can't offer up any reason not to classify them as racists except to say that they don't like it (either that, or the "I just dislike the way black people look, and that's not racist" bullshit).

I just want to be sure I follow the logic here ... if I prefer redheads to blondes, is that racism?

I'm not sure an aesthetic preference translates to racism unless you are implying that those you don't aesthetically prefer are somehow inferior because of your preference.

[Kamakazie Sith]

What's difficult to understand is why this emotional reaction should be elevated into a bunch of pseudo-rationalized bullshit by people who think that such idiocy will fly on a forum where you are expressly told to stick to rational arguments.

It's not an emotional reaction. See below.

Too bad. A guy who says (for example) that he only likes blonde, blue-eyed white girls is not a racist according to the apologists, even though they can't offer up any reason not to classify them as racists except to say that they don't like it (either that, or the "I just dislike the way black people look, and that's not racist" bullshit).

The reason not to classify them is that you don't have a choice who you're sexually attracted.

Racism is a choice. Now, if they are making a choice to not date black women because they are black (irrational reason) then that is racism. However, not wanting to date black women because to that person they have unattractive (rational reason) features is not racist.

What makes discrimination racist is when the basis is one of prejudice. Prejudice being a judgement formed without knowledge, or an irrational hatred of something.

Discrimination is not always bad. One of the dictionary definitions of discrimination is - The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment

Prejudice and discernment are pretty much opposites of each other.

[Master of Ossus]

The reason not to classify them is that you don't have a choice who you're sexually attracted.

Racism is a choice. Now, if they are making a choice to not date black women because they are black (irrational reason) then that is racism. However, not wanting to date black women because to that person they have unattractive (rational reason) features is not racist.

I hadn't realized that KKK members could get off on a charge of racism simply by stating that black people scare them--an emotional response, no?

Prejudice and discernment are pretty much opposites of each other.

Really? So if someone discerns that a black person is a good student for a black I should classify that as a non-prejudiced statement? After all, he is observing that this guy is better at school than other people of his race.

In order to be prejudiced, one must first draw distinctions between people based on... something. In that sense they are not antonyms, and one is in fact a prerequisite for another.

[Darth Wong]

I just want to be sure I follow the logic here ... if I prefer redheads to blondes, is that racism?

Are redheads a race? If they were, I suppose that would be.

I'm not sure an aesthetic preference translates to racism unless you are implying that those you don't aesthetically prefer are somehow inferior because of your preference.

Why don't you look up the word "discrimination" in an English dictionary, since it appears that English must not be your first language?

[Darth Wong]

It's not an emotional reaction. See below.

Yes it is, since your defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with the definition of racism.

The reason not to classify them is that you don't have a choice who you're sexually attracted.

Nowhere in the definition of racism is it stated that it is a conscious choice rather than an instinctive reaction, moron. In fact, I addressed this exact argument earlier, and you obviously ignored it. READ THE FUCKING THREAD, you blithering idiot. It's one thing to make a bad argument, it's quite another to blithely ignore the fact that the person you're talking to has already addressed it earlier.

[Lord Revan]

I'd say that if dislike characteristics typical of certain race, even when present in other races as well (for example black generally have large noses, so it's ok to not like large noses, but it's not ok dislike only blacks because of it.)

[Master of Ossus]

I'd say that if dislike characteristics typical of certain race, even when present in other races as well (for example black generally have large noses, so it's ok to not like large noses, but it's not ok dislike only blacks because of it.)

That makes no sense. "It's not racism because I apply it to others, also, even though it applies to everyone of a particular race." What if I were to go around saying that people with dark skin need not apply to be my new secretary? Should that not be considered racism if I also apply it to whites who have recently spent time in a tanning salon? What if a university were to go around claiming that it wasn't racist to prevent people with black hair from applying? Sure, they're banning some whites from going there, but the fact that virtually no blacks can attend this university doesn't bother you or strike you as being a racist policy?

[Edi]

Because people don't like being thrown into a group that contains groups like the KKK, Nazis, and Aryan Nation. Is that really that difficult to understand?

Boo-fucking-hoo, cry me a river! Prejudice is prejudice, whether racism or of some other kind. It's ugly, unpleasant and causes a lot of grief, but that is no fucking excuse to refuse to recognize one's own prejudices.

I've got irrational, indoctrinated prejudices of exactly that type, just not aimed at a specific race, but a specific nationality. I know what it is like to understand how and why sick fucks like Hitler could blithely order genocide, and you can bet that I wish I didn't. I'll never be free of that shit, but by acknowledging my prejudice I can at least try and mitigate its effects, fight it and suppress it and keep it to myself.

So if you think you're going to get any sympathy for people who want to engage in dozen different sorts of bullfuckery just because they are too fucking chickenshit to take an honest look in the mirror, you have another think coming.

I for one wouldn't want to be considered in the same group with those assholes just because I have a preference for a certain type of girl.

Depends on how narrow your preferences for women are. I've got some preferences but they are not tied to race in any way. A hot woman of any type attracts me. Redheads, brunettes, blondes, black, Asian, no difference whatsoever in those labels, because in the end it is the whole package that makes them look hot, not just some single feature.

Edi

[Lord Revan]

I'd say that if dislike characteristics typical of certain race, even when present in other races as well (for example black generally have large noses, so it's ok to not like large noses, but it's not ok dislike only blacks because of it.)

That makes no sense. "It's not racism because I apply it to others, also, even though it applies to everyone of a particular race." What if I were to go around saying that people with dark skin need not apply to be my new secretary? Should that not be considered racism if I also apply it to whites who have recently spent time in a tanning salon? What if a university were to go around claiming that it wasn't racist to prevent people with black hair from applying? Sure, they're banning some whites from going there, but the fact that virtually no blacks can attend this university doesn't bother you or strike you as being a racist policy?

Ok let make myself more clear, I meant it's ok dislike a characteristic, but only the characteristic (so if a black person (for what ever reason) don't have a large nose, you can like her/him as (s)he doesn't have the characteristic you dislike) and it's not racist to dislike large noses. Also I would limit to characteristics that aren't race specific (for example "black" skin color) as using these as limitations is indeed IMHO racist.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I hadn't realized that KKK members could get off on a charge of racism simply by stating that black people scare them--an emotional response, no?

A bullshit response. You know as well as I do that the fear is motivated by a lack, or refusal, of understanding. IE - It is a irrational response.

Really? So if someone discerns that a black person is a good student for a black I should classify that as a non-prejudiced statement? After all, he is observing that this guy is better at school than other people of his race.

Not at all. Their basis is prejudice - They believe blacks make poor students. Therefore, that makes it racist.

In order to be prejudiced, one must first draw distinctions between people based on... something. In that sense they are not antonyms, and one is in fact a prerequisite for another.

Actually in order for something to be prejudice it must be - preconceived, a judgement or opinion formed without just grounds or before sufficent knowledge. IE - Blacks make poor students.

Basically. We're talking about a man who does not date black women because he finds their features unattractive. - This is not preconceived.

[Master of Ossus]

Ok let make myself more clear, I meant it's ok dislike a characteristic, but only the characteristic (so if a black person (for what ever reason) don't have a large nose, you can like her/him as (s)he doesn't have the characteristic you dislike) and it's not racist to dislike large noses. Also I would limit to characteristics that aren't race specific (for example "black" skin color) as using these as limitations is indeed IMHO racist.

So what about characteristics like the ones I mentioned? Ones that don't ONLY apply to specific races but almost always apply to them? Are you saying a university could escape the label of racism even if they come up with admissions rules that virtually prevent blacks from applying?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yes it is, since your defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with the definition of racism.

I thought it did, considering I'm examining the word discrimination. Which is a key part of the definition of racism.

Bear with me.

Discrimination has several meanings, all similiar, but different. Racist discrimination to me is;

Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit

or

n 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discrimination

Prejudice being - A preconceived judgement.

Thus, how can someone being sexy or not be a preconceived judgement?

Nowhere in the definition of racism is it stated that it is a conscious choice rather than an instinctive reaction, moron. In fact, I addressed this exact argument earlier, and you obviously ignored it. READ THE FUCKING THREAD, you blithering idiot. It's one thing to make a bad argument, it's quite another to blithely ignore the fact that the person you're talking to has already addressed it earlier.

Sorry about that.

Are we all racist in some way then?

[Lord Revan]

We're talking about a man who does not date black women because he finds their features unattractive. - This is not preconceived.

the question we (and him) need to ask is does he he find these features unattrative only because they're present in black person or would he find the same features unattrative if present in member of nother race.

[Master of Ossus]

I hadn't realized that KKK members could get off on a charge of racism simply by stating that black people scare them--an emotional response, no?

A bullshit response. You know as well as I do that the fear is motivated by a lack, or refusal, of understanding. IE - It is a irrational response.

I hadn't realized that feelings had to be rational. Remember: you're trying to argue that it's not racism unless it "is a choice." How do you rationalize these positions? Did he CHOOSE to be afraid of black people? What if his parents, or whoever else, conditioned him to be afraid of them?

Not at all. Their basis is prejudice - They believe blacks make poor students. Therefore, that makes it racist.

But in order to do that they had to first be able to draw distinctions between good students and not-so-good ones, and they had to be able to differentiate blacks from other types of students.

Actually in order for something to be prejudice it must be - preconceived, a judgement or opinion formed without just grounds or before sufficent knowledge. IE - Blacks make poor students.

Basically. We're talking about a man who does not date black women because he finds their features unattractive. - This is not preconceived.

What does this have to do with anything? In order to form these preconceived notions, one must first find a way to distinguish between things (not necessarily ones related to their beliefs about a person).

[Eleas]

We're talking about a man who does not date black women because he finds their features unattractive. - This is not preconceived.

the question we (and him) need to ask is does he he find these features unattrative only because they're present in black person or would he find the same features unattrative if present in member of nother race.

In my case, I think I would. But really, it's more than that. Look at Devon Aoki, for example, who treads the line between looking oddly beautiful and just plain weird. A couple of what one might consider unattractive features can make a face more appealing than bland perfection. It gives character.

[Lord Revan]

Ok let make myself more clear, I meant it's ok dislike a characteristic, but only the characteristic (so if a black person (for what ever reason) don't have a large nose, you can like her/him as (s)he doesn't have the characteristic you dislike) and it's not racist to dislike large noses. Also I would limit to characteristics that aren't race specific (for example "black" skin color) as using these as limitations is indeed IMHO racist.

So what about characteristics like the ones I mentioned? Ones that don't ONLY apply to specific races but almost always apply to them? Are you saying a university could escape the label of racism even if they come up with admissions rules that virtually prevent blacks from applying?

I was talking about sexual attractiveness only, so admission to university or job is irrelevant (if ask me, I think that if university has any other biological admission requiverment, then that the person is human it's racist)

[Darth Wong]

Ok let make myself more clear, I meant it's ok dislike a characteristic, but only the characteristic (so if a black person (for what ever reason) don't have a large nose, you can like her/him as (s)he doesn't have the characteristic you dislike) and it's not racist to dislike large noses. Also I would limit to characteristics that aren't race specific (for example "black" skin color) as using these as limitations is indeed IMHO racist.

So what about characteristics like the ones I mentioned? Ones that don't ONLY apply to specific races but almost always apply to them? Are you saying a university could escape the label of racism even if they come up with admissions rules that virtually prevent blacks from applying?

I was talking about sexual attractiveness only, so admission to university or job is irrelevant (if ask me, I think that if university has any other biological admission requiverment, then that the person is human it's racist)

Why is it so fucking hard for some people to understand that it is impossible to crack open your own psyche and figure out what truly drives your preferences, so this is nothing but a worthless bullshit red herring? The point is that if you discriminate based on race, you fit the definition of a racist. All of this hand-waving is nothing more than irrational evasion.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I hadn't realized that feelings had to be rational. Remember: you're trying to argue that it's not racism unless it "is a choice." How do you rationalize these positions? Did he CHOOSE to be afraid of black people? What if his parents, or whoever else, conditioned him to be afraid of them?

I'm conceding this part of the argument. Wong already addressed it early.

But in order to do that they had to first be able to draw distinctions between good students and not-so-good ones, and they had to be able to differentiate blacks from other types of students.

True, but at some point they made a preconceived judgement. IE - They concluded that because the majority of not-so-good students were black then that must mean that all or most black students are not-so-good students. They failed to consider the evidence against their conclusion, they also failed to consider that they are dealing with less than 1% of all black students in the US.

What does this have to do with anything? In order to form these preconceived notions, one must first find a way to distinguish between things (not necessarily ones related to their beliefs about a person).

What I'm asking is how can whether or not someone is attractive be preconceived? How can it be prejudice?

[Darth Wong]

What I'm asking is how can whether or not someone is attractive be preconceived? How can it be prejudice?

Your IQ seems to be dropping by the minute. It doesn't fucking matter why you discriminate; the point is that you do.

[Lord Revan]

Why is it so fucking hard for some people to understand that it is impossible to crack open your own psyche and figure out what truly drives your preferences, so this is nothing but a worthless bullshit red herring? The point is that if you discriminate based on race, you fit the definition of a racist. All of this hand-waving is nothing more than irrational evasion.

so you think disliking large noses, would be racist only because it happens to prominent feature on certain race. My whole point is that you don't have to like everything, but if don't like certain features on certain races, but not others that can considerd racist.

[Kamakazie Sith]

What I'm asking is how can whether or not someone is attractive be preconceived? How can it be prejudice?

Your IQ seems to be dropping by the minute. It doesn't fucking matter why you discriminate; the point is that you do.

Alright. I concede.

[Kamakazie Sith]

so you think disliking large noses, would be racist only because it happens to prominent feature on certain race. My whole point is that you don't have to like everything, but if don't like certain features on certain races, but not others that can considerd racist.

But not all Jews have large noses. What we were arguing is not even what they are talking about.

Think about it. We're arguing discrimination based off features, but calling it something else entirely.

[Lord Revan]

so you think disliking large noses, would be racist only because it happens to prominent feature on certain race. My whole point is that you don't have to like everything, but if don't like certain features on certain races, but not others that can considerd racist.

But not all Jews have large noses. What we were arguing is not even what they are talking about.

nor do all black have them either, but if you dislike black for large noses, but not jews for the same feature you're racist.